This is where I think we need to change our mindset. We all know we can do big damage once we land certain initial moves or make good reads. What I don’t see discussed enough is how we can condition the opponent to react in certain ways so we can land those moves more often or increase our chances of making those good reads. Muscle power is scary. Let’s work out how to better scare people into doing what we want them to do.
What we want them to do is stand still for h.spd (dmg+oki), but for that we need to stop them jumping OR pressing buttons (to get close enough)…,
I really have a hard time wrapping my head around that… maybe it’s the other way around? We DONT want them to sit like a duck and SPD is the tool to make them stop?
You can’t condition someone when your opponent has nothing to fear, it’s that simple.
Making our whole gameplan about landing one move (heavy SPD) is too narrow. And it makes it too easy for the opponent to negate our gameplan. We can SPD them out of the air too so jumping isn’t a problem if we expect it. We’ve also got alot of other interesting and unique tools at our disposal. We’ve got armour and projectile dodging moves. We’ve got big damage moves and combos which can be landed consistently in the right situations. We can vtrigger into some of the biggest combos and resets in the game. But the 8 frame input lag makes it harder to react or make the reads to begin with. Some characters can get away with running on auto pilot or purely on reaction. We excel when we make the hard read. So our gameplan should be how can we create situations where the opponent is more likely to do what we expect.
Just as an example, one of my favourite things in the world is using a whiffed knee hammer from long range as a shimmy into L SPD. You do it from just outside L SPD range and you land just inside L SPD range. It can lock the opponent in place blocking, can go airborne over low attacks, hits someone dashing in. It’s not perfect, it can be beaten, but its like a smoke screen into a long range SPD. And landing long range SPD’s gets a reaction.
If it keeps working great, but if after 1-2 times the opponent starts reacting in a different way that’s fine too, because its a reaction I can force just by throwing out a long range whiffed knee hammer. And I’ll have a pretty good idea of what that will be next time around. So now I’ve started working on the next step, better dealing with their reactions to the knee hammer to avoid the SPD. If they jump or back dash maybe sHK is my best option to either hit them or let them move themselves back towards the corner without too much commitment of my own. If they are throwing out a move that beats my knee hammer or hits me before the SPD goes active, maybe a certain normal or ex RBG catches them.
Another thing I’ve been working on is using vskill against projectile/long range characters. You can make someone want to come to you which is an interesting prospect as Zangief. It’s a gamble that solves the range problem. But at what point in this gamble are the odds or risk still in our favour? How much grey health is worth racking up? At what point do people want to come in to turn that grey damage into red damage? How do they tend to approach when they do come and what’s the best way to handle the approach? Can we do something that’s relatively low risk so we don’t take a jab and lose that grey health?
I think this is where the untapped potential is. The constant hard/close knockdown meaty mixup game is great and still important when we can get there. But how can we be more scary and create predictable or ideal situations from neutral or even when we are stuck in defense?
I wonder how OP it would be to have headbutt be a CC. That would be awesome, but probably too good.
Dunno about you guys but Im nervous about this patch after CPT. It’s a once a year patch and if they don’t do anything to improve gief…just have to accept him for how he is for one year
I know its a running joke, but I truly half expect him to be WORSE after the patch lol. Watch them nerf his charging st. hp, or some ridiculousness. I am really afraid for them giving Gief something good, then taking away double, as Dee-Jay in ultra…
If the trend from 4 continues then yeah he’ll get nerfed pretty hard, not even kidding. I expect cr.jab and ex-spd will get worse.
naah, they wont change anything.
not a single thing…why?
Because by the end of this years CPT no one will even remember he’s in the game
Firstly Vince, excellent post. It’s given us a lot to think about. Hope I can add to the discussion.
I think your too subjective and generalizing on your comparison. Better to go by the official SFV trait breakdown. And for Big Z it is:
Power: 5
Health: 5
Mobility: 1
Technique: 2
Range: 3
Compared to Ryu’s
Power: 4
Health: 3
Mobility: 3
Technique: 2
Range: 4
When we look specifically at mobility and range, it means the Atomic Ace is a moving wall or tank. And he has to be true to himself and play as such.
SFV has once again refined street fighter, and we can’t go into this game with the same mindset as SF4. That’s the #1 fallacy Gief players are making. We have to understand the nature of SFV and where Z fits within that context. Let me remind you that safe play and set play are concepts that are almost intentionally omitted from the SFV vocabulary, by design choice.
What that means, is somewhere in the three jabs, you can remain to play SF4, by completing that combo for 80 damage. Or you can elect to play SFV, and make a read for another block, jump, back dash or reversal. To which you have options, depending on the size of your bet.
Mobility: 1
This means Gief won’t be able to control the spacing as well as his opponent. Their faster walk speed allows their attacks to make contact more easily. So that puts Big Z on the defensive more often than not. So our approach has to be more defensive based, as opposed to offense. Or at least, until we can close the gap, get within range, to be able to go on the offense. So in defense is where you will see those cannon pokes; Stand HP or Stand HK used more effectively, given their slow ass nature. But in defense, the headbutt is so much better with its sleek and sexy hit box - just doesn’t have Crush Counter appeal!
Effectively, there’s only one significant way to build VT. Take damage. Directly or from the absorbing with the V-Skill. It’s entirely and realistically a comeback factor.
You need to insert the V-Skill, effective from frame 1, to interrupt their pressure. Make a read and absorb anywhere from ONE to FOUR hits, to take back the frame advantage. Ironically, SFV Zangief is not user friendly, because you MUST have intricate knowledge of their buttons to V-Skill properly.
Goes against SFV NO SET PLAY POLICY, but hey, I’m for it!
From afar it never is. The more white damage you carry, the more reward you give them. They get a nice Xmas bonus at the end of it all. And its also near impossible to build two VT’s in a single round, and live to tell about it. It becomes worth it, when you can dish it back, preferably way ahead, break even, or slightly behind but can fend off their offence during your cool down period to pocket the life difference.
How much grey health is worth racking up? Probably none, unless you want to sacrifice some life to close the gap with a V-Body into forward dash. But I would consider gambling the white damage, to put them in a mix-up. Still, I wouldn’t recommend whacking out the V-Skill, and maxing it out like a credit card. Keep it in your pants and use it wisely for read based plays.
They approach with better mobility, greater than 1. We can fend them off with our Range of 3. But every exchange involves risk, if they read you right, they can counter, and taketh what you giveth in white life. And then, they’ll thank you for your generosity =)
Perhaps they could make that Zangief’s EX Crush Counter or V-Crush Counter, in the 2023 update.
F+MP+HP
Playing around with this concept a bit more, you don’t need to gamble a huge amount of grey life, or even actually get 2 vtriggers in a round to make use of this. You can sit back, absorb 1-2 fireballs, then lariat and jump the fireballs after that until your health recovers. Rinse and repeat until they react. If they let you continue to do it, you might eventually get a free vtrigger. If they throw a really slow projectile you might even have time to whiff an SPD to build some ex bar. But it doesn’t usually get that far. They either get bored, or they get frustrated that their drawn out game of getting free damage against the big slow wrestler has turned into a drawn out game of the big slow wrestler getting free v bar. 1 of 2 things usually happens from there. They start to tentatively follow their fireballs in trying to land a hit to confirm the smaller grey damage, or they flick the switch completely and rush in to close the range and catch you on the back foot.
From there, how you handle the situation depends on the character I guess. And this might not work as well against certain characters like FANG’s multi hit projectiles and poison. But it can work quite well against Guile for example which is the matchup that pushed me in this direction. I got sick of spending between 20 seconds to a whole round patiently working my way in, usually with little success. But if he’s moving in at you, not only is he closing the range, he’s no longer sitting on charge for a boom or flash kick. You might take some damage when they approach but you were probably going to lose that trying to get in yourself anyway. Otherwise you might catch them on the way in, confuse them or throw them out of their comfort zone in the matchup.
I think its worth exploring more. At worst it could be something to add to the bag of tricks as a bit of a circuit breaker when having trouble against a projectile character. At best it could become quite strong once you get used to dealing with the different approach tactics people will use with each character.
Nash getting his OP V-Trigger after 2 bars is ridiculous. 2 free escapes a round anyone? Bull. Shit. I spent half the match working him back into the corner and he’s out. Horrible 7-3 matchup and every other player online is a Nash. Everyone else I’m pretty much cool with. Just fix this matchup and I’m happy.
p.s I think Gief’s V-Trigger is awful. It’s just a massive gimmick.
I used to think Gief was ass when I first picked him up.
A few things I’ve learned over the last couple weeks.
-Flex is great for getting in and countering pokes. You gotta risk that grey health, but it works surprisingly well. Try to lookout for the inevitable forward dash grab attempt and cancel it with the hit animation.
-V-Trigger is more versatile than I originally thought. Not only do you score great damage if it fully hits, but it also puts the opponent on the defensive if it’s activated. I swear all people do is put themselves in the corner. Too scared to press buttons or fireballs in fear of getting sucked in. Great for closing the gap.
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EX Air SPD has godlike range. I love this move.
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Headbutt is also godlike. Amazing range and hitbox, plus it combos.
-RBG is great when used raw within sweep distance. Cancelling it from lights is a dead giveaway of an attempt to use it. People usually hold up after pressure anyway. Using it raw gives them less reaction time and it’ll grab people out of the startup of their pokes. “But why not just do SPD? It’s safer!” In the corner, I would agree with you. However RBG is preferable mid-screen because RBG moves them closer to the corner when it connects.
Zangief is still one of the hardest characters to use no doubt. Patience and good reads are vital to success. However I am having a blast using him and winning is incredibly rewarding.
Hmm raw rbg at sweep range. That sounds crazy enough to work. I’ll give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion and I agree with your other points. Good post.
My two cents:
-Lariat has to improve. 9 frames of startup is crazy. Make it 7 at least. Also has to hit crouchers and hopefully lose some recovery, but the important part is Startup/crouchers.
-If Lariat remains like it is, down+HP should improve to be a better AA. Right now it can be punched out of it by some random air moves. Ideally you shouldn’t be hittable on the elbow itself, cause Ken can Fierce Punch you out of it cleanly, and of course Ryu will sometimes use his jumping short kick and hit you out of it due to the detached hitbox. Other, better characters have AAs that need less prediction, are safer and are less punisheable.
-RBG is almost useless. Needs to completely lose the pause before grab. If the enemy is in range, the next frame needs to grab, period. It can be dodged by walking backwards, cause Zangief will stop where the enemy was and miss the grab. Its use is reduced to a shenanigan after light kick, and one read per fight where you use ExRGB to eat a roundhouse and grab the enemy. After that, people learn and don’t eat it, if they didn’t jump out of it or something.
-V-skill punch needs to come out faster, or at least be guaranteed to come out if you press MP+MK twice.
-Similarly, V-skill needs to take only half the damage. Ideally the Standing HP should do so either. 1100 life may be too much; if Capcom wants to promote the V-Skill, make it not a suicide if you use it generously.
-Splash needs to be doable jumping backwards. Also, eliminate the hitbox under Zangief that remains from him regular jump while doing the splash. You can be hit out of splash without the enemy visible touching Zangief, it’s ridiculous.
-Similarly, Borscht Dynamite needs to be doable jumping backwards.
-The recovery from SPD is excessive. It is almost a full second. it should be a little less, like 40f or something. This is particularly painful in online cause the rollback will rob your rightful SPDs and then the enemy has a full second to jump in and do their best possible combo.
-V-Trigger is almost perfect except for being hit by Birdie’s V-skill. That is ridiculous and needs to go.
That’s my personal experience. The earlier post that said that people can escape from the VT by backdashing, and that Zangief can be punished for eating a fireball with the headbutt scare me cause I haven’t encountered that yet and means that once I improve I will find more and more faults with Zangief.
Out of all the things the most important are Lariat and V-Skill health, also V-Trigger not being hit by Birdie’s skills, but an useable RBG would be nice to have.
After the new patch we are going to have to change this thread from the “whining tread” to the “WINNING THREAD!”!!!
You’re not going to get green hand back, but Gief will help you get the green at tournaments now.
Indeed. I won two out of the last three locals (placed second in the last one!) with bottom tier junk Gief. I’ll be making SERIOUS BANK (like 20 bucks) when he is buffed to high mid tier next patch!!! AWW YEAH
Why was this thread ever created. It is impossible to whine when Zangief is this fun in-game. I get hype and start getting vocal when I play Gief.
V-reversal > instant air EX SPD? I yell at my screen “DON’T YOU JUMP ON ME”. Never had so much fun with a bottom tier outside of Deejay.
I suspect it was mostly in response to playing against Nash in the early days. That matchup was…and still is, mostly awful. Gief is incredibly fun and very underrated in this game, but he has matchups that make you just want to put the controller down (Nash, Sim). Chun is tough, but certainly winnable.