Zangief Whining Thread

-I feel like his health/defense should be higher. You exchange with Dhalsim or Karin a few times and then see that half your life is gone. If his combos are going to be as limited as they are, (and his mobility is laughable) then he should be able to take much more damage than he does.

-Why is the running bear grab so damn slow? The other grapples have either fast charging throws (Mika, Laura) or can jump across the screen (Birdie). The LK is a little quicker than than M or H but it has to be the most punishable move in the game.

-Lariat needs to be better AA. It’s not bad, but it does get beat often while some 80 pound chick’s jab punch has 100% AA.

-Wake up SPD is so weak in this game, why change a staple of SF since the original SF2?

Zangief loses every match up in this game, thanks Capcom!

-Oh yeah, Zangief’s had the banishing flat for 20 years…did he just forget how to do it?

-And I may be alone here, but I prefer the previous super move when you couldn’t combo into it. Now I wind up missing CA because I didn’t combo it or wait long enough after the attack.

1100 HP would be nice. He should have more than Birdie for sure.

My issue with RBG is that it doesn’t immediately grab them when he gets in throw range. There is some strange delay. EX RBG has strange armor properties and armor starting in frame 3 is a bummer.

Lariat needs help. I almost never use it. Better as an AA and hit crouching would be a good start.

All in favor of a SPD buff but also fine with it the way it is. EX SPD with 4 frame startup and hit invincible would be on my dream list.

R. Mika is bullshit.

Sigh, I feel so weird about Gief. Like, clearly he needs improvements, nobody is really going to deny that. But in a weird way I feel like I like what they’re TRYING to do with him, even though I can’t fully articulate why. And I fear things like “bring back green hand” and “make this move or that fully invuln” might potentially be missing some grander design philosophies present in this game. Or something? Eh, I dunno. It’s past midnight and I’m gonna ramble for a bit here, so bear with me.

So, I feel like there was some conscious effort behind the design of this game to basically allow people to just jab their way out of sloppy or braindead opponent offense. Hence why the game is - I think - not exactly lousy with tight blockstrings like 4 was. (from what I understand) Now I could very well be wrong about this, but I feel like this line of thinking is related to why command throws don’t have so many defensive properties, compared to other installments. Especially in gief’s case, a throw can be as good if not better than a jab in a lot of cases. Since jabs are pretty great for turning the tables in this game already, that means SPD is too, and I can see how they’d be wary to go making it even better with various forms of inherent invuln. Also, a further ramification of adding more defensive properties to SPDs is the possibility of them going and doing the same with the other grapplers. Which quite frankly scares me because we already have enough trouble with Mika. So I’m not really sure what to reasonably suggest in regards to SPDs.

As for green hand? I dunno why its gone. I can only assume they were thinking they should get rid of it as part of giving him his v skill and trigger. Like “who needs quick positioning when you can press a couple buttons to pop super armor at any moment?” Or “if you have v trigger you can just suck them in instead of moving towards them.” I don’t know if that logic is sound or not, but that’s what I suspect they were thinking. Assuming they’re hesitant to simply bring green hand back, they could potentially tune something else to help out with positioning or something. Like changing something about skill/trigger or making something like fMK quicker. Hell, make light and medium SPD drop the opponent closer, fuck it. Who needs repositioning if you’re already close to them?

Sprucing up lariat seems like a no-brainer and is quite honestly probably one of the things we’ll see happen first. I didn’t play 4 a ton, but I feel like lariat in 4 wasn’t invuln but came out so fast it would frequently at least trade with things. That would probably be an ok upgrade. Also, yeah, make it hit crouching people.

At the end of the day I feel like gief doesn’t need a huge overhaul to git gud. But, then again, I feel I am hardly a grand master of street fighter 5. I’ve been sort of hesitating to say anything with confidence about potential balancing tweaks for that reason. But maybe I’ve managed to stumble my way into saying something interesting here.

A faster walk speed is at the top of what he needs, imho.
V Skill and Trigger both are good. Faster SPD, would be great, but I’d kill for a faster walk speed.

T. Hawk got a speed boost and it did him wonders, so you might be on to something here. And it might even be a reasonable possibility.

here’s my wishlist for Gief:

  • V-Trigger activation should be better, I want to be able to combo into V-trigger activation and not just after it’s activated.
  • Being able to combo into EX SPD if not it should bit invincible at start up.
  • If they you aren’t able to combo into EX SPD then Lariat’s hit box should be improved, being able to hit crouchers would make BnB’s much more reliable.
  • Now if they don’t improve Lariat I would like an EX Lariat, from pressing 3 kicks at the same time, that would have what the normal Lariat improvements should be.
  • It’s not something Gief necessarily needs but an improvement on his V-reversal would be nice.

I know Gief isn’t a combo character but if his main tool is lacking in trying to compensate for the lack of combos then I think he should have combos.

Capcom will not buff gief as snake already contribute with such asshole gief lol

After playing Gief up to Gold and playing him at local meetups 2 times a week I think I have a fair opinion of him. I think Gief is a really cool design in this game but has some HORRIBLE match-ups where you lose even when you outplay your opponent. Heres what I think he needs to make those match-ups not a blowout.

Lariat: This move needs to be useful again. It loses to jumping light normals for some reason, it sucks vs fireballs (anyone can dash up sweep him on reaction for escaping a fireball), and it needs to be a reversal again, he gets bopped by Mika free because of this.
[] Needs 2 lariats again. Regular lariat should be full body hit/grab invulnerability on startup frames like a SFIV lariat. Why does he need this? Punishing limb spam from Dhalsim, helping the Mika matchup not be free after one Irish Whip into the corner, punishing F.A.N.Gs just outside of EX SPD range throwing Poison Fireballs, etc.
] Double lariat needs upper body hit invulnerability frames like SFIV.
[] Mid hitbox should extend further only after canceling from S.LK so that his only BNB actually lands.
Headbutt: This attack has the potential to be really good because his hurtbox is so far behind the hitbox.
] Startup is way too slow, reduce it from 12f to 10-9 frames.
[] Recovery frames should be halved only when eating a fireball. Characters like Nash/Ryu can dash up sweep or combo on recovery. Gief should not be punished for using his fireball tools…
] Give the man some meter for eating all these fireballs? idk about this but maybe…
V-Skill: Overall a pretty good tool but you lose way too much for using it.
[] Less grey health taken during use. Instead of all of that damage converting to grey health it should be about 60-75%. Dealing with sim is ridiculously unfair, V-Skill seems as if it were supposed to make that matchup more fair but instead it just makes you lose half your health for using it.
Running Bear Grab: This move is literally trash.
] Meter-less RBG should have a slightly faster run and be waaaaaaay less punishable on whiff.
[] EX RBG should run fast as hell so you can run though fireballs, birdie bananas/cans, and long pokes to actually get a punish. You shouldn’t have to pray they don’t jump after just armoring though a S.MK from someone. It needs to be a legitimate punish even if you armor the tip of your opponents longest button (not including max range sim buttons). EX RBG should retain its vanilla recovery time though.
V-Trigger: This is basically a game changer for some matchups, Gief needs to be able to rely on it to work consistently.
] VT activation should have a safe single press version where he does not hold a spin but instead spins one time without pulling the opponent in. Sometimes you just wanna be in VT near your opponent without making yourself punishable.
[] VT trades needs to be FIXED for him. I have pulled in people during the active frames of their attack from far as hell away and been hit. One VT activates and pulls them in it should force them into hit stun.
] VT is HEAVILY exploitable because of its little glitches. You should not be able to back dash or jump back once it is active and pulling you in already. EVEN IF you are on block. Its crazy how easily react-able it is. When people see it they back dash like 5 times and they’re gone, THEY even get pulled forward WHILE back dashing but still get away!!! VT should beat back dash, beat pre-jump frames, and lose to people who jumped before the active frames or blocked.
[] Jump-ins on active VT should get you hit. If you punish it with a jump-in after the VT flash and before the active frames as a legitimate punish thats fair but if I’m sitting there spinning and you just jump forward and kick me that makes no sense. Im essentially a big ass wind turbine, how the hell are you hitting me?
] Why does VT not go through Birdie’s cans, banana peels, and chain?
Overall Buffs:
[] Walkspeed slightly faster.
] S.HK is like your only tool for keeping an enemy grounded after a block or hit string pushing them our of range of most of your normals. Please make it a little less punishable on whiff, if you duck it I’m dead.

 **Conclusion**: Do I want Gief to be OP, hell no. I want him to have to work hard for his wins, be patient, outplay his opponents, and be a solid character. That is what makes it the best feeling in the world to win him, but right now I just feel like Gief is not viable. The required skill and patience to play him combined with the risks he has to take vs the reward does not match. Right now I feel as if he is free to a Dhalsim, Mika, Nash, Fang, Ryu, Birdie (banana setplay), Chun li, and possibly Bison. He needs solid answers. He needs buffs. I know my list seems long but seriously, who else do you see get anywhere with Gief besides Snake Eyez? 

 **TLDR**: Two lariats, buff headbutt, buff V-Skill, buff RBG, better walkspeed, fix V-Trigger issues (dashing out/ jumping out or trading), less recovery on S.HK.

 Make Gief [s]Great[/s] Viable Again 2016 #giefnation

Right now, I think he only needs:

  • More horizontal range on lariat so it combos consistently
  • 1100 health
  • Holding down V-Skill should make his grey health replenish faster

What about fighting Nash/Sim/F.A.N.G./Chun/Birdie/Ryu. How will he win any of those matchups without substantial buffs?

I think he fights Nash, Birdie and Ryu fine. Sim and FANG are just archetypically hard matchups; short of giving Gief something stupid, I don’t see how those matchups become too much more manageable than they are now.

IMO his main problem isn’t his tools, it’s that he doesn’t have good risk/reward. He has to take massive risks to win, but he doesn’t have much more health than the average character and only does slightly above average damage. Basically he doesn’t live long enough or kill fast enough to be able to play the way the character has to be played in order to win.

You must not have played a really good/lame Nash yet. Its literally impossible. Gief has not answer to banana peel and lame Ryu has extremely safe fireballs. Ryu is by far the easiest of his hard matchups but its deff hard. I agree that he doesnt have a good enough risk reward but the fact remains that his tools for dealing with zoning were robbed from him in the SFIV-SFV changes. SFIV Gief could Greenhand on whiffed Sim limbs as a whiff punish or just to get closer during Sims recovery. He could SPD limbs, and beat them with Lariat. It was still a tough matchup but he had the tools to deal with them. Now his tools are literally gone and his only button thats really fast/long enough to whiff punish limbs is C.LP, and what does that get for you?

I fight good Nash players. You have to constantly flex; all you need is them to fuck up once with backfist, st.RH or scythe and you’re in. You have to mix between headbutt, jump, neutral jump, flex and lariat on sonic booms to make them wary of trying to punish. From there you walk them to the corner, where it’s in your favor. It’s easier said than done, but that’s nearly every matchup in this game with Gief. If you go back a few pages in the MU thread you’ll see where I thought this MU was impossible too until I started flexing like I didn’t give a fuck.

Here’s some high level Nash vs Gief so you can see how to fight it

The answer to banana is to jump on it and block. If you do it immediately, Birdie isn’t close enough to grab/command grab so you just have to block, and now you’re in his face. After I started doing this, and just rushing Birdie down in general, my win % against him has gone up substantially.

Ryu, it’s more the player. His tools are really basic; they don’t shut down Gief much at all but the player can make it feel that way.

Agreed on Sim with green hand. But lariat still works on his limbs; the window for hitting him is a little tighter but it definitely is a viable strat. MU is still ass tho.

Nice match. Definitely helps my Nash gameplan. If only that slash kick thing didn’t knock you back so far lol. You gotta work in all over again. I’ll definitely start flexing more though.

If all they did was buff lariat big time I would be happy. Make it our go to aa like in 4 and make it hit crouchers so we can confirm into combo every time without worrying if it will hit or not.

Make all spd’s 4f or just keep them at 5f and make ex 3f.

1100 life would be nice.

I don’t think this is too much to ask for but knowing what they did in 4 I wouldn’t be surprised if they actually made him worse instead of buffing him slightly lol.

he beats nash.

^ lolwat

If you think Gief beats Nash you’ve played some of the worst Nash’s in the world then. This mu is borderline unfair.