How can you not understand what I said? People respect you less using fei in HDR because you spam lk CW in the corner, with just QCF. Same way wall dive is frown upon by beginner players (just down charge + up + kick, everyone can do it).
People discounted SnakeEyez performance because Gief’s 360 is easy to perform, it is way easier to get in (it’s gief’s game once you got in, whether it’s ST/HDR ).
Yes and yes. But only under the assumption that everything else got better! Not just match ups. And it is NOT BROKEN, OR IMBALANCE ENOUGH to warrant a change to start with
If you are really open up to discussion, I wouldn’t mind digging up things for you.
That chart applies to starcraft but it doesn’t apply well to soccer game for instance.
It might or might not matters in fighting games (VF > ST > 3s > MVC2)
The only people discounting people for using HDR low tier broken characters are salty ST players that can no longer win. They are too stupid realize its a different game & should treat that way. ST is not HDR, now shut the fuck about it already…Geez
Ahh yes… it’s the age old HDR is trash because Zangief is “easier” to play.
Yes, that’s true, only true experts should be allowed to enjoy using Zangief at a competitive level. We should be excluding and crushing the dreams of young competitive players from using their favorite characters like Zangief, Hawk and Fei-Long. Ohh, is chicken wing too hard… TOUGH SHIT, you aren’t expert enough to use them. Begone you fiend, you gnat of the night how dare you use Fei-long in a tournament you un-expert.
Wait, are we talking anyone seriously who “discounted” Snake Eyez’s performance? I thought that was an obviously wrong position to take. So if Afrolegends wins with Balrog, great, lots of respect. If Snake Eyez wins with Zangief, no respect? What.
Also, the easier motion is not even part of it. Snake Eyez can do SPDs either way, so whatever. And let’s say just hypothetically that Snake Eyez could NOT do a regular SPD motion consistently. (That’s ridiculous, but this is just to illustrate the point.) So that would mean if only he could, he would be able to WIN EVOLUTION? Sounds like he deserves to win if he has that good of strategy and spacing and the only thing holding him back was some SPD motion. Of course, the SPD motion wasn’t holding him back and had really nothing to do with his win. He has a better hop and 4 frames less recovery on green hand. Great. He also wisely chose a character who countered the two top characters in the metagame. He also chose a character who has big disadvantage against Cammy, so it’s kind of lucky he didn’t run into me, like Kuni did! (Joke.)
But yeah, if anyone is discounting Snake Eyez win, then that sounds bad for the community and bad for competition. That should not be a respected stance to take.
Snake eyez win is legit, i’ve seen him clear out rooms with tournament players using ryu,ken, and gief. Even had he not used gief I still think he’d have placed high if not win evo.
To your first question, I’d say that I think money is the MAIN reason that MOST people invest lots of time and energy into projects. If he had, first not ignored my question ^_. , and flat out said his reasons involve money, I’d understand. I wouldn’t think less of him. I’m actually confused why he cares so much if he’s not benefiting financially off the game. Know what I’m saying?
Perhaps he thinks people will take his future tournament games seriously…if there’s still a tournament scene for his older games.
Or he’ll be able to better market himself to gaming companies for future jobs, if the HDR scene is still active.
I dunno, HDR was a smash hit, so I don’t think either of those two factors effect much of anything. I’d personally ignore the whole situation and move on. No reason to dwell in the past.
Edit: I will say one thing though, all the talk on this forum kinda killed any chance of getting a job on a fighting game development team. Remixing or designing lol This forum kinda killed any chance of that happening.
I dled NKI’s video and rewatched the youtube video. I guess I did confuse the two (relative vs. absolute). Another reason to not use the PS3 version :sad:. Hopefully someone can test the 360 version. Since it is based on the DC port, there probably is an extra frame of input lag compared to arcade ST.
Just to be clear, the comment I made about preferences had nothing to do with input lag. Input lag is obviously bad and no one prefers adding input lag. That comment was about people arguing too hard to “prove” their version is superior.
let me clarify something, when i talk about HF fans i’m talking about those who came from the 90s arcade days (i’m not sure if any new blood emerged after that, or a resurgance occurred after it was released on console, post ST era). most of the fans of HF who played it in the arcades are probably on avg 30something yrs or older. if you look at any of the fighting game attendees/participants today, those in that older age range usually (but not always) tend to gravitate towards the older games - games that have been around and maybe don’t require much of a learning curve or time to spend in getting good at (that’s kind of like why we always hear about alot of players “never practicing” for ST year round and just getting some warmup as an event nears. the majority of players at today’s tourneys are mid 20s and under (these are people who are probably still in school, and if anything, most likely have less priorities -on average- than say a 33 year old (who probably has a family, kids, career, etc). so these older fans of HF, if they do not show up, can you really blame them? (btw people like choi, valle, cole, etc show that anyone regardless of age can stay competitive, but people’s interests change over time as they get older. luckily for the community, these said individuals still have a desire for a young man’s game).
also, HF came out at a different time than today. there were no tournaments on the scale of evo (at least not to my knowledge) and people traveling long distances (more than 500 miles) was not common - at least not to me. i think i was barely in high school when HF came out. the most i used to do was travel to every arcade and every laundry mat/corner store that had the game within my city, wait to see if the local champions would show up, and try to challenge them until my $5.00 ran out. consider yourself lucky if you rolled with an older crowd who played and had a ride - so they could take you farther out to compete vs others. there was no online then, no forums to set meetings, none of that. the HF vs ST debate probably lasted maybe 3 - 5 yrs at most into ST’s lifespan. after that, the HF crowd just got old, and got into other things. and it was a losing battle anyway since HF was disappearing in arcades, making way for newer games.
SFA was a good series, but the play mechanics etc was not as close to SF2 as say ST was (hence, ST stayed as the “last link”). SFA is a totally different beast in itself and things like airblocking, v-isms, etc were enough to drive some from the SF:HF crowd to quit altogether. personally, i think SFA isn’t a mainstay for the simple fact that the numbers don’t justify it and also alot of the elements in that game transferred over to other games like CVS2 which was a main game for awhile (but that’s just my personal opinion).
vampire hunter, i’m not sure why america didn’t give that game more of a chance as i myself was a fan. to be fair i guess it was competing with alot of other franchises in general, and capcom never seemed to give it as much promotion as say the SF series. with regards to SF zero, IMO (and this is just my own view point, so anyone correct me if i’m wrong) but i feel alot of them ended up jumping on the CVS2 bandwagon since the game had similar elements plus extra (and it was just newer at the time).
i don’t think we are shunning them away. i mean, obviously the east coast is still running ST tourneys, so definitely we are not. but evo, you can’t blame them if they continue to go the HDR route. let’s be honest, strictly from a business/logistics perspective, you can’t justify having ST over HDR at their event. even at it’s peak, ST has never gotten the numbers compared to what HDR brought in (300+ participants each year). the decrease in number would have to be incredibly significant for them not to include the game (or to put in ST instead). at this point, if some of us still want to stay on pace with japan in ST and to prepare for SBO, it will solely fall on the east coast to maintain it at their tourneys (and pocket communities here and there of course).
SnakeEyez didn’t win because it’s easier to do an SPD. He won because he’s an exceptional player and put in tons of practice.
It’s really kind of sad. People get all wet in the pants whenever someone in Japan uses a low-tier character and wins a game or two against some other good players in tough matches. Videos are put up and people ooh and ahh. These moments are linked into any thread that dares question whether these matches are winnable against top players. You see, a true grandmaster can make it happen. But you sir, are no grandmaster! Still, people wish they could get to that level. And you almost get the impression that maybe someday…if they really wish for it hard enough…that they too could become Japanese.
It’s sad because SnakeEyez took Gief and ran a fuckin’ train through a laundry list of top players. It’s sad because for the first time in a long while our top 8 this year got shook way up. The former champ got 3rd, and all of the other top US and Japanese players placed 4th or lower. But did everyone get excited about new top players, about Gief winning for the first time ever, about how far the US skill level has progressed? Did people feel the need to evolve their tactics for fighting against Zangief or switch to the dark side and take up playing him to harness his power? For some people, these things happened. But for others, I guess it makes them feel more comfortable to write it off as easy-mode.
What morphs the sad into funny for me though is that if you question some of these people about Vega’s wall dive “loop”, T.Hawk’s throw traps, O.Sagat’s tiger spam, etc. in ST they’ll remind you just how much practice it takes to perfect those things. You can’t just sit down and do it. I guess SnakeEyez got lucky that he was able to get by without practicing his stuff…oh wait, that’s right, he did practice!
Whether people SHOULD discounted snake eyez’s performance is another issue altogether (I don’t think people should).
But you can’t help people to wonder if he can really pull it off if the motion didn’t change and you have to complete the motion in fewer frames.
I saw jodim of all people whiffed a SPD into jumping punch. So yeah, it is very possible that he could have a much higher chance to whiff, especially during EVO grand finals. Just sayin’
Well there is no change to rog’s motion (ok taps), so people won’t doubt whether alfrolegend can do the same in classic mode.
For HDR, he deserves to win, hands down.
But people (not me) are wondering if he can perform that good in vanilla (I don’t doubt a bit if he practices it).
snk-player - I respect your opinions but here are some details I want to point out:
I don’t blame older players for not having the time or energy to come out. I’m just saying if they want HF to be the main game (which wasn’t your point), folks need to show up rather than chat about it. And that’s the same that I expect for HDR. Having HF come back was actually discussed in the past (certainly not even 1/10th as much as this current issue) but not offline action was the reason it fell. I’m warning of the same, although it may not necessarily happen since there’s at least some support from HDR players.
As for turnouts back then, even NC had a capped and filled 128-man bracket back in MWC 1994. Big tourneys existed back then and players traveled far for them. Mike Watson went to Chicago. Ask roybisel about all the tourneys he’s traveled to. It was the same situation as now except not as many players were online on Usenet to communicate about them. Those are probably numbers that the SF2 scene should aspire to for every major.