I’m not… 
I’ll try not to piss myself, but I’ll be wearing diapers just in case.
Punishing Honda’s Super is not the prob in this matchup, it’s the Torpedoes and Slams. If I can SPD a fully airborne Torpedo, and I’ve already tried to (got a mouthful of sumo hair for my troubles), it would really help.
Please go to this webpage and save it as a favorite.
You’ll thank me for this. 
Anyhow, when I go to the page that NKI has T.Akiba’s frame data on, this is what it says for Zangief’s Lariats…
They have ZERO startup frames!
Yep…I said it. Zero.
From there, you get 7 hitting frames before Zangief turns sideways for 5 frames. From there, it’s 5 frames hitting in front of him, 5 frames not hitting, 5 frames hitting behind him, 5 frames not hitting. The Kick Lariat then hits in front for five frames and then turns for 6 recovery frames and stops. The Punch Lariat spins completely around one more time, hits in front for 5 frames and then recovers for 3frames before stopping.
At least…that’s the Vanilla ST Frame Data. I don’t think that changed for HDR, though. The only change should be the fact that you can’t hit Zangief’s feet during the first part of the Kick Lariat. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, please.
Now…this bring up a question I have. How many frames of invincibility does Zangief get on his Lariats? I’m going to guess 4 because in any version of SF that I’ve played with Honda in it, I have never been hit out of it when countering a Sumo Headbutt unless I knew I started the move too early. My only hope at that point would be to try to steer the Punch Lariat so that Zangief’s fist hit Honda’s head.
Woah woah what? Lariat is already really reaaaaly good. It’s a great anti-air and it is pretty much a 50/50 guess against characters with torpedo type moves. Even with that chance, Geif knocks down with it and can pressure.
Greenhand is also incredibly more useful in HDR against Honda. Evoanon wiffs greenhand into SPD all the time on me. It is also really useful as a meaty (the green hand is 100% red hitbox at the end so if Honda doesn’t reverse with jab headbutt or super it’s SPD time).
cr.jab is nice, but if you start spamming it Honda players will get wise and start tripping you for free.
Wow, that means that it hits on the 1st frame then. If it has zero startup, followed immediately by a hitting frame, that means technically that you can’t safejump on Zangief. I thought only Blanka and Ken had those. That can’t be right.
If you go down the list on T.Akiba’s frame data, the only other attacks with 0 startup are Command Throws (of course), Air Tatsus (didn’t know that) and Blanka’s neutral j.Fierce (what?!). And Akuma’s Shoryukens don’t have any startup numbers, and have instead a red number as the 1st number. Doesn’t that also mean they hit on the 1st frame?
If you check out the Yoga Book Hyper scans of ST Zangief, the frame data shows 1 startup frame for both Lariats (it’s to the left and very tiny and can easily be missed, but it’s there), but NKI’s translation has 0 startup frames. And some of the other numbers for the Lariat’s frame data doesn’t match the YBH either.
Also, if you check out [media=youtube]daMh2pCo1FI&feature=related"[/media], it looks like the Lariat hits on the 1st frame. Someone needs to confirm this. But yeah, the only changes to the Remix Lariat is a bigger hitbox for PPP Lariat and low invincibility for KKK Lariat.
And neither Lariat is invincible on startup according to the YBH scans. The hitbox video also shows a blue hitbox at the same time as the huge red hitbox appears. It’s completely blocked out by the red hitbox, but if you look carefully, you can see a purplish area around Zangief’s head. That’s probably why Honda’s Torpedo doesn’t hit at that point, since (it looks like) the blue hitbox is too high.
I’m highly inclined to believe that one startup frame is the correct number. I also think, however, that because you can duck Zangief’s Lariat, even with zero frame startup, it would be easier to safe jump on him (though the margin for error would still be extremely slim). So, I could see a case for either source being true.
I’d still think Yoga Hyper Book’s got it right, though.
I’m inclined to believe that you are right OJ.
Question is: why doesn’t the frame data match between T.Akiba’s site and the YBH scans?
I checked out some other characters, and the frame data matches, and it seems Zangief’s Lariat and Blanka’s neutral j.Fierce are the only discrepancies. It’s hard to see the startup number for Blanka’s neutral j.Fierce, but it definitely has some startup.
But even if the Lariat has 1 startup frame, that’s still pretty damn good. Especially considering the PPP Lariat’s offensive hitbox extends all the way to the ground. I think that the reason it’s not that useful vs safejumps in practice is because the hitbox is better suited vs crossups rather than non crossup safejumps. The hitbox extends behind Zangief more than in front of him.
No…not at all. It has 6 startup frames, 12 hitting frames and 18 recovery frames (22 in Classic ST). It has just as many recovery frames as the startup and hitting frames combined. 18 recovery frames…half of the Banishing Fist is recovery…damn, that’s long. LOL Plenty of time for Honda to reverse Oichio or Torpedo, or damn near anything he wants to do. As a whiff into SPD, yes, it’s good. But as a meaty, it’s lame, really lame.
I *want *them to advance on me, so they lose their charge. I got nothing but love for Fatty, and I just wanna hug him. heheh :razzy:
I’m pretty sure you can cancel a lot of that recovery into SPD. It sure seems that way when I play high level Giefs. Meaty greenhand is tricky shit to deal with. Especially if they mix it up with lariat right after.
As for advancing on Giefs with Honda, a well placed standing LP will beat Gief out of nearly every jump he has. Honda’s max range sweep is also outside of SPD range.
You’re absolutely right stud. I think the reason that meaty BF, SPD seems to work is:
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that they’re not expecting it, they were expecting a standing or jumping tick into SPD
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the block stun off BF is much greater than a standing tick, and so charge players like Honda mess up their reversal attack timing and subsequently are wide open to SPDs
IMO it’s a combination of those two factors that makes meaty BF look effective. But if you’re expecting it and take into account its block stun, you have plenty of time to counter it. Even as a charge character, if you mess up your reversal attack timing after blocking a meaty BF, you still have time to simply throw Zangief.
Think about it, after the last hitting frame of the BF, Zangief is basically defenceless for 18 frames, plus he’s right next to you. Next time you get meaty BF’d, just hold u, and you will see how fast your character gets out of block stun.
And if you just don’t want to deal with Zangief being that close to Honda, negative edge, stored Oichio is still Honda’s best, brain dead option. That, followed by a Torpedo is guaranteed to insulate Honda from anything.
Yes, but Honda having to hold f to sweep me, gives me an opening. If I’m alert, I can simply block his sweep attempt (I have no trouble seeing it coming, and stopping my cr.Jab spam to block it), and then advance without worrying about Torpedo at the very least. I don’t have to jump, I can sweep, or walk up SPD or any other options. And if the Honda player gets sloppy with his sweep, I can empty jump SPD or jump Kick into sweep. And then the loving and hugging begins! :party:
I’ve recently begun tripping more Giefs with Honda. It just seems like an invitation to get them to jump at me more. Even though it does little damage, I can stand jab all day long :lol:
#1 is true. I find that mixing up all the different attacks on wakeup has the opponent guessing a lot and thus messing up on their reversals. Standing tick, jumping tick, Safe jump + wait for them to reverse and punish, green hands, a regular sweep from green hand distance or just sit there and wait :).
One of the reasons the meaty BF is also good is if you barely tap the EDGE OF THE opponent as they’re waking up from the floor, you’re out of their throw range. This is true even for the ochio throw if you land the BF correctly :).
I’m rarely thrown after a meaty BF. At best they’ll need a reversal to punish me.
As for the 50/50 lariat vs flying headbutts from Honda… I’m not sure on that one. It seems 90/10 in Honda’s favor when I throw them out there against the Honda’s. :-. Maybe I just have very bad luck… haha.
Recently I’ve been timing the lariat at full screen or a bit closer when the headbutt is next to Gief. Works very well! Not so well against those with laggy connections, east coast vs west or overseas :-!!
For those of you that were looking to help with updating my FAQ, I posted excerpts from my updated draft in the applicable character threads. If you go through there and read those, you’ll see what I’m looking for: cross-up info. What they are…who they work on…what happens when they don’t work. So far, I’m very sure that I have all of the cross-ups listed in my FAQ, but I just don’t have the specifics for the following characters…
Zangief: I have the following cross-ups listed: Jumping short, Jumping forward, Jumping roundhouse, Short Jumping Knee Press (jumping d+short), Forward Jumping Knee Press (jumping d+forward), and the Body Splash (jumping d+fierce). I’m pretty positive the most reliable cross-ups are the Body Splash and the Forward Jumping Knee Press. Just need to know who each of those cross-ups work on or don’t work on (whichever list is shorter), whether standing or crouching.
thank you. i knew the page existed but couldn’t find it when i did the search.
zero frames can’t be right. well it can be and i just like to eat fb’s and super fb’s a lot…
yesterday i couldn’t spd the sumo butt splash and that was always a guarantee for me. my opponent just kept splashing over and over while my spd whiffed after blocking it. says there are 4 and 6 frames of recovery on that thing. ever happen to anyone else?
Yeah Honda can ass you out non-stop…You have to lariat them when they are coming down or jab. Its kinda lame as its already a tough matchup yet they still allow this to torment gief even more. Not to mention they can mix up the butt splash with different buttons to change the timing & spacing…
yeah, bison still gives me problems when they can space me out properly. throwing out standing forwards and roundhouses, it’s really hard to counterpoke, and as far as i know, impossible to get in.
but i had two fights against a bison who gave me a run for my money, he destroyed me the first game, but it was a close second game. but it’s like, how do i get in? i know i can kind of hit him if i time my st forward just right…easier said than done. i think im just salty because he sent this message after the game. i mean sometimes ill throw out jumping fierces, but trading when he has the life lead isn’t exactly what i want.
http://img254.imageshack.us/i/img1503.jpg/
it’s like, give me a hard time in game, and then rub it in my face afterwords. but this isn’t myspace. either i was doing something wrong (taking advice from evoanon in this thread) or it really is just plain hard to get in on a bison who knows what he’s doing (obvious to tell i don’t fight many of those).
though i guess when i do get in, spaming gief splash is pretty much gg.
Yeah zoning Bisons are tough, i believe the lariat will help sometimes but most of the time i get kicked to the face. Its kinda like Honda’s Headbutt, not really worth the risk. I would say watch Bison’s feet, when they go forward try to anticipate when they will throw the standding roundhouse then do a jumping fierce. I would try to avoid jumping tick spd good bisons if they arent in the corner. Most of the time they will just jump back hit you with a jumping medium or if your to close will throw you.
I give the matchup 6-4 Bisons favor…
Yeah, don’t let Honda get you in the corner with the Sumo Splash trap. Out in the open, a blocked Splash is easily reversal SPD’d, but for some reason, when Zangief is in the corner it can escape reversal SPDs, and is almost unpunishable. No counter I’ve tried works consistently, like rcaido said, Lariats to catch him on the way up are probably the best, but even they are not reliable enough. I’ve tried all sorts of stuff like, j.Strong, j. u+Fierce, cr.Fierce, cr.Jab, etc and they do work sometimes, but not reliably depending on if the Honda player mixes up the strengths of the Sumo Splash.
Against an aggressively poking Bison, your best bet is not to jump, but to bait his Slide with the KKK Lariat. It’s quick enough that if the Bison player does slide on reaction, you will be able to block and then pound him into the ground and then don’t let him escape. Jumping on Bison is an invitation to trade with his st.Roundhouse from mid range and you will get stuffed from max range. Plus, against good Bisons, they will be watching for the jump in and juggle you for 3 hits with j.Strong.
The best thing is to slowly advance and try to push him into the corner where Zangief has the advantage. You don’t have to worry about block damage since he probably won’t be using Crushers or Scissors, and if he does, you know what to do. = ) The real block damage comes from Stomps, but obviously if you’re alert you can just swat him out of the air with a jump attack and then go in for a hug. ; ) 6-4 Zangief IMO.
It’s been right since World Warrior. However, since you can’t Negative Edge to activate the Lariat, that makes it much harder to use as a reversal.
Compare 4-6 recovery frames to the 21 frames of block stun you’re put in and you’ll see why you need to Lariat that Sumo Splash.
The only way to reliably punish it with the SPD is to make Honda miss.
The infamous sumo buttsplash, which I like to call “the stinkface” in the corner can be real trouble at times. If they keep spamming it, j. back and d. fierce (splash) after your block stun. It will beat Honda 100% if he’s on the way up. Just watchout if they mix up the headbutt in there. Another way is to simply piledriver/suplex them after your block stun. Good if you are trapped in the corner, but in the open screen spd should work after roundhouse stinkface.