I miss every link and meaty on the PS3 for some reason. And I’m 95% certain that reason is additional input lag that is not present in the 360 port.
I use Sim. What’s my excuse for preferring HDR?
As far as arcades or superguns go. A couple thoughts:
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I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you think Evo will run arcade cabs or superguns as an official event. It’s fine to be optimistic, but before anyone gets too excited I think people need to think through the realities a bit.
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Along similar lines, I don’t see CRTs making a comeback at anything as large as Evo. I just don’t…
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Regardless of other circumstances, it doesn’t surprise me that some sticks/sides were better than others at SBR. In my experience, every arcade tournament I’ve ever been to suffers from that. I don’t get why, but it seems pretty consistent.
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I realize that the variety of Happ, Sanwa, and Seimitsu? controllers at SBR was just a side effect of people working together to bring whatever cabs they could in. But it does highlight a problem. I doubt I could go between all those sticks and play to a level I’d be comfortable with. In theory, if a big all arcade/supergun tournament were to take place I think a standard would have to be decided on. Personally, since the advent of the TE sticks, I just assume everyone plays on JLF’s these days regardless of what Japan does or what we did back in the arcades in the 90’s.
I know you were there, JV, you saw the CRTs they were using there. You couldn’t have missed them running TVC on them up on the mainstage either.
I don’t know if they’ll get rid of those in the future… but I think the issue is more realistically going to be “We’re not gonna run superguns ever again.” Which is definitely something I feel is the more realistic of the outcomes regarding convincing evolution.
I’m gonna throw out some flamebait and say that I think the best middle ground would be to play AE limiting to ST charcters. As we know, HDR players are quite happy to play ST, but ST players aren’t willing to play HDR so ST would be the favourable option. Limiting to ST characters isn’t a huge problem for ST players because only a few of the old characters are any good anyway, and it means no nasty surprises for the remix players that have never practiced matchups Vs other versions (plus IIRC you cannot soften throws by an old character in AE). Then it’s on console. Consoles are easier to come by than arcade hardware, plus most people have a console ready stick of some sort, or can just borrow one.
The only thing I can’t comment on is version differences in AE vs ST or HDR. Is there anything detrimental to the game why AE isn’t used anymore anyway like input lag or whatever?
Input lag should not affect straight links unless they’re hit confirms.
Evo used CRTs for at least Melty Blood, TVC finals, and MVC2 finals (since that’s what the top players all preferred). Unless they’ve gotten rid of them already, Evo had plenty of them (10+) available for BYOC as well.
Anyway, NKI believes there’s input lag on both versions. I only mention PS3 HDR because that’s what I tried right after getting back from Japan and it was shocking how much it felt like mush once you get used to arcade ST timing. Given NKI’s record on input lag and since he mainly plays at arcade speed, I’m inclined to trust him that HDR lags in general. While PS3 is undoubtedly the worst, I also think 360 has lag because I have to time my link differently than what I see on arcade. It’s unfortunate nobody has still gotten around to scientific input lag tests though, esp. when many have tested SF4 already.
I’ve mentioned this before but for anyone who wants to feel the perceived lag themselves and have access to all 3 versions and 1.5 hours of time, try claw’s j.HP,c.MK,c.MP for 30 minutes on each version starting from CPS2 to 360 to PS3. You’ll quickly get used to the timing from c.MK to c.MP by watching when claw’s leg retracts. As you start each new version, you’ll find that you have to readjust your timing based on what you see on-screen. On CPS2, you have to wait until the leg fully retracts whereas on PS3, you have to do it just as the leg is starting to retract. It’s immediately noticeable to the eye even if you factor in the speed difference from arcade ST to HDR and esp. since I’ve tested both versions of HDR to run at the exact same speed.
4 extra frames of input lag is the reason we universally got rid of CCC2 and went back to the DC version of ST. Sure, HDR is its own game but can you really accept that lag compared to other versions of SF2?
Now, regarding AE, CPS2 and US PS2 AE have the problems we all know with low tigers and wall dives. The home ports have reasonably nonexistent input lag at only 0-1 frame according to NKI. But IINM, even the Capkore version still has no way of teching ST old character throws. You could say that’s reasonable but it only makes o.Sagat and o.Ken even more dominant and throw-happy (essentially fireball characters and lite-grapplers in one). And you can’t just take out old characters because that’s one of the mainstays of ST. Beyond that, the timing is off where T2 is too slow while T3 is too fast compared to ST. And then you have a general disinclination to not separate AE up is because it feels wrong making rules for a Frankenstein version of that game to imitate a preferable game. The effort getting JP PS2s and JP copies of AE isn’t trivial and probably isn’t worth it when both ST and HDR players don’t really want to play it.
As for issues on cabs in SB, I think it’s mostly an issue with unfamiliarity. Tougeki SBO this year had 5 New Net City setups on-stage for ST (10 cabs total) that were later used for other games (although some used other cabs like Vewlix for SF4) and it ran without a hitch. Cabs ideal for CPS2 ST but I’m concerned about their feasibility. Where would we get those cabs, boards, and converters? They’re actually easy to find and very few would be needed to run any ST major in the US but who would pay for enough to fill all the setups at Evo with ~300 entrants? These are tough questions, but maybe someone has already considered the answers.
At Season Beating’s the year before HDR was a main game and I believe 40 to 50 people entered (over 60 signed up, but a few couldn’t play for various reasons). It was $10 entry, used PS3’s.
I actually prefer ST Honda over HDR Honda (NE Ochio loop in corner, dizzy damage on Ochio, higher HHS damage, walk forward Super), but still prefer HDR overall as the better game for tournaments. I don’t see “character bias” playing a part in any of this (unless you play Chun, then I think you deserve your bias, LOL).
Edit: If EVO wants to run HDR/ST on 13’’ black and white T.V.'s I wouldn’t care, as long as the game stays. I’d be more than happy to play SF2 in less than ideal conditions rather than have to play SSF4 in perfect conditions.
The only weird thing is that if all these issues were accurate like you say, why are not more people complaining? Especially since these guys all paid a $50 entry fee. Why are tourney organizers moving towards arcade if its such an impossibility? You act like there will be inevitable problems on arcade cabs but its usually not the case, sbo quals in tn are a recent example of a tourney with 0 issues.
I’ve been in many tourneys for console and arcade, both have issues but I’ve seen more things go wrong on console. people not setting buttons correctly, taking a long time setting buttons, hitting start button, controllers coming unplugged, trophies/achievements popping up, and let’s not get into that hdr side select screen which confuses the hell out of people.
The scary thing for hdr supporters right now is the overall lack of care about tournaments. the tourneys switching to st, there is only little to no resistance from hdr guys in those threads, and after they are over you never see someone who was there post something like “I really wanted to enter hdr, but I couldn’t”
John, are CRT cab’s even being manufactured any more? They seem like they’re all from the 90’s or even 80’s. ST CPSII boards are themselves what, almost 20 years old? Won’t it become more and more difficult to source this stuff and keep it maintained.
At the tourney itself, there definitely were people complaining about the cabs. Why few of them mention it on the SRK forum, I can’t say for sure, but I’ll wager that the fact that the tourney itself was still a blast anyway has a lot to do with it. :wgrin:
I totally agree about the general apathy being the #1 problem though. People just don’t show up and it saddens me.
CRTs are on the way out in general. As my stepfather like to say, analog is now synonymous with obsolete.
If the only platform you will accept is CPSII ST on a CRT arcade cab, then eventually you’re going to need this (and sooner rather than later):
And if you understand the reference, I’m impressed.
first off, for future tournaments my personal choice would be LCD-compliant superguns like what vintage has been looking into.
yes, parts are getting old. but people on this website are supposed to make up the best of the sf2 community, we should all be able to appreciate old things and be old enough ourselves that we can maintain them.
i think everyone is over thinking this, going over the minutia in every possible problem that could happen. its a video game tournament. people bring setups and you play and have fun. this is more than possible, actually its been done a few times before. “whats best” is the most important, not whats handed to you, is easier or is most accesible. sometimes you have to fight for “what is best”. (for instance there is no reason the hdr community should have allowed ps3 at evo). the current wave on the national offline scene is super turbo, evo should follow that. if not hdr will basically become the game that is only played at evo and a few wc events.
How many LCD compatible superguns are out there? How many are there that support current generation console sticks (not PS2)? An Xbox or PS3 is relatively cheap in comparison to cabinets, CPSII boards, and supergun setups.
It just seems that the barrier to entry for HDR is relatively low but the barrier to entry for non-emulated ST is very high.
My $02:
I would so LOVE to see ST make a comeback for many reasons but one of the biggest reasons is that it’s the standard in Japan and because HDR is virtually non-existent there, not playing ST feels like playing in the minor leagues rather than the majors.
But this is not Japan and arcades are dead and access to HDR is so much more convenient and feasible for 90% of the population and from what I understand since Wizard said ‘it’s HDR or nothing’ and now there might be a good chance that HDR might be removed from EVO, I think ST players should just support HDR or even HDR classic mode (I know it’s not ST but for those who don’t like the HDR changes, it’s a good ST alternative) for EVO and focus their efforts on having ST as a side tournament at EVO (I know I’d still enter) and focus on ST being held at other tournaments that will be open to having it (such as SB:R).
Me, personally, I just haven’t had the time to go to many tournaments for a while now but if tournaments start dropping HDR, I wouldn’t have any more reasons to go to them in the future as a participant, since I just don’t have time to dedicate to really learn SSFIV right now.
this is somethin a few of us are looking into, it looks like all existing superguns can be upgraded to work with lcd’s, many people actually bring ps2 sticks to evo already and use a ps2/ps3 converter
every point you made is 100% true, geo
but what we are looking at here is what offline players in competition want to compete in, based on recent results the push is for super turbo. even with how much easier it is to play hdr- offline scene in most areas are bigger for st, tournaments are switching to st because of players requests, ggpo still has a ton of people on it, also there are several of these type threads on the biggest sf website, and this is after 2 years of very accesible hdr. it hasnt been accepted and its only getting worse
just like sbr shows us, new players arent afraid to overcome the barrier and are killing some old timers. some of these new players have used hdr as a gateway into the sf2 scene, which is what i believe the main purpose of that game should become.
I am amused by this thread to no end.
It seems regardless of how many times it is stated ST proponents have some kind of mental block that makes them read the sentence:
HDR or no SF2 at EVO.
As.
Cthulhu fhtagn
Heh…you guys underestimate my apathy for TvC, MvC2, and Melty Blood. Actually, I kinda wanted to check out MB but I think we went to eat or practice or something when it was running. I honestly didn’t realize that they used CRTs for those games. And I’m really surprised that they used them for MvC. That was run on PS3 this year, right? I could’ve sworn I saw it in widescreen during pools or something. Maybe that was Devastation?
Anyway, I guess I take back the point about CRTs. But I can’t imagine that’ll last for too much longer. I mean really, who wants to lug those heavy ass things around anymore?
I do treat it as a new game. And *if *there’s any lag then ya, I can accept it. It’s hard to tell if there is because of the slightly different speed, new graphics, etc. but there’s no way it’s as bad as CCC2 was. Playing the PS3 version is the real crime IMO. If any change should be made it should be a push to move to XBox for all HDR tournaments.
Agreed with everything you wrote about AE.
I don’t get it. I mean, JLF’s are like what, $20? In theory, it’d seem like for a big tournament having brand new sticks and buttons wouldn’t be that hard to do. But the reality is that most arcade tourneys I’ve been too, both back in the day and more recently, usually have some kind of stick/button/screen/board problems. It *shouldn’t *be that hard to do it up right, but experience has shown me otherwise.
What national offline scene? SBR and a couple ec events? I respect you fighting for the version you prefer, but I think you’re trivializing the number of HDR events.
Also, you say Evo should follow, but do you really believe Evo will run arcade/supergun for a main game? I’m a bit concerned that if we can’t be pragmatic about things that we’ll lose SF2 as a main game at Evo. To me, that’d suck.
I advise everyone planning to go to EVO not to respond to trolls who have no intention going to EVO. They just take cheap shots here with no stake at risk.
People that are discussing the possibilities here invest their own time, money and effort organizing/going to tournament and try to make something happen.
Like Daigo said, the biggest difference between JP / US tournaments is that JP tourney are run by organizations that players have no say in what is supported, while US tourney are organized by the players themselves and players make everything happened.
It is possible for ST be a official tournament @ EVO while having the equipments supplied by players, brackets run by the players and recruitment done by the players.
All the Nae sayers here do nothing and have nothing to risk.
I believe all ST players that actually reply in this thread, are supporter of HDR/HD Classic @ EVO if that’s the only option.
If you want to repel these people away from HDR / HD classic, you will just drive them to join watson/shirts/dreamtr/roybisel and will not bother to enter HDR @ EVO (if it ends up being HDR again).
Reality check for HDR fans : there is only one top HDR-ONLY players, Snake eyes , (maybe 2-3 up and coming), (out of 300+!) and please correct me if I’m wrong.
And if snake eyes can work a stick, he can play ST no problem, while you have guys like damdai, john rambo and ganelon that spent a lot of time with HDR, going to HDR tourney and now prefer ST.
And for previous EVO ST tourney with what you called low turnout, there are easily 10+ ST-only (there was no HDR) killers every time.
Look at this list of monsters that you’ll never be able to attract to compete @ EVO HDR
GigaMsx
Sabin
Dream TR
RoyBisel
NH2
Shirts
DSP
wolfe brothers
Mike Watson
Cigarbob
Apoc
ProfessorJones
and this list that play their top game with ST verse just play casually with HDR
Daigo
Alex Valle
Tokido
NKI
Jason Cole
John Rambo
Damdai
Kuroppi
John Choi
Ganelon
James Chen
Kuni
and you have a few guys that play maybe equally good with ST & HDR
Afro Legend
DGV
Mars
BTC
To all people going to EVO for some SF2 action, do you prefer the possible roster of that 30 monsters playing their top game or just 4-5 guys that can play top HDR games with 10 strong players that play casually?
If you are not going, please don’t answer that questions, we are not interested.
Luckily i am sure most people are not interested in your baseless speculations either.
Nor your talking down to people that are appearing at and winning tournaments.
I especially liked your exclusion of Snake Eyez from your list of good players.
Well along with all the other people playing.