Woman's Tourney Thoughts

I noticed a sharp lack of aggression from the girls in the finals. Most of the fights went to extremely low time counts. Sometimes even timing out. Which in itself is fine, defensive play is fine~ but I’m wondering where a lot of these girls get their training. Who teaches them, and where do they normally play? Those playstyles would not survive most of the rush down tactics that we see in regular play.

Is it online that is the main fuel behind a lot of the tactics we saw the girls play under? Do most train alone, or do they have others in the community they play against?

Burnyourbra could have won a few of those matches simply by switching her aggression at certain parts of the fight, but generally saw from all players, a run back to zone approach which was not working for them at all. Especially considering that whenever they DID go offensive (When she picked Ken and Rose) it was effective. Yet she would abandon what was effective the instant it was stopped even once~

I wonder if this is something that we’ll see from the girls next year, and could be a part of a greater example of psychology from girls in the genre (doubtful from such a small sample size) or just says more about the level of learning being provided to them in the area they come from. There was a lot more approaches based on reactionary and defensive play and positioning, and not really establishing any kind of true sustainable offense. Perhaps I’m misreading?

Burn lives in TX now. She played a few locals up in MN before she moved. I believe she is with FNEX and plays online sometimes,Burn was on my friends list but we only played a few times.

I’m not going to bother reading any more of this shitheap but I skimmed through, here are some points.

Just because there are some psychological differences between the sexes that are biologically influenced, doesn’t mean that:

  • Every traditionally “male” or “female” trait can be directly linked to biological factors in the incredibly simplistic mode of “well girls are biologically less competitive, that’s why there’s less of them in our scene”
  • Socialization plays no role in creating/reinforcing gender differences and can be completely ignored (I guess you think black people are biologically predisposed to be less intelligent than white people too?)
  • It’s okay to take a regimented binary approach to the socialization of men and women with no regard for the massive differences in psychology between individuals of the same gender, and the massive anguish caused to millions of people who fail to conform to our societal norms
  • Patriarchy doesn’t exist
  • Patriarchy isn’t a massive influence on our understanding of gender roles
  • The massive discrepancy in respect afforded to traditionally “masculine” and “feminine” pursuits (eg: young girls who like boys’ things are tomboys, young boys who like girls’ things are a cause for concern) can be justified by biology. Honestly I think this is perhaps as much a product of a plutocratic discourse as a patriarchal one but that’s another thread.

Given how self-assured you guys seem on this topic, I assume you have some links to well-regarded, peer-reviewed studies relating to the biological influence on non-physical differences between men and women? I’d genuinely be interested. The problem here is that even from the differences observed it’s incredibly difficult to make assumptions about how that affects behavior in reality when there are so many other confounding factors at play. Psychological differences between the sexes have been observed in babies as young as a few months, so while it seems reasonable to assume that there are biological factors at play here, we can really have no idea how big a role those influences play in a society whose entire structure is designed to maintain male domination. What we do know is that huge psychological variance exists even between members of the same sex, and thus it seems not only reasonable, but undeniably moral to socialize people on an individual basis, rather than forcing them into prefabricated roles, psychological consequences be damned.

It’s rather akin to the feminist argument that there is no problem with women choosing to be homemakers, nurses, secretaries etc… what is problematic is how patriarchy reinforces the notion that such choices are the only ones, restricting the freedom of millions of women who might have rather made other choices. And yes, I know things are getting better for women and it’s rare to see explicit arguments made publicly for such simplistic divisions these days (as evidenced by this thread, though, most likely only because it’s socially unacceptable and not because people don’t still believe it), but our entire society is still founded on a discourse that reinforces the subjugation of women even if it’s not so explicit.

More people playing street fighter is enough for me.

PSN: Gungirl-

I never post on SRK but this thread is dumb; I may not be at the same level as the girls in the tournament but I’m pretty sure I can beat most of the guys posting in this thread.

PSN MajinSweet

As a male that is horrible at SSF4, I accept this challenge.

This, but for 3S.

Proceed…

I really, really like your post~ so please don’t take this the wrong way, but where in the thread is anyone challenging the female gender so much as to say there is a difference between the genders just based on Evo? People are commenting mainly on what they saw on screen~ the peer-reviewed study was the actual event itself and the people who actually watched it.

Also, please keep in mind~ ever since this tournament was announced, the majority reaction by both players and even some girls was that the tournament itself was kind of an oddity since most gamers feel girls can pick up a controller and play this game at any time. There was already a very powerful view of equality before Evo even started. This isn’t like football, or the infantry in the military where people are saying “No, you can’t”. I don’t think anyone has flat out told these girls that they are not allowed to play SF. I know what you’re saying, this is a deeply rooted problem, more related to society and the relationships built in households and schools and just, between people in our culture in general. I just don’t see how this has anything to do with us as a community.

Nobody here has ever told a girl that they can’t sit down on the couch and play some SF. That they can’t go in the training room and practice basic bread and butter combos before showing up to Evo. That they cannot beat males at a game where sex has no real freaking factor in who wins and who loses. This is a problem way beyond the fighting game community~ and I am not sure it’s fair to ask people here to offer you data, or research or anything related to the psychology between men and women when for the most part, we are well beyond the power curve when it comes to allowing girls play in even territory. There are many, many other games in this world that seperate men and women. Nearly every sport does this as well as other games and challenges segregate women from men at the core ruleset.

When a guy challenges a girl with trash talk and challenges her to beat him, it’s no different than him doing it to anyone else. They can choose to rise to the challenge, or not. Nobody can really choose for them. The SRK, for all its sexism and immaturity, has by default already taken the stance that anyone can play. The very nature of video gaming in itself has absolutely no bar for entry for any age, race or gender. Nobody can really be expected to adjust their perspective based on aspects of society that have nothing to do with video gaming as a social activity. There is no need to rally to allow these girls to play and be at the level required to play at an intermediate to advanced level, no fight is being made to allow them to do something they’ve been subjugated against.

All the research papers in the world are not going to take the place of the one scientifically respected method for seeing fighting games develop and grow in the first place: actual tournaments and word of mouth. That’s just all it’s really going to come down to.

Maybe I’m being too influenced by the exchanges in this thread, but I definitely think people are making the case that most women are simply not biologically predisposed to want to play SF, or to be good at it, and the ones that are are biological anomalies. That’s the position I was responding to.

ITT: White Knights and people who really just don’t care and are just expressing their opinions.

Quit getting so butt hurts because some people have a different opinion than you.

Yeah, I saw that thread. Everything that needed to be said on it will stay there. Most people here are not going to break the culture wall that brought about the feelings the women’s tournament left within the community. None of these threads are really going to change a thing. You know what will though?

Stuff like that. End of story, girls want to play~ they have a few choices. They are very important ones, and they need to be taken seriously. The first being what stick they want to buy, and if they want to add buttons to it or buy a new stick. Then they have to want to see if they want to run Seimitsu or Sanwa in there, we have a Tech Forum for that. Maybe they would prefer a pad, in which case there are a few to choose from. The most important step though, is also one of the easiest to perform~ and I guarantee that all the misogyny and sexist arguments that we could possibly even discuss in this thread will have nothing to do with its simplicity…

…and that is plugging in your chosen controller to the console and pressing Start.

I don’t know. Of course I applaud women who want to get into the scene and encourage more of them to do so, but I’m skeptical of the argument that any marginalized group should be the sole bearer of responsibility for ending their own marginalization. I think greater inclusiveness can only be achieved by a combination of efforts from both the minority and majority groups. Presumably the Evo staff agrees, because the women’s tournament’s stated intention was to reach out to a minority group. Problem is we have small number of people who are actively resistant to women getting involved in the scene at all, and a much larger number (perhaps even a majority) who only want women in the community if it’s on their terms, i.e. they can continue to act like objectifying assholes. And most of the rest are just apathetic.

It’s easy to use the bootstraps argument of “well if women want more women at tournaments they should start going to them,” but history, from the Suffragettes to the black civil rights movement to the ongoing gay civil rights movement (sorry if I’m attaching too much gravity to this situation, lol) shows that, short of resorting to violence, it takes not only a vocal minority, but a sympathetic majority to enact change. Of course the problem here, as with the fight for racial equality in a world where (to take an extremely west-centric view) the most tangible goals of the movement have already been achieved, is that we aren’t concerned with removing material obstacles to equality but rather challenging deeply ingrained attitudes. You might argue that’s beyond the scope of Evo, but I think we have a duty to make some sort of effort in whatever small field of influence we control.

First step? As I said in my other thread, at least some rules of conduct about acceptable behaviour on the stream would be nice, and not having women compete in side-show events while they’re patronized by the commentators would be nice too.

Personally, I enjoyed watching the women’s division stuff. Anything which helps to make our scene more diverse and less insular is a good thing. Regarding the role of women in the fighting game scene today, and the hostility I keep seeing towards not only a women’s division but frequently towards women in general around these parts, ask yourself: what are YOU doing to contribute to the existing skill disparity with your attitude?

Is it natural that women, compared to men, aren’t on the average capable of being as good at SF? Perhaps that is true, perhaps not. Personally, I suspect it isn’t true. But we won’t ever know unless we all do our part to foster an environment that’s as inclusive as possible. One nice thing about the competitive fighting game scene is an incredible amount of ethnic diversity amongst the people who play at the highest levels…but let’s suppose that the FG community had instead come of age during say, an era of Jim Crow segregation, or apartheid.

We would most likely hear the same sorts of arguments we currently hear about women’s skill potential directed towards nonwhites. And in fact, historically speaking, we DID hear those very same arguments, in every domain in life - sport, politics, the workplace, you name it. Frequently, the legacy of that kind of discrimination still shows its ugly head, having very real effects on peoples’ lives, even if the discrimination isn’t institutionalized into law the way it used to be.

Now institutionalized racism as we know it, is at most several hundred years old - racism didn’t create slavery, but rather the growing need for slavery just to sustain the early stages of capitalist development, what Karl Marx once called the phase of “primitive accumulation of capital” created an ideological justification, in the form of racism, for the practices of the triangular Atlantic slave trade, the virtual slave labour conditions endured by Chinese railway workers, and the like.

Now let’s look at institutionalized sexism, which is THOUSANDS of years old - and so deeply entrenched in our society and our way of thinking so as to often seem like the natural way of the world (although in truth it started to spread only with the development of agriculture and class society) and to not understand that even though great strides have been made towards gender equality in the past century or so, that those of us who are concerned about such things are still fighting in our daily lives to overcome the legacy of literally thousands of years of cultural garbage.

In a world where even in the most supposedly progressive countries, just to give one example, women earn at most maybe 70 cents to every dollar a man does, to suggest that we can make some kind of definitive judgment of the skill of women fighting game players based on their current level of participation in what’s sadly a highly sexist domain is absurd.

In fact, I’m reminded a bit of John Milton, when he wrote:

“They who have put out the people’s eyes, reproach them of their blindness”

Major credit to EVO for helping to change that, and major credit to every single one of the women who participated (some of whom did show quite a bit of skill) and to the men who did the right thing and did their best to create a welcoming environment.

Pretty girls playing street fighter makes for good press.

You’re welcome.

Thank you for this post. I don’t agree with you about the value of the women’s tournament, but that’s a debate worth having when it takes place in a context that acknowledges patriarchy and the male gaze, not so much when any real discussion is stifled by obnoxious strawmen.

Here’s what I view as the net effect. A lot of females at home saw that final and felt they could compete (“I’m as good as those females!”), which gives them motivation to practice and come out next year. More females come out and the community grows. Pretty soon the sample set increases and that demographic pool starts producing talent.

It’s growing pains. This is good.

I was watching the stream and after it was over I walked away with a positive impression. I don’t think the current females are as good as the males, but that’s not because of some sexist thing, I just don’t think enough play to produce good talent (sort of like American vs European futball).

I think while there was some negative, the net effect was positive.

Not sure if you play sports or not, but while playing sports growing up I always had to shake hands with the opponent post match. It’s just something we did. Even if I hated the guy, the cheating, annoying motherf*cker I wanted to sock in the mouth, I had to shake his hand. So it is sort of unfathomable for me to not shake someones hands. Not saying it was a bad thing to do, as I can see why it went down that way.

Doubt it was because you are not nice or anything, as I’ve met you before once at SHGL’s house while sitting on the couch getting lectured by Gootecks on how horrible my Akuma was and you were pretty nice.

Just happened across these totally by accident, provides some food for thought I guess

Make Your Dude-Dominated Subculture More Accessible to Women - The Sexist - Washington City Paper

Sexist Comments of the Week: Tits or GTFO Edition - The Sexist - Washington City Paper

We’re not talking about when you started wanting to tap it, just when she got good. :stuck_out_tongue: