his post implied that teleports are a new thing, which they are not.
Capcom please nerf everyone else so I can use my shitty characters
Intentional trolling?
Intentional trolling.
No I’m serious my team of joe/hsien-ko/jill needs help
It’s just generally in most situations where you’d want to raw port, assist+port generally gets you in less trouble and sets up a free combo if it crosses and a frame advantaged mix up if it doesn’t. It just leaves little reason to raw port outside of if you know you don’t have space to call the assist first. Which the situations that actually occurs aren’t far as often if at all compared to the space and situation you need to raw port. Assist + port is basically a better version of raw port in every aspect.
Certain characters like Vergil and Deadpool have side switching ports that are only around 12 frames on recovery making them pretty viable when used raw. I almost expect to see raw ports from either of those characters because they generally have the safeness threshold for it. In general they see you need about 12 frames to react to something with your eyes and in a serious match it’s risky to react to something that appears right around that threshold unless you almost 100 percent expect it already.
With characters like Wesker, Strange who have 19 frame recovery on their ground ports you have to already be doing something that you can’t whiff cancel into a special or super (which is not many things) to be reliably hit or generally put in a situation raw by these ports (unless they’re in like XF2/3/4).
To completely break down all of the teleport/pass through movements in the game…
DOCTOR STRANGE (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Strange: Ports are all tracking based meaning you know for sure he will be somewhere with in your area when he ports.
Grounded frontal tracking port = 11 frame start up, 19 frame recovery
Grounded behind tracking port = 11 frame start up, 19 frame recovery
Above opponent frontal tracking poort = 11 frame start up, 14 frame recovery
Overall = You should be punishing these reliably unless he’s in XF2/3. 19 frames gives you plenty time to press buttons if he raw ports and aerial port is free one frame air throw bait or s.L/s.S punish. [/details]
ROCKET RACCOON (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Rocket Raccoon: 2 ports that are tracking based, a 3rd move that allows him to manually control himself along the ground at a moderate speed while unable to be hit until he reappears (the burrow).
Grounded frontal tracking port = 13 frame start up, 27 frame recovery
Grounded behind tracking port = 13 frame start up, 27 frame recovery
Free movement teleport (burrow) = 13 frame start up, 9~8 frame recovery (have to figure out what exactly this means data wise)
Overall = You should be punishing the grounded ports reliably probably no matter what XF he is in. Literally near half a second recovery. He has to call an assist or do assistless cross up with TK spitfire first. Raw on the standard ports is just asking to die. Not sure how to read the recovery data on the burrow though. I’ll get back to that later. [/details]
FRANK WEST (PASS THROUGH)
[details=Spoiler]
Frank West: Has a roll move that has a set set of active frames attached to it and no other real data behind it from the guide.
Pass through move (barrel roll) = travels for 30 frames, can be hit during the roll.
Overall = The fact that this doesn’t have a set start up or recovery listed by the guide means it probably starts up on frame one and then just recovers on frame 30. He can be hit the entire time but the speed it travels is rather fast meaning that it’s probably actually difficult visually to reaction punish this everytime. Luckily unlike a teleport there are no real frames that he can’t be hit or is off screen during the pass through. [/details]
STRIDER (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Strider: Has 2 above opponent tracking teleports and a 3rd tracking teleport that releases a dive kick once active.
Above opponent frontal tracking port = 12 frame start up, 10 frame recovery
Above opponent behind tracking port = 12 frame start up, 10 frame recovery
Above opponent (centered) tracking teleport with dive kick on 1st active frame = 33 frame start up, 11 frame recovery, +2 on hit, negative 7 on block
Overall = The frames for the recovery look great initially for the tracking ports but the problem is Strider’s ports are above opponent ports which sets him up for a one frame air throw punish anytime he does it raw. Meaning as long as the opponent can see the start up warp animation where he disappears it’s not that difficult to reaction 1 frame air throw. If you’re really on your shit you can s.L AA also since he appears rather close to the opponent.
The tracking teleporting dive kick is a special case. If you block a dive kick based move on the ground there’s very little you can do to actually punish outside of one frame grab or command grab if you are in range intially. Even though it’s negative 7 on block that only really accounts for if you block it in the air. If you block it on the ground it’s a lot safer to everything but 1 frame grabs. In order to reliably punish the teleport dive kick on a block you have to chicken block and then punish with a 4 to 7 frame normal while you’re in the air or just as you land. Luckily the start up frames on his teleport dive are more than half a second (he does a ninja pose before porting) so it’s easy to react to the start up and prepare for a correct punish. Basically just jump up/backwards in the air after you see him warp and if it’s a dive kick block and punish and if it’s a standard teleport air throw punish. [/details]
VERGIL (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Vergil: Has 2 grounded tracking teleports, one above opponent frontal tracking teleport and a pass through move that releases 4 projectiles (more or less a self assist) after a certain set of frames. AKA if you hate ports/pass through moves you’re gonna hate this guy.
(#/# = 2nd number equals frames when in Devil Trigger)
Grounded frontal tracking port = 14/13 frame start up, 11/10 frame recovery
Grounded behind tracking port = 16/15 frame start up, 13/11 frame recovery
Above opponent frontal tracking port = 16/15 frame start up, 10/9 frame recovery
Pass through movement (rapid slash) = 28/26 frame start up, 16/14 active frames, 32/27 frame recovery, negative 8/3 on block.
Overall = Grounded tracking ports are among the hardest in the game to punish. When in Devil Trigger frontal grounded port is 2 frames faster on recovery than Deadpool’s and the behind one is one frame faster. Even when not in DT the frames are right on par with Deadpool’s. Meaning unless you’re really on the ball and totally react to the warp you’re looking at near impossible to punish on reaction. Luckily because he’s grounded mashing on a rapid fire normal will auto beat the port but if you’re doing anything other than mashing on a normal it’s not something you can reliably react to.
Aerial frontal tracking port like Strider’s can be punished on reaction if you wait for the warp animation then one frame air throw punish.
Rapid Slash has long start up but once active he starts to release projectiles after a certain point that can self cross up into combos. Unsafe on block when not in DT but becomes pretty safe on block in DT. Calling an assist before doing this is best when not in DT, but when you’re in DT + XF this pretty much becomes impossible to see on reaction and can link into full combos when in XF+DT.
His standard ports also becomes much scarier with automatic 15 percent DT speed increase + XF increases (gets to 140 percent speed in XF3+DT). [/details]
CAPTAIN AMERICA (HYBRID)
[details=Spoiler]
Captain America: Pass through move with invincibility at start up (cartwheel/backflip)
Pass through move (cartwheel/backflip) = Active for 34 frames, invincible from frames 1-13.
Overall = Has a typical pass through move that can be hard to block on reaction when you call assist first and then flip around. Doing so will also set up full combos on hit with the right assist and make the cartwheel completely safe on block and set up another frame trap into 4 frame start up c.L or throw. Have to guess and if you guess wrong you take big damage. One of the nastiest frame traps in the game set up right after this move.
If you don’t consider an assist this is still a pretty solid move because unlike Frank’s roll, it’s nearly as fast and is invincible for as long as Rufus’ EX messiah in SFIV. Giving Captain America now ANOTHER invincible reversal tool. ** He still can’t do this raw without getting punished on the recovery by an attack but if you pass through a move with recovery and they don’t whiff cancel into special or super…it’s a free combo for Captain. **
This just adds to Captain America’s vast array of invincible or projectile invincible moves moves that he can throw out to stop mix ups (call assist then do stars and stripes/dragon punch, call assist then do charging star, hyper stars and stripes). Meaning he has the unique trait of being able to stop or escape most of the mix ups in the game that a lot of the other cast has to sit and deal with. [/details]
DEADPOOL (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Deadpool: Screen placement based grounded teleports (similar to Skrull’s meteor smash). Basically the button pressed determines where Deadpool will land on screen.
Screen placement ports = 25 frame start up, unlisted frame recovery.
Overall: The reason why the data looks so weird on this teleport is that in Vanilla the guide listed his teleport as 18 frame start up, 12 frame recovery. Which pretty much placed it in the rather hard to raw punish ports group. In the Ultimate guide though the recovery is unlisted for some reason. The recovery feels about the same though so it’ll be safe to say that this port is still among the safest to raw port with in the game.
They probably heightened the start up for the teleport because now he can cancel just about all his specials into teleport. Plus he still has that issue of his 3rd teleport exploding (but can use it in combos to reset now). Generally unless the opponent is mashing on buttons these ports can be difficult to punish because they are around 12 frame recovery and Deadpool can appear in 3 spots on the screen randomly based on which button the opponent presses. If they press L he will appear on the far left of the screen, if they press M he’ll appear in the center of the scree and if they press H he’ll appear at the far right of the screen. Meaning especially in midfield it can be pretty much a toss up if he’ll appear in front or behind the opponent. Lucky these teleports are ground based.
**IMO still going on the best teleport in the game with the only real issue of the usage restriction. **Really good port for busting up people who chicken block too much or people who are coming down from flights or air dashes. Plus now can cancel all his specials into it (I guess he needed that…LOL). The usage restriction is mitigated from Vanilla now that he can more easily land a combo and explode the 3rd port or shoot his guns and then blow himself up after making contact with the guns. Capcom must have saw that DJ Ray Evo video and wanted to help Deadpool out. [/details]
DORMAMMU (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Dorm: 2 grounded tracking teleports and one above opponent frontal tracking teleport.
Grounded and above opponent ports = 13 frame start up, 17 frame recovery.
Overall: Most of the time you’ll see either the grounded behind teleport or the above opponent frontal teleport use for mix ups. His grounded frontal teleport leaves him too far away to capitalize off his finger or an assist a lot of the time. Not even really sure if there’s a reason to use his grounded front port. His M and H ports can create ambiguous left/right mix ups with assists though the H above opponent port is easily punished with air throw on reaction if done raw. The M behind port apparently has some weird property where he appears away from normal air throw/attack punishes but longer ranged standing normals should be able to reaction punish if done raw. [/details]
PHOENIX (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Phoenix: 2 grounded tracking ports and one above opponent tracking port.
Grounded tracking and above opponent ports = 10 frame start up, 20 frame recovery
When she’s out by herself unless she gets an H salty ball to appear in the middle of the port or calls an assist you should be able to punish in her normal form. If she’s in XF2/3 in regular form they obviously become harder to punish but the H above opponent one should still be easy enough to air throw punish. Once she turns into Dark Phoenix plus XF2/3 you’re basically not going to punish these anymore because c.L contra shots into ports keep the ports safe and they’re generally much harder to react to. She’s just a flying ball of hit boxes any way at that point. [/details]
SUPER SKRULL (TELEPORT)
Spoiler
Super Skrull: Screen placement based teleport dive kick (meteor smash). Placement is like Deadpool. Button you press determines where he goes.
Screen placement based teleport dive kick = 22 frame start up, 32 frame recovery, negative 21 on block.
Overall: Very punishable on whiff or block initially but he can easily cancel into super and safe DHC if such a situation occurs. Can also call certain assists to keep it safer. Pressing L makes him appear on the left of the screen, M in the middle of the screen, H at the far right of the screen. In the mid field this can get rather ambiguous and it can still cross you up in the corner although it should be easier to see if he’s going for cross or non cross in corner.
Generally a really random move to deal with because it’s basically a dive kick randomly dropping from the sky and it only takes him plinko dropping one dive kick on top of you and you get blown up. It’s just the lack of safety involved without a specific assist or DHC or XF. It’s just the fact that it’s basically just as easily going to hit you as it is not hit you that makes it scary.
WOLVERINE (PASS THROUGH)
[details=Spoiler]
Wolverine: Pass through attack move (B Slash) with 3 different directions with big hit box releasing afterwards. Auto corrects if he passes through opponent.
#/# = 2nd number = frames when in B Charge
Short distance pass through attack (B slash) = 18/14 frame start up, 24/18 frame recovery, -10/-5 on block.
Medium distance pass through attack (B slash) = 20/16 frame start up, 26/20 frame recovery, -12/-6 on block.
Long distance pass through attack (B Slash) = 22/17 frame start up, 27/21 frame recovery, -13/-7 on block.
Overall: Basically the easiest to use pass through move probably in the game. You don’t need to call an assist to turn this into an attack cross up. Making it an assistless left/right mix up. Wolverine also auto turns around during this move and it has 3 different distances so it basically just creates auto pilot mix ups depending on your spacing. The hit box that releases from these moves is rather large and deals with chicken blocking pretty effectively with the right spacing. If you get these moves successfully chicken blocked though you will have to cancel into B Charge or have an assist out or can be punished severely.
If they block these moves on the ground you’re generally pretty unsafe and need to cancel into B Charge. L B Slash is pretty safe in B charge but it only crosses up at point blank range so you won’t be using it much. M will probably be the most used one since even without assist it’s only neg 6 on block once you’re in B Charge. H works in some weird situations but without assist but it’s mostly M slash + assist or H slash + assist you’ll wan to use a lot of the time either way. M and H slashes without assists even in B Charge can be punished by some of the faster normals if done too close to the opponent.
As nasty as the move is without assists the general unsafeness without assists means you’ll want to use assist to carry you with this move still. The only other way you really wanna use it is use it to set up a B Charge or XF activation since both will lead to combos instantly and keep it relatively safe on block. Otherwise assist calls is the way to go with this move if you don’t wanna get Wolvie in trouble since the invincibility is now gone. [/details]
X-23 (PASS THROUGH)
[details=Spoiler]
X-23: Long distance pass through move (M mirage feint). Considered airborne during some of the active frames, cancellable into airborne specials during that point.
Pass through move (M feint) = 3 frame start up (fastest starting pass through move in the game), 25 frame recovery.
Overall = Generally a move you’ll want to use with assists unless you have the opponent in the corner where the recovery can be cut by landing more quickly due to having them in the corner (still generally throw punishable so you’re taking a risk still). This move seems rather innocent minus how fast it is without assists. Can do somewhat tricky mix ups without it at specific ranges without assists but the 25 frame recovery is asking to get killed raw for the most part.
**The general reason why there’s so many restrictions on this move is that combined with an assist it creates the fastest left/right mix up in the game with the right assists. X-23’s gameplan is all about trying to get behind you and/or frame trap you (only has one real not too scary high/low mix up on standard size chars) so this fits. **If she has a fast assist like Akuma tatsu, Iron Fist dragon kick or Hawkeye horizontal arrows (all around the fastest 32 to 34 frame start up) it’s literally borderline unblockable without preemptively holding forward and praying. It basically creates a cross up that activates within no more than 3 to 6 frames making the cross up virtually invisible. It’s almost unnecessarily good seeing how other assist + port mix ups are already extremely hard to react to even if you see the assist release first. If you feel they are going to hold forward to auto block the cross you can just dash forward instead and they’ll get hit.
Even with slower assists as long as the assist locks them down nicely on hit or block you still get what is basically a free mix up. If they don’t react to the assist in time then you get the 3 frame cross up also at closer ranges. Long story short, not too scary without assists…probably the most dangerous pass through move in the game with assists since she either 3 frame crosses you if you don’t see her assist in time or she gets in a prime position to frame trap or further mix you up into you eventually get hit. Considering even without assists she has dive kick cross ups that are so ambiguous that she doesn’t actually go behind you but still crosses you up…you’re just going to get hit period unless you chicken block out of there or lucky air throw you. Has command grab and one frame throws into more mix ups ready if you try to block too long. Just generally not a character you should be stand or crouch blocking once she establishes point blank range. [/details]
Cont. from above…
AKUMA (TELEPORT)
Spoiler
Akuma: Grounded pass through move with teleport properties (invincible for set of frames during pass through). Essentially a hybrid pass through move. Can move forwards a set distance or backwards away a set distance (like Wesker except much shorter distance actually travelled and not as fast during the travel).
Grounded teleport move = Start up 14 frames, recovery 20 frames (invincible/off screen for frames 14-30).
Overall: Technically all teleports by the guide are invincible to all attacks for a set of frames that are listed in the guide. I don’t really list those frames for the other characters though since it’s negligible seeing those are the frames they are not on the screen to attack at any ways. Those characters generally have to face getting hit once they fall out of the disappearing act of the port. This…is not the case with Akuma.
Akuma’s teleport has 20 frames of recovery but the teleport is invincible from frames 14 to 30. Meaning the actual teleport only gives you 4 real frames to punish. Making it technically the hardest to punish recovery wise of all the ports in the game (pretty much figured this out just now obviously). Technically that makes all ports more around like a 10 frame actual punish window but the fact that they can’t move or attack during those frames where they are off screen makes it kind of negligible. Generally you get those full average of about 18 to 20 frames to react to the standard recovery ports.
Of course there’s some big issues around why this is not as great as it sounds. Akuma is usually used as anchor and the teleport still has 14 frame start up so outside of whiff cancel raging demon or other super shenanigans you’re not getting a lot of mileage out of this by itself. If you get the teleport to start up you probably won’t get punished unless they’re mashing on c.L or one frame throw but the situations you’ll be able to use it in are just too limited without assist due to the properties of the move and how chicken blocking deals with a lot of standard ground mix ups.
**With assists though…this is probably secretly among the best ports in the game. If not…THE BEST port in the game when it comes to recovery and general safeness. **Which still only makes it decent recovery wise since all assist + ports are pretty damn safe.
DANTE (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Dante: Above opponent BEHIND teleport (the only above and behind teleport in the game).
Above opponent behind teleport (air trick) = 11 frame start up, 11 frame recovery.
Overall = Defintely one of the best teleports in the game. Although the 11 frame recovery sounds super great initially the fact that it’s above opponent (and relatively close to them) means you won’t have the safeness threshold of Deadpool or Vergil. 1 frame air throw will still fuck you up or mash s.L/S or invincible special/super. This teleport is the only above head teleport that moves behind the opponent meaning they also have to switch their guard to block high in the other direction if they commit to block your overhead. It’s not that hard to react block in the other direction though so you only really get a high/low mix up if for some reason they don’t decide to one frame air throw you.
Where the behind thing REALLY comes into play is with an assist. With a long ranged assist you basically get a port that always crosses up no matter how far away you are from the opponent. With a beam assist…as long as they are on the ground you basically get what is effectively a full screen cross up into combos. Imagine being able to super fast jump forward across the screen and cross someone up as long as they’re on the ground. That’s what beam assist + Dante teleport basically is. This basically gives Dante the ability to threaten you to hold forward when attacking him from any range as long as you’re near the ground. It’s probably the scariest cross up in the game since you basically have to always deal with a cross up as long as Dante is on the ground with a beam assist.
At closer ranges with fast assists it basically gets even more auto pilot because you can pretty much just let an assist rip and then teleport before or after the assist hits them. If you teleport before the assist hits them…cross up. If not…it’s a fake cross up and you get a combo any ways. As long as the assist is relatively fast and keeps them in good hit stun this is a viable about 50/50 as it gets mix up. [/details]
HSIEN KO (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Hsien Ko: Forward ground dash (by my tacky definition…is basically a teleport).
Forward dash = 50 total frames. 16-30 is invincible.
Overall: Without an assist it’s just a standard set distance teleport similar to Wesker or Akuma except more punishable than both of theirs. Wesker’s has 20 frames of recovery but at least he can only be hit during 10 of those recovery frames (the other 10 he’s off screen still from the port but accounts for visual ability to punish). Hsien Ko is punishable for 20 frames period which means with an assist you can do stuff funny left/right stuff with this but without assist…not getting a ton of mileage IMO. [/details]
FELICIA (HYBRID)
[details=Spoiler]
Felicia: Pass through move with off screen/invincible frames (cat and mouse/cat crawl). Hybrid teleport/pass through move.
Hybrid pass/port move (cat and mouse/cat crawl) = 5 frame start up, 30 active frames, 15 frame recovery, invincible frames 6 - 35.
Generally a hybrid move of port and pass through properties. Has active frames listed in the guide like Captain America’s and Frank’s cartwheels/rolls…but also invincible for 30 frames. Also giving it the properties of a teleport where she’s off screen and unable to be hit. It just travels more slowly than a port. Without assists it has 15 recover frames but she’s still invincible during 5 of the recovery frames. Leaving you at 10 frames that you can actually hit her (which doesn’t really matter that much when you know she can’t hit you). Without assists in general you’re not going to get a lot of mileage out of this move outside of passing through projectiles from characters that don’t have highly damaging beam supers. Don’t even try this move against anyone with a damaging beam style super unless you don’t like Felicia. I would only even try this move in general without an assist if you’re in like XF2/3 for the speed increase.
With an assist it basically becomes a slower moving version of X-23’s or Zero’s pass through moves to set up cross ups. Justin Wong of course has been known for the cat and mouse + Frank cart cross ups (can do this with any assist really). Felicia can set up her own left/rights without assist much more safely with M cat spike.
She can also use H delta kick + assist as a faster, safer alternative to cat and mouse + cross. This is the left/right + assist mix up that DjHuoshen traditionally uses. As a matter of fact this mix up is so good that you can even use an assist with the H trick to set up half screen cross ups. [/details]
WESKER (TELEPORT)
[details=Spoiler]
Wesker: 3 ground based teleports and 3 aerial based teleports. All teleports are screen placement oriented like Deadpool or Super Skrull.
Ground forward teleport = 11 frame start up, 20 frame recovery.
Ground backwards teleport = 11 frame start up, 25 frame recovery
Ground above opponent teleport = 11 frame start up, 20 frame recovery
Aerial forward teleport = 11 frame start up, 35 frame recovery
Aerial backwards teleport = 11 frame start up, 40 frame recovery,
Aerial to ground port = 11 frame start up 25-28 frame recovery
Wesker has the most varied set of teleports in the game. He’s not like other characters that have air OK ports. His air teleports have their own properties and frames in comparison to the ground ones. Making it so if you don’t play Wesker already it’s imperative to at least understand the frames on all of the ports and where the ports locate Wesker so you aren’t just watching god fly around you all day.
His ground forward port travels him forward a set far distance in relation to where he was. It’s kinda like what would happen if Akuma in SFIV could only do his far teleport forwards and backwards. He essentially just moves forward or backwards a very far distance. Meaning if Wesker is already near you he has no reason to teleport without calling an assist first. The closer Wesker is to you if he has an assist the more you should be expecting an assist to teleport mix up. The ground forward port has typical 20 frame recovery so if he does it anywhere near you without an assist call unless he’s in XF2/3 a fast 5 or 6 frame normal with decent range should be a guaranteed punish.
His ground backwards port is mainly just for turtling. The only time you’re probably going to see a Wesker use this port is to retreat to the back of the screen after firing a gun if they’re afraid of getting rushed down from the air. This has 5 more frames of recovery than the forward one but it doesn’t really matter since he’s going to move backwards outside of the range of anything but a beam super or super fast horizontal super.
The ground above opponent teleport is the one that’s most difficult to deal with especially if he’s in XF2/3. In XF2/3 this gives him a near unseeable 4 way mix up if placed in the right spot in the right distance. It’s basicaly a Dante/Vergil style port except it doesn’t track where the opponent moves so you basically plinko drop it down on people when you’re sped up like Zero to high low them or cross them or fake cross them up. This teleport travels less of a distance than the forward ground port so it’s imperative to understand that he will not move as far towards you or behind you during this port. Use that to gauge whether he will land in front or behind after the port. If you catch him using this port without an assist or without being in XF just dash once to go under it or air throw or S punish it if you’re close enough. His j.S has a hit box that will stuff most stand normal anti airs so don’t use those normals for punishment. Stick with big hit boxes like S or air throw or just dash under and try and punish a whiff or just wait and stay on top of him afterwards.
The aerial forward and backwards movement ports are Wesker’s compensation for not being able to air dash. These allow him to hang in the air for long periods of time. Mainly because he can teleport in any forward or backwards direction 3 times (3 forward dashes, 3 backwards dashes, 2 forward 1 backward etc.). This allows him to be pretty solid at laming out XF’s and generally allow him to traverse the screen without dealing with all the hit boxes on the screen for a while. The one thing to remember about these ports though is that they are PRETTY UNSAFE. Don’t whiff the L or M ports even if you’re in XF against anyone with a beam super or fast travelling aerial move. You will get hit because both the L and M air ports have what is essentially 2/3’s of a second of recovery. Although they give you more attacking options than just super jumping around you can easily get hit out of bad call since you basically have to give up your air blocking for 2/3’s of a second anytime you do one.
The aerial to ground port (air H port) is essentially what Wesker does when he wants to get back on the ground after he feels like he’s traversed enough ground with the L and M air ports. This port instantly shoots Wesker back to the ground so he can block and attack and fight from the ground again. The only issue with these ports is that even then have a 25+ frame recovery attached to them. If you teleport to the ground and are not aware of what the opponent is doing under you, you will get hit and put in a combo. [/details]
ZERO (PASS THROUGH)
[details=Spoiler]
Zero: One of the only characters in the game with more than one pass through move. One that is only available in the air that shoots a lightning bolt a bit after he actually travels across the screen himself. The other is a typical pass through style move that he has available on both the air and the ground. He then also has an aerial version of the typical pass through move that has ITS OWN set of frames also. Meaning the opponent has 9 different pass through moves to account for when fighting Zero which is part of what makes him really overwhelming to deal with once he gets in.
Downwards lightning strike (raikousen, air only) = 30 frame start up, 8 ~ until grounded recovery, plus 20 on hit, plus 17 on block.
Straight lightning strike (raikousen, air only) = 30 frame start up, until grounded recovery, plus 5 on hit, plus 4 on block.
Upwards lightning strike (raikousen, air only) = 30 frame start up, until grounded recovery, negative 14 on hit, negative 14 on block.
Short distance ground pass through move (Hienkyaku, only travels forward) = 5 frame start up, 25 frame recovery
Far distance ground pass through move (Hienkyaku, only travels forward) = 5 frame start up, 35 frame recovery
Above Opponent ground pass through move (Hienkyaku, goes set distance based on location) = 5 frame start up, 22 frame recovery
Air to ground pass through move (Air Hienkyaku) = This move has no listed frame data (I’ll explain why later)
Aerial forward pass through move (Air Hienkyaku) = 6 frame start up, 20 frame recovery
Aerial above opponent pass through move (Air Hienkyaku) = 6 frame start up, 21 frame recovery
Alright so definitely gonna be a few things to explain about Zero. Firstly he’s confusing to fight against if you don’t understand his pass through moves (similar to Wesker) because he literally has like NINE of them. All with varying frame data and properties. He has no real wave dash or threatening aerial dash so he basically gets a shit ton of pass through moves to compensate.If Zero is moving near you expect one of the nine pass through moves very soon.
**Firstly we’ll start with his aerial only pass through moves. The Raikousen. **This move essentially works where Zero dashes towards you at a fast speed without any shadow trail or anything (this is your cue that he is using raikousen and not hienkyaku). Once he dashes near you better have your air throw ready because that’s only thing that might punish the start up of this move. Once Zero finishes dashing forward a lightning bolt suddenly emits in the same direction he traveled. If you are doing anything but blocking once this emits you are in some shit. This move is even safe to XF guard cancels (especially the downwards one) so don’t even bother trying unless you have a fast invincible super.
Essentially he has 3 types. The one that shoots downward diagonally, the one that shoots straight and the one where he shoots upward. The one that shoots downwards grants heavy frame advantage on hit or block and causes soft knockdown as he travels forward allowing it to lead to combos easily. The forward raikousen does grant frame advantage still on hit or block but not as much as the downward one. The aerial one is pretty negative on hit or block but travels at an angle that allows you to cross up airborne opponents and set them up for combos.
**His ground pass through moves (hienkyakus) are vital to his movement because they are the second fastest starting pass through moves in the game (only 5 frames of start up). **This means that if Zero is near you and has an assist ready…you better be holding the other direction on the stick pretty much preemptively if you don’t wanna get fucked up. Just like X-23, you’re not going to be able to react to him moving behind you 5 frames after an assist is about to touch you. By that time Zero will be behind you and the assist will smack you in the face and he gets a combo. Even if you block it correctly the assist still grants him frame advantage for more pressure.
Unlike X-23 he actually gets 2 different lengths of these pass through moves in the same forward direction. The L one travels him forward a smaller distance and has 25 frame recovery. The M one travels him further but has 10 more frames of recovery at 35. Meaning these moves are great with an assist to cross people up for free but if you use them without an assist you’re basically gambling with Zero’s life. These are not moves you want to use at all without an assist other than to avoid someone’s attack in a risky manner. The thing to remember about these two moves if you are facing another Zero is that these aren’t teleports so Zero is vulnerable the entire time more like a super fast wave dash that can pass behind you. That means if you mash on throw as he passes through you you can simply throw him out of the L or M hienkyakus and gain free damage or a mix up into free damage based on your character. Always be ready to one frame regular throw or fast start up command grab any bad hienkyakus. The M one specifically moves him forward too far and too fast to rely on a normal punish but a 1 frame throw punish will get the job done easy if he doesn’t protect it with an assist.
The H hienkyaku is simply an above opponent teleport where he can ambiguously land in front or behind you with his j.H or land and do a c.L for a low. His c.L is 4 frame start up so this can create some really ambiguous 4 way mix ups once he gets in range. [/details]
I’m wondering what happen if you are moving/wavedashing vs tracking port
whoa…
one thing that you seem to be missing in your port frame times is that even though “recovery” can be very small sometimes like 6 frames… that doesnt meam that thats actually the recovery. for instance bison sf4 recovery is listed as 6 frames or whatever it is… thats just straight up a lie or is very misleading for capcom to "list’ it that way. if they are listing it that way then they are basically using its “active frames” after he reappears, in place of recovery frames… ie they are talking about his recovery AFTER HE HAS BECOME FULLY ANIMATED not his recovery once hes seeable. this is i think the same thing that happens in marvel with those frame times… capcom is basically smoking the crack.
anywho, to go on an assist based trackng teleport that crosses up recovers MUCH faster than a regular teleport that crosses up. cause with even semi decent timing you can call assist THEN WAIT then teleport and time it so that you side change a few pixels before the beam hits (beams arent full screen instantly they have travel time that is manageable) those types of crossups are just as good as b-slash mixups and even safer and no they arent blockable on reaction UNLESS the opponent is waiting for the beam and then immediately blocking crossup as soon as he sees it. but… thats a guess. liek how we can all block b-slash on reaction… but we cant distinguish which side it would hit on.
anywho, thats just one thing i had to say about that. im going to make something to eat and read your full posts now. :tup:
-dime
I always felt it was hard to punish Bison’s ports without an option select since it definitely did feel like he was only actually hittable for 6 frames. Yeah he’s telegraphed by sitting there in his purple warp animation but you still can’t touch him except for a very few set of frames at the end of the port. I prefer Marvel’s ports because even though you can call assists in the middle and all those shenanigans at least once the character is visible on screen every visible frame they are on screen after the port until they recover they can be hit. There’s no “I’m here but you can’t hit me” frames like in SFIV.
In the older SF games like 3S and ST you had the same set of frames but the actual recovery frames that you could hit the opponent during the teleport were much longer. You didn’t need option selects and crap just to punish a teleport
newschool ports are retarded, the point that i was making is that i feel that the way they are handling frames in mvc3 is different from how they handle them in sf4.
for instance going back to the dante example, perhaps he himself doesnt “recover” immediately upon porting… but hes still considered as to having crossed up. this only reallymeans something when he ports with an assist. also maybe its just me… but phoenixs port is ridiculously hard to react to… and im not even talking dp here… im just talking about jean. so having all those frames of recovery doesnt mean doo doo squat if she doesnt really telegraph her move on the first frame…
ie some back of the napkin numbers:
it takes the human brain AT LEAST 12 frames to react to something… but realistically its around 17-20 frames. now, if phoenix teleports right next to her opponent they have to be able to SEE THE FIRST FRAME AS A TELEPORT in order to be able to react to her disappearing. now they have 20 frames to block or hit a button… plenty of time.
however if we take out the ability to see and know that a teleport is actually a teleport from the first frame… instead of something different. it actually will be around frame 15-20 before the opponent realizes that “something” just took place. it’ll be even longer before they realize that “something” was a teleport. once they realize that they just saw a teleport and that that means block the opposite way… i think lots of people are already getting hit.
at least thats what i played against when i played agaoinst my friend that used phoenix first and used to raw teleport all the time with her (like 5 times a match or so) i never even had a chance to block much less make the more calculated slower decision of upbacking or mashing normals.
so in the end its theory fighter to me to say that some of the ports can be reactively punished. some such as dantes and akumas can cause they arent changeable at all and they also always got to the same spot if used offensively. to me its NOT about recovery. its about how much a move telegraphs its startup animations. i can see the 4th frame of moves and beyond on most fighters…but when they dont telegraph themselves it doesnt mean jack shit cause i dont know what im looking at until very late into the moves animation. this is why its easier for me (and everyone else) to block ibukis F+mk overhead (telegraphs by leaving the ground early in its sequence) but spencers overhead as well as rogs etc etc are harder cause they either dont leave the ground fast or they dont leave the ground at all.
so yeah, animation has alot to do with it imho
-dime
I had my own ways of dealing with Rog’s overhead stuff. I would reaction throw him out of any EX overhead punch or EX punch in general since he’s flashing fucking yellow as a dead giveaway to anybody who plays fighting games with some seriousness. I always preemptively blocked high anytime Rog dashed forward because the only rush punch Rog could do big damage off of without super was the overhead one so there was no reason not to. The game is mostly about spacing any ways with how low the damage is on everything so if you took a couple low rushes against a version of Rog with literally no pressure or damage game in comparison to his ST version…you just did it. The worst that would happen is that you would lose the health lead for a bit but that’s pretty much how you play that game any way. Fish for health leads and sit on em.
As far as the teleports…I reaction punish raw Wesker L ports that are anywhere near me very easily these days because I used to play against one of the best Wesker players in the area regularly. Surprisingly enough I probably have more trouble ATM reaction punishing Dante ports because I’m the only person except for like one other guy that still plays Dante in the area and online doesn’t really give you a good threshold for reaction punishing raw ports so only so much can be done there. If I got to play against a Dante more than once a month I’m sure I would be reaction punishing those also. Online against a random Dante…yeah not gonna punish cuz I just don’t get to play any Dante’s like that where I can reaction punish though I play plenty of people offline that blow me up if I even think about raw porting with Dante. Like for example if I get too obvious even with my assist + teleports DjHuoshen will purposely do a meteor smash with super skrull so I end up tracking into his meteor smash instead of crossing him up with the beam assist. Which means having a tracking teleport actually works against you when fighting some characters.
If Wesker does an H port I always know to at the very minimum dash under the H as long as he’s above my head. Offline it’s not that hard to reaction see him above your head and then just dash under. You even get enough time to punish if you go behind the hit box of his j.S as you dash behind him. It’s just not confusing to avoid in general the more you play against Weskers. The only time it becomes remotely confusing is when he’s in XF2/3.
With the Dante ports in general like you said…I’m sure it’s probably even easier because if you see him port you can use the same punish everytime instinctively basically. If I see a port air throws are one frame so you know you’re going to win. All of Dante’s air normals take 8 to 13+frames to release so if you can’t reaction punish that you’re probably like 65 years old. I see punishing the ports in this game offline like hit confirming or practicing a skilled but practical combo in most fighting games. If you don’t practice it…it’s not going to seem practical.
Even when it comes to the stuff like the overheads again…I’ve definitely talked to people who think they can reaction punish Vergil’s air dash H or dash up c.L mix up in DT everytime (if you don’t account for XF). I tested it with a couple friends and they definitely had trouble reaction ground blocking it. They all just reaction chicken blocked to both options instead which also works. Which is fine since I run Vergil towards anchor now any way where Vergil can get up to 40 percent speed increase any way.
**The main thing though that makes ground overheads easier to deal with in this game chicken blocking. **Reaction chicken blocking anything you feel is an overhead from a character like Spencer who can’t stagger his c.L’s is not that difficult to do on reaction. If you couldn’t block his overhead in the air or something it would be a bit scarier but that’s no the case. He has to commit to something else that has it’s own start up and recovery and what not to stop you from chicken blocking his overhead. He’s not like Magneto or Dante where he can force c.L staggers to keep you from jumping or advance guarding. Spencer has to get really creative to keep you from chicken blocking in general because of the way his normals work whereas characters with the rapid fire c.L’s can just hold you on the ground with them and then call assist and get free mix up.
**Overall I feel if you know the frame data for the game you can punish most of the raw teleports in the game on reaction with practice. ** It’s not anything out of reach at all and the main reason I can tell that in tournaments people don’t feel raw ports are that reliable is simply because they just don’t do them unless they’re in XF2/3. Which is the whole point of XF is just making you fast enough so you can land hits and turn things around since you don’t have the normal tools to do so. If the raw ports really were that reliable and safe to punishes you’d see top players opting to not use their assists until they get in point blank range and run the raw ports but nobody at high level play regularly does that with any character except like Deadpool, Vergil or Jill where it’s practical to do so.
You only see raw teleports regularly at high level for the XF hurp durp where it’s harder to punish on reaction.** People would take the change more often at that level of play if they really were that good raw outside of XF. Who really wants to take that risk in a game with one frame air throws, whiff cancellable everything, generally cancellable everything including dashes to make dash punishes on ports like Wesker’s more easy also?** Plus all teleports except maybe Jill’s and Akuma’s follow a rule where you can’t whiff cancel them with anything but XF. Which puts you even more at a deficit in a game where you don’t wanna be doing anything remotely unnecessary unless YOU KNOW it’s going to work.
When it comes to most of the ports in the game the games hit boxes and frames on throws give you what you need to do things on reaction. You can do almost anything on reaction with one frame ground and air throws. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to on reaction punish an above head teleport from Dante or even Vergil when the air throw is one frame start up. They just have nothing fast enough from the air to punish a one frame move. You can reaction one frame ground throw Zero out of bad ground hienkyakus because…it’s one freaking frame it’s doing the work for you basically.
All in all though it doesn’t really matter too much in the end because no top player is going to use a port or pass through move in a situation where you can punish it any ways. It’s generally going to backed by an assist where you can’t do anything past jumping over the assist or reaction blocking the opposite direction after hearing/seeing the assist call (considering they decide to actually cross you up. The only time top players raw port regularly is when they’re in XF or they see a guaranteed punish opportunity.
I’m just putting the data out there so people can get a better grasp of what they can put together to reaction punish some of the slower recovery or above opponent ports/pass throughs with.
Surely not relating to the current topic and most likely already answered, but did they actually remove teching on recovery frames? I ask because we have a Dante player who has a tendency to raw teleport and whenever he does, sometimes he’ll catch you at jump height with a throw (It’s online so there’s a lot of leeway… Those 10+ frames probably don’t even exists between the frame-skipping). Even if you try to grab him pre-emptively knowing he’s going to teleport, he’ll at least tech the grab.
That’s the thing…especially if you play online you’re not going to understand the concept of regularly punishing raw ports because I can barely do half my bnbs online in the delay let alone regularly punish a raw port. They already fixed the throw tech thing but it doesn’t really matter too much because the other thing people don’t realize about throws is that you get 7 frames to tech out of them any way. Dante recovers quickly enough after a raw port in the air where if he’s mashing on f+H he’s still going to tech your air throw.Which is not really a big deal at all cuz then you know he’s mashing on a slow normal so you can jump up and air normal or stay on the ground and S punish.
I just don’t play this game much online in general because in order to play it to any sort of consistency with how fast the game is, you need every frame accounted for. Counter hitting Dante’s slow H normals after he raw ports to tech out of a throw is definitely more of a risk online than offline.
If the friend you’re talking about is regarding offline play…then everything above stands. Just jump normal or s.S punish him for free counter hit.
I’d like to point out that Deadpool’s Teleport malfunction could always be combo’d into easily. It’s just easier now with the new cancel.
TEST
So it’s easier than easy now? Too bad DR Ray didn’t think to do that at Evo.
The discussion between DevilJin and Dime-X make me curious. I checked some teleport (frame by frame) and about Wesker…
Phantom move is hard to explain. In my opinion it’s more like the command dash of Ibuki+ a ghost mode. He doesn’t really teleport. He move but he is invisible and you see his phantom but it’s not him. To explain better its a jaguar dash with the true wesker invisible. When he prepare his move you see him dash (phantom move L), backdash (phantom move M) or jump (phantom move H) and when he reappear you see him keep moving like he was running.
The funny thing is even if he is invisible, the camera still tracking him during the move and don’t care about his ghost
The 20 frames of recovery start before even he disappear…
Phantom move L looks like that :
1f~9f (wesker prepare his run and you see what he choose to do)
10f : the ghost of wesker appear with him
11f : Wesker disappear and we see only his ghost who stay in the same place like a photography of his last move (ibuki style)
12f : The 20 frame of recovery start now… but you only see the ghost of wesker at the same place
13f~18f : The true wesker is yet invisible, we only see the ghost at the same place always
19f : The ghost disappear
20f : Here we go, the true Wesker reappear at last
31f : End of the move
So when you see Wesker, he can act 12 frames after that because the “recovery” listed by the bradygames don’t start at this moment.
Plus, with Phantom move H (teleport above) he recovery 10 frames after he reappear (less than phantom move L).
I quickly checked Dante and he has the same thing about the recovery. He can act 7 frames after he reappear xD. Plus i don’t know why but his teleport has a trick. The opponent doesn’t seem to notice that dante is behind him until he touch the ground. In fact Dante can land like a ninja and the game will never turn automatically his opponent. It’s weird
Vergils teleports I think are the best in game because he can choose to stay on the ground and position himself against super jump bs so he can blow it up.
Beyond that utility vergil and wesker are the only characters I feel have teleports that no matter how well I practice I can never consistently predict how things will work out because I literally have to guess where they appear. At least when dante teleports I can up+f and try to go for a grab or at least chicken block the setup so I’m not in that bad of a position because I know 100% what is going to happen. Those 2 characters make it truly impossible to know where they’ll be because something as slight as a couple frames difference in pressing in the button complete change how the situation works out.
Also vergil’s port is so fast he is at enough advantage after pretty much any assist to tag you low before you can leave the ground so holding up+b can be severely dissuaded which can lead to more assist mixups or assist + RT setups.
However, still think drones are the best anti-tele assist in the game. If you tele when drones are out your going to die.
c-nul… you’ve always been the man in my eyes. even on the chun boards you always had that concise info that helped people level up there game.
yeah, your results are exactly what i was talking about though i dont a have a 60 fps camera to count frames and whatnot (that is how you are coming up with these frame results isnt it?)
but pretty much you confimr what ive suspected… that the teleport frame data is wrong from a classical frame data point of view.
if you could… do you think you could observe the frames on phoenixs teleport… that piece of shit is ridiculously fast. and deadpools would be nice as well 
-dime
Hi Dime ^^. Thanks for the comment, really :).
You guess right, i use 60 fps videos. I should start by that : explain how i get those results.
It’s Noodle from Tekken Zaibatsu forum who inspire me to do that. I have the Hauppage HDPVR (720 p+60 fps). Most of the time i record a move and i keep holding up to make the caracter jump. So after that i can see when the recovery end because i know it take 4 frame to be airborn, etc. About recovery in the air i use the turbo on my stick and i hope a normal move will come at the right time. Of course i double and triple check every move because HDPVR x My Notebook can drop some frames sometimes (it’s rare). I analyse the video with avidemux
About Deadpool and Phoenix, instead of sound like my words versus bradygames guide words, i prefer provide videos (megaupload or dropbox) like that everone can check/understand what’s going on. I will try to do that today later.