A) I should be psychic: Know what a Wesker is going to do and how/when/what direction he might try to utilize a teleport to get in regardless of the heat of battle and amidst confusion that may arise.
B) I should remain Idol as fuck and not hit buttons. AKA: Throwing projectiles? Attempts to be offensive? Punishing assists? Nope, whenever a Wesker is out on the field my character needs to freeze like a deer in headlights and wait for an eventual teleport, no matter how much this Wesker+assists are pressuring me at the time.
C) Be a zen master with an amazing composed mindset and reaction time. So no matter how heated and intense the battle gets, or mindgames, i can remain entirely calm and immediately recognize when and where he is coming in a flash. Being able to perfectly capitalize on that oh-so puny level of recovery time the teleport has with no spur of the moment confusion, mistakes or dropped inputs.
k.
The Last thing i’ll say is just compare this crap to that of other fighting games. Most good fighters with some semblance of balance in this department DO NOT have teleports this fast and flexable.
Bison in SFIV series is as good an example as any. I don’t care what the frame data says, his has a very fast start-up with a SLOOOW recovery time. He is just standing there for about a half second with his arms crossed & snickering-- about 3x the recovery a wesker teleport has. This is the way teleports SHOULD be done. So there is no option to spam them, and players have to be creative with tactics to use them to good effect and not get punished.
Not trying to change any minds here, just throwing in my two cents. More and more often i get the impression around these parts that members are pressured into being reserved, and that any slightest complaining is met with “scrub” talk by the elitist types about how they should be stepping up their game instead. This is a dangerous mindset as shit is often broken/unbalanced in fighting games and players rightfully should speak up a lot more sometimes in the hopes of an eventual change. Especially with a developer that occasionally listens.
Not saying i think an actual capcom rep is going to bother reading this thread…but who knows. The more players that speak up the better.
So whatever i guess i suck then, but my Viewpoint is this shit NEEDS further balancing.
Yeah, you do suck. Why don’t you actually try using Training Mode Playback & Replay? I use that to simulate all the spam that I might encounter and learn how to deal with it. Also, be patient. You can still be offensive. Hasn’t anyone ever told you that you have to play smart too? Know when to attack, when to defend, and when to counter. If someone can play mindgames on you, then you can too.
People are giving you advice and you are taking it as criticism. Why don’t you describe an actual match you had with a Wesker?
Hell, I’m not the greatest player out there. But, I do know that raw teleports are pretty damn punishable.
Well that’s the thing…there’s no such thing as a GOOD raw teleport unless you’re trying to whiff punish a projectile. In this game whiff punishing is much harder because people can whiff cancel projectiles into supers. You can try to H eleport on top of Magneto when he shoots a disruptah but when he cancels into magnetic shockwave and blasts your ass you look stupid. You look even more dumb if he didn’t throw a projectile at all and just air throws or anti air combos you into gravity squeeze. A good raw teleport almost doesn’t exist in a game where everything can be cancelled into everything. What hurts Wesker during raw ports even more is that his ports don’t really abide by that rule and you can’t cancel into anything but XF until after the port fully recovers.
Obviously XF3 Wesker makes raw ports work. He gets like a 30 percent speed boost. You do realize that everything gets better in XF right? Attacking frames, special move frames, damage…of course his ports are going to be harder to punish. XF makes you better period that’s the point of it.
The one thing you most likely can’t do is show me a high level tournament video of a Wesker player doing raw ports without XF. Especially not a video of them getting away with it multiple times and setting up free offense on their opponent. Everyone knows without XF2/3 that shit is scrubby and will get you killed. Did you see Mine doing raw ports with his on point start of round Wesker? No cuz he’s a top Marvel player (was one of the top MVC2 players) and knows better than that scrub shit that would get him killed.
If you raw teleport near me offline you’re getting hit…it’s scrub ass shit that’s highly punishable. If you’re going to raw teleport…just make sure it’s nowhere near my character while they are on the ground.
Thank you, MD. As a Dormammu user, I use raw Mass Change M sometimes to escape since it looks somewhat safe. I’ve seen FChamp raw teleport with Dorm at times, though it seems like he was trying to use it to be somewhat unpredictable since he usually does it in the air. MastaCJ also does the same, though I wonder if people haven’t played against Dormammu much to understand that his M teleport is punishable.
First of all, I was going to mention that XF3 wesker is a totally different issue all together, but I left that out. As mentioned the speed boost clearly makes raw teleports now a treat, but thats XF in general for you.
And everyone is agreeing with assist+teleport is ridiculous bullshit, its the raw normal teleports that do not cause issues. Sure they can be useful to get about the screen, but not to directly open someone up.
Its not the same as a fireball at all. To punish fireball spam, sure you must jump over them. But there is an inherent risk to that… Have you spaced it correctly? Will the opponent recover in time to punish you in the air? etc. You have committed. And you better have done it right.
To punish a raw port near you… you press a button. like L or M or something. Practically zero risk. If he didn’t come towards you, cool thats fine. If he’s gone next to you, yay free combo. And I really think whether you mask it or not doesn’t make a difference when we are dealing with the amount of time you have to react.
Holy fuck I suck at this game and I can deal with raw teleports. I am literally the worst marvel player in Calgary and I can still do something. just what the fuck am I reading now
The only time you should EVER raw teleport with Wesker is if you’re at SJ height and still relatively safe(No raining missles/ninjas), during XF3, or for certain setups during a combo(for instance after a down/side TAC immediately teleport down to link lvl 3). Unless you’re getting input delay measurable in excess of half a second, stuffing a teleport isn’t even remotely hard.
A) If you are:
In blockstun
Far away
At a severe positional advantage
Firing projectiles
You can expect a teleport.
You can expect an L teleport if:
You’re using projectiles and not beams.
Far away
Pushblocking
You can expect an M teleport if:
Wesker is shooting at you from SJ height
Wesker is playing keepaway with assists and back teleports.
Honestly, pretty much fucking never.
You can expect an H teleport if:
Not pushblocking
Throwing projectiles at a distance less than full screen.
Welcome entry mixups.
Playing online scrubs that can only mash :f::h: for gunshot teleports.
B) Understanding what you have to do versus a particular character is perhaps the most important fundamental skill you can learn, its called "knowing the matchup."Wesker’s teleports are a set distance and therefore most characters with beam or projectile are capable of filling a hole that can limit or outright prevent Wesker from gaining any ground.
This is marvel baby, if you can’t keep up go back to Apology edition.
Since we’re on the topic of teleport crossups, how easy is it to punish self-made crossups from the likes of Phoenix/Strider/Dr.Strange/Dormammu/Dante? I might do some testing on that.
If they know what they’re doing, you will need XF guard cancel to blow up self-assisted mixups. And if it’s Strider running around with Ouroboros, you’re stuck blocking.
Of course, you can always just stop them from trying to set-up their mixup. Pretty much any move that allows people to cover their solo mixups is slow enough to stop if you’re in the right position.
Wesker yes, a character that fast with high health that can easily get good damage with almost no risk and without the use of meter does not need a teleport. Dante doesn’t NEED a teleport either but his is pretty predictable so its not really much of an issue.
Vergil however is a character with highly unsafe normals that can’t be canceled into anything on whiff, has piss poor mobility unless he’s in devil trigger, is heavily dependent on meter, and has low health. Without teleports hes garbage.
His teleports arent even that strong without an assist backing them up, theyre slow enough that most zonners can hit him out of them before he even makes it over to them and theyre unsafe.
Vergil’s teleports have long start up the but the recovery is really fast similar to Deadpool’s. Hard to reaction punish once he ports for the ground ones.
Luckily…Vergil’s ports are tracking ports so if you have a rapid fire normal you can just pre emptively mash on it if you think he’s going to port and stuff his ground ports if they’re not assisted.
I think with those three, they’ve shown they can teleport in their respective games. Though Wesker’s “teleporting” in RE5 was more of a quick dodge than anything.
Isn’t jaguar kick mad unsafe on block? I guess you can cancel it into that palm strike though, I think that’s relatively safe. Hmm, can you then cancel that palm into a teleport?
Good show from Grave and DevilJin (and a few others) for having a civilised and interesting discussion even with a difference of opinion. A big F you to the horde of childish posers of SRK who have nothing of any interest to say and are completely fucking incapable of talking with grownups without resorting to insults or tedious self-masturbation of their own skills. Same old crap every time, a few people trying to have some sort of discussion worth reading only to met with a wave of idiots posting shit and circle-jerking each other with the like button.
Apologies for the rant but the ‘Stupid Retarded Kids’ moniker has never really been any more relevant around here and it’s a fucking shame.
On the subject of raw teleports being ‘good’, this is a fighting game and context is king. A raw teleport is somewhat similar I think to a jump-in in SFIV, not what you would ever consider ‘safe’ but that doesn’t mean it should be considered ‘bad’ and something to avoid or something that can’t be effective given the right situation. Daigo is a good example of this, he can ‘safely’ land a jump in by conditioning his opponent and successfully drawing their focus. It’s the same reason why you can condition your opponent to the point where you can walk almost half a screen and just throw them.
Fighting games are all about mental focus (there was a good article posted on SRK about ‘focus’ using ST as an example but I can’t find it) Sure (as people have pointed out ad infinitum here) if you’re focussed on defending a raw teleport/jump-in then yeah, piece of cake to counter it, but that’s the thing. If you’re focussing on one thing, you’re not focussing on pretty much everything else and more importantly, you’re not able to do exactly what you want to do, your gameplan takes a back seat and this is why it’s so powerful, constant threat (even at half-fullscreen) and constant drawing of your focus (I think this is what Grave was describing). Given a character like Wesker, once you’re cautious and mindful of the teleport and ease up on your own offence somewhat, that’s when a good player will move in and ruin your day.
You see it all the time on here, people completely ignore context and will say something like “Oh that’s beatable, just do X to counter you idiot!” This is a fighting game, EVERYTHING has a counter, there’s an answer to everything but that’s completely besides the point, it’s not black and white.
About the Raw Teleport vs Assist+Teleport debate I start wondering why someone will try to raw teleport.
He fears his assist will be hit before he can do the job
He fears his assist can be nullify during the mixup leaving him with no support
He try to punish something in reaction from you like in street fighter when we choose to jump
Examples :
At the beginning of the game i managed to see a long online set between two good french players (Alioune with Vergil / Magneto / Doom vs WhiteBl4ck with Vergil / Wesker / Taskmaster). In the Vergil mirror, several it happen that WhiteBl4ck happy birthday Alioune Vergil+Doom because he teleport behind both of them. It can look like a lucky teleport but since he managed to kill both characters with x factor each time and more than one time, i think it’s a threat. I don’t remember exactly what was going on during this set since i’m a noob but it was obviously a risky call (I choose to named them to show they are not scrub players)
some character have assist which can nullify or beat beam and projectile like :
Beam of Modok beat cleanly Disruptor of Magneto ( he even hit Magneto after)
Sand splash from Felicia
Hsien Ko assist
Nova gravimetric pulse
Etc
When you play versus a zoning character, you are happy to have a teleport character to avoid chip damage all day. So trying to raw teleport to avoid chip damage and cose the distance is an option sometimes.
Someone who spams projectile to stop sentinel drone assist call can force his opponent to change his plan and raw teleport instead to punish trish.
There are several examples.
Now why someone will try to assist+teleport ?
Because they know you are fishing for raw teleport perhaps
So here is the dilemma, did i have to do something or not xD
