You tell me.
:arazz:
Well let’s go by this chart:
super nohoho fighter ii x: Super Diagram Turbo Version 3
Look at the matchups considered hard for him such as Honda, O.Sagat and others that both players agree are hard for him.
I’m not a T-Hawk player so ask yourself if you would rather play those matchups in HDR or ST.
You are a troll.
Well Played 
I play Timothy Hawk, and I think everyone is a bad match up in Timothy’s favor except for cammy and honda. Both versions, ST and HDR. If not for those 2 match ups, he would be much stronger then akuma.
of course not. not my point either.
What have you done for me lately Eddie?
Now why would i give a fuck about them if they dont give fuck about me…Seriously all those OG ST players dont play anymore or went off playing SFIV.
If they dont want to support HDR then i dont want to know you. If you have negative things to say about HDR in an HDR forum go back to your dead ST forum.
The only reason we entertain you guys is that we are always welcoming players to build a bigger community. If you guys just going to complain that your game is better then continue your game & let us enjoy our game in peace.
Right now HDR has been the game for Evo & numbers are still strong. There is no reason to change this. If you want to help have bigger numbers then join us.
Damn you.
Now i have to marathon watch Raw & Delirious 
[media=youtube]OvdcN4csakk[/media]
Still the funniest Standup Comedy Moment Ever.
I don’t understand this perception at all. The ST community has been pretty self-sufficient and dedicated so I don’t get what part of the ST scene needs HDR players to survive. However, we’d certainly like HDR fans to give ST a fair try (since most ST fans have given HDR a fair try) and see whether it interests them (as it did for Marsgatti and Tecmo).
If we left out SF2 version-agnostic players (i.e. who don’t have a preference at all which version to play) and each fan only played the game he preferred, do you seriously think HDR tourneys would survive? But if you want to keep mocking the same ST players that have been at the forefront of keeping your HDR scene alive these past 2 years, then that’s your prerogative. Granted, some have been bashing HDR without giving it much of a try and I agree that’s not an educated opinion either.
This all goes back to my old “what have you done” argument where it just doesn’t make sense criticizing players who have been more dedicated to the very game you’re supporting than you’ve been and have since moved on. Of course, there are trolls on both sides and it’s easy and tempting to go with short, rude responses rather than talking about the facts. Just look at the upcoming elections…
I’m curious about the whole input lag deal. PS3 HDR has 3 frames of input lag as shown by the video linked a few pages ago. From what I can observe, ST has 3 frames of input lag (tested using kawaks in frame-by-frame mode). If they both have 3 frames of input lag, how does HDR have extra input lag? Is there any proof ST doesn’t have 3 frames of input lag? Honestly, I think people on both sides are trying too hard to justify their preferences.
I would hope people on both camps can just accept that some people like HDR better and some like ST better and move on. Instead of looking down on each other and having all this in-fighting, both sides should just promote their game of choice. It’s probably a lot more productive than arguing on forums anyway lol. If more people show up for ST, then play ST. If more people show up for HDR, then play HDR. It doesn’t seem all that complicated to me. The future of SF2 will be fine as long as people are playing SF2.
As far as who EVO decides to support, since they are a business they will probably support what brings in the most money. I think the ST guys should focus on making the EVO guys feel that ST would be feasible. The HDR guys should focus on showing up. Maybe they will have both and this will all be a non-issue (well it sounds better than women only SSF4 as an event lol).
I’ll cosign this. There’s been very little substance and way too much arguing about minutia in the past umpteen posts.
http://shoryuken.com/f2/why-hate-hdr-230262/index7.html#post8633234
I thought sirlin already responded to this kind of thing? I wonder why you say it now
Yeah, CWheezy beat me to posting that link to my previous detailed examples of how various experts contributed. It’s really insulting to hear Damdai say otherwise. Zero people were ever turned away to test, and the game includes lots of ideas and testing from lots of people. It’s just that when Cole (for example) says to remove crossup ability on Chun Li’s neckbreaker and NKI (for example) says don’t, that NKI will say he wasn’t listened to. That point isn’t about NKI at all, I could replace those names with other who thought different things about several other issues.
At the end of the day though, what matters is the game itself, how it turned out. Luckily, it has stronger worse characters. It has slightly weaker top characters. It has several matchups that are more fair than they were, like Dhalsim vs. Guile (the relevant change suggested by Choi, supported by vids he sent me of Kurahashi playing that match, showing how unfairly tough it is to deal with the free low punches under sonic booms). Or like O.Sagat vs like half the cast. Or Cammy vs Honda, now she can actually hit his hands, take less hit/block damage from them, deal more block damage herself with a safe cannon drill. There are many matchups that are more balanced, and I don’t think that’s even the debate.
For some reason, people seem to be arguing in favor of more imbalance. They want Cammy to be worse, they want Sagat to have large advantage over other characters. That’s deeply mysterious and goes against the mission that we all (yes, all the players who contributed) were trying to achieve. We were trying to make things more balanced, and we did it. But now there’s all this talk of going back to a game with many more imbalanced matchups? If you’re saying that JUST because the Japanese play ST (and don’t have HD Remix available even though they would like to play it), then it would be better to just say that, rather than argue in favor of intentional imbalance.
I agree with this as well. leaders of both camps should get in contact with Wiz and find out what EVO will even accept. Then we can try to unite the community to agree on something.
sigh I shouldn’t bring this up, but I’m really curious. Karma’s probably going to kicking my ass later because i brought this up.
Okay, here’s my question for you. Why do you even care about HDR now? Are you still getting paid for additional games sold? If you’re not, I see no reason to be defending the game now. Especially seeing how the company fired you. They’ll be benefiting from all your old and new hard work, and you’re getting nothing in return for your hard work. How’s that really work any way, at this point who’s benefiting from the game? The publisher, sony, you?
I think you’ve got lots of good ideas for future sirlin game products, but I think your reputation is getting hurt more than helped by posting in these threads. If you just ignored all the HDR debate now, you could focus on future projects instead of living in the past.
I’m not trying to act better than anybody here. One job I had, I got fired, and I didn’t bring it up in the future, mention it on my resume, etc. I was kinda bitter, but dwelling on the past wouldn’t accomplish anything so i just moved on.
I think you’re confusing an absolute number with a relative number. Arcade ST has 4-5 frames of input lag by default (as tested by NKI using this method: http://shoryuken.com/f2/testing-ccc2-input-lag-144797/). If you’re getting any more, you may have a converter lag issue. And FYI, 4-5 frames is normal and most Capcom arcade fighters have been tested to have the same amount of base input lag.
Now, according to the ST-HDR comparison video ([media=youtube]gmfL2DRzOM4[/media] for reference), PS3 HDR adds 3 frames of extra input lag on top of that base if you add the numbers up. Now, I don’t fully trust that video because it doesn’t have an LED switch attached to the button so you can’t be 100% certain that the button was activated the frame he claims to have pressed it. But either way, even if we’re off a frame, some extra lag is apparent from when the button is clearly depressed. However, it doesn’t mention the 360 version of HDR, which seems to have less input lag than the PS3 but still more than arcade ST.
Anyway, extra input lag isn’t just a preference but it affects the visual timing needed to perform link combos and shortens the reaction time needed to counter a move. For 3 frames, it would be the difference between 200ms (faster than average) and 250ms (slower than average).
That unfairly affects players like me who are already on the brink of slower than average reactions, making some guessing game situations impossible to deal with. Input lag is a big enough deal that it’s the main reason ST players dropped CCC2 a few years ago for the DC version, even though having the game on PS2 (instead of JP/burnt DC) was more convenient for tourneys.
As for playing whatever the tourney players want, exactly. And at local tourneys and majors, I think that’s exactly what will be happening. The issue is that people are thinking ahead to Evo and considering what sort of banner to unite under there. We’ll see in time; there are still months remaining to do so.
Now, regarding David Sirlin, he put his time and effort into rebalancing the game. It’s like a child to him of sorts, and the rebalance was his own idea without Backbone’s initial support. Naturally, you want to see your own products grow so it makes sense he still has pride for and defends HDR. Alongside CCC2, I admire his intentions to promote SF2 even though I’m not overjoyed at the result (which hasn’t entirely been in his control).
Like I’ve said, you can praise Sirlin to make him feel good but what seems to me more effective than that would be to show up to tourneys for his game. What better way for HDR fans to support him than to give his creation a future? Also, it’s too bad someone hasn’t conducted a full written interview about him as an SF2 game player and designer since he left Backbone. It would be an interesting read if done right.
And on the different point of game balance, HDR matchups do appear to be more compressed on paper but I’d be curious to see what JP Blanka, Fei Long, Cammy, and Hawk masters think about the changes to their characters. Of course, they would have to fare even or better at HDR than players using those same characters here in the US for their opinions to hold water, which I’d feel good about after some practice.
SF4 tourneys are starting to feature guest players; is there any way to convince a low tier character user from Japan to come over, at least to Evo? Maybe if we fund them with guaranteed money matches?
I think everyone gets that. But is ST that imbalance to warrant a change? And is that really more fun? I asked the question because, sadly, fei’s lk CW is so good, that people would just get into the range of lk CW and use that, instead of utilizing all 3 strengths CW’s.
You’re a very strong player, but you playing fei in HDR make people respect you less because of the changes (QCF, more invulnerability) than if you are playing fei in ST.
And now people start discounting Snake Eyez’s achievement because the 360 is easier to perform and less risk (no accidental jump if you use HCB+F).
I’m not saying that ST is perfect and there is no room to improve. Just that HDR got something better, but then something got worst. Some match up are more balance. But some moves become brain dead (excuse my lack of other words to describe this) to spam
You never really answer / express your personal opinions regarding other HDR engine changes’ side effect. (I assume you read all these posts so I won’t repeat here).
Nope. Not at all. But ST’s imbalance is not as outrageous as 3s or MVC2. All 16 characters + Old characters can compete.
Are you saying that if HDR doesn’t come along, ST would remain an imbalance game that everyone wishes ST would be MORE BALANCED?
[check my previous post regarding all characters having the same strenght]
I’m not trolling and I’m not talking down to anyone. I wish you can actually answer those. Are you really fine with all those issues in HDR that do not exist in ST?
“You’re a very strong player, but you playing fei in HDR make people respect you less because of the changes (QCF, more invulnerability) than if you are playing fei in ST.”
That’s ridiculous. You’re saying people would “respect me” more if I played a weaker character. Whether or not that is true, it does not follow that we want a character weaker intentionally. The game is better, and more fun with the new, stronger Fei Long.
Your next question, I do not really understand. If HD Remix never happened, then ST would remain ST of course, by definition. The good balance in ST would remain and the iffy parts would also remain (obviously). Would people wish it could be balanced a little more? Sure, why would they not? And whatever they do or don’t wish for, it would be very fortunate if it somehow did become more balanced. Imagine Starcraft 1.0. If Blizzard never updated, would it remain how it was? (Yes, by definition.) Would people have wished for closer matches with improved balance? Who knows, but luckily they got it, because Starcraft 1’s updates really helped.
Next you ask if I’m fine with “all those issues” but I don’t know what you’re referring to. I’m fine with the game being more balanced and more fun, yes, if that’s what you mean. Vega not doing wall dive loop (yes, I know what a “loop” is, that’s just slang here) is great. Vega has lots of other things to do. T.hawk not being able to do a literally 100% inescapable sequence vs. say, Guile in the corner…but instead having an easier to perform SPD and a safe dive you can do a lot, yes I’m fine with that and think it is fun. Cammy, Blanka, Fei Long are all fun and stronger. Sagat is waaaay more interesting and his existence now adds to the game where o.sagat kind of subtracts from the game.
Whatever issues you are referring to, there probably are some, sure. ST has issues too. All games have some issues, so it’s a question of the whole thing together. Yeah as a whole I think extra gameplay from getting rid of o.sagat, wall dive knocdown, and the more options (and fun options) of the previous low tier are great.
Your chart seems to be trying to argue that you want imbalances on purpose. Perhaps if you were in charge of Starcraft 2, you’d release a patch that makes things more unfair? That sounds like trolling or a joke because it’s so absurd, but really and truly it does sound like that is consistent with what you’re saying. If Blizzard had Zerg vs. Protoss too even, they should really make it more fun by turning it into a 7-3 matchup, perhaps?
Mr Wiz has said that Evo is a console-only tournament.
Do you think that money is the only reason that people are invested in things? You should be upset if he DIDN’T have a sense of creative integrity and feel an attachment to what he’s created.