Why we don't play new games? - GGXX is the new SF2

I, being a person who doesn’t especially like GG (It’s not like I’m “DOWN WITH GG BLARG” or anything, I’m just not a fan), have to agree with the whole “too execution heavy” argument. I know that, yes, once you learn the system and all, it’s an incredibly balanced game, and yes, I’m aware that there are hundreds of people with the thousands of hours of free time required to learn the tricks of the trade. But, let’s take… King of Fighters XI. There are some powerful characters in that, and there are some LOL BAD characters in that, but on the whole, it’s a very balanced game.

In the space of a few hours at an arcade playing KOF XI, I can learn quickshifting, saving shifts, supercancels, dreamcancels, E counters, AB counters, and the like. Now that I’ve learned the system, I can develop my character strategies, and once I’m comfortable with a team or two, I can start learning matchup strategies. This is the basic process of learning how to play a fighting game. System–>using your characters–>matchups.

With GG, however, I need to learn Roman Cancels, False Roman Cancels, Faultless Defense, gatling chains, Instant Blocking, Dead Angle Attacks, and the myriad basic options (double jump, air dash, etc.). Of any of these, learning the knowledge and application of them is as difficult as learning the entire system of KOF XI. Then we move on to learning your character: frame data, b’n’b’s (which usually take hours of practice, depending on your character), using FRC’s, etc. Then matchups: …need I say anything?

So the way I see it, I could spend many, many hours to learn GG, and the reward would be being able to play a very balanced fighter. On the flip side, I could spend a few hours learning to play KOF XI, and while the game might not be as balanced as GG, it is certainly a very good game.

I completely agree with this

That’s all pretty true.

I picked up GGXXAC when it came out and put in enough time to learn the game and be competitive with the locals and even to my surprise with a small amount of success at C3 tournements.

GG has this insane frustration element for me. The more I play the game, I feel like that element should start to disappear, but it’s not.

Too often I just ‘don’t get why’ something happens, or doesn’t happen etc. The explaination I get from other players always boils down to ‘That’s just Baiken, or That’s just Slayer, or That’s just _______’

I realize I’m new to the game and that part of not knowing is inexperience…all the same, I see other more experience players falling for/loosing to the same stuff as me.

So, if players who are aware of these traps and specific character conditions still fall prey to them, isn’t the answer to always just ensure that your “Broken” gameplan gets implemented before your opponents?

That’s just my frustration with the game. I’m not hating. I like the idea, the overall gameplay and the characters. I just wish I didn’t have to know every fucking detail of the game and every character match up in order to play another style aside from rushdown.

What you have mentioned are pretty basic options available in almost all fighting games. Unless you character calls for it, you rarely use RCs and generally use it to save yourself if you stick out an unsafe move.

As I stated some times before, each character generally has 1 or 2 FRCs that you probably need to know. Sometimes, none. (aka Slayer) It all depends who you want to play. Because I won’t lie, playing I-no or Bridget requires a lot of time and dedication for example.

FDing is most basic form of defense. You use it to not take block damage and it causes some push-back during some guardstrings. It causes greater blockstun, IIRC and when you use it is up to you.

Gatling chains are pretty simple to pickup. With 1 minute of practice you can figure out the chains easily. For example: K S HS D Bandit Revolver or K S HS c.HS Icespike. For Sol and Dizzy, respectively.

IBing doesn’t work like JD, but the concept of performing it is the same. It’s your choice when to use it.

Dead Angle uses 50% tension to simply perform something similar to an Alpha Counter. Stops guarstrings without using Burst.

Double jump and dash is used for many things: mixup, zoning, spacing, retreating, everything. It’s all how you want to use it.

Simply put, if you actually wanted to learn the game, you’d learn it. It’s not as difficult as I always seen people making it out to be. Just some practice and no not 1034435854 hours in training mode.

You’re asking the wrong people. Next time ask me.

Except I won’t be at this upcoming C3 tournament. You’ll have to wait till November.

i actually don’t think execution is what makes gg harder on various levels than most capcom games (although execution is definitely up there). it’s the wide range of match-ups you need to learn with and against each character.

but that is actually what makes the game more fun, exciting and deep imo.

i know it’s a tough concept to grasp unless you play gg competitively, but i know everybody who plays gg and other games competitively can vouche for this.

I say SNK did OK cause they did eventually go bankrupt, despite their early success. Even then it was still all about SF2.

I touch on this later, but for now i will say i am not comparing SF2 and GGXX gameplay wise

Sorry i meant to say VF1. Its a pretty horrible fighter compared to todays standards, but at the time people went crazy for it, cause it offered something new and unseen before.

I think you didn’t read the whole article.

“Previous innovative games that came before GGXX with solid gameplay are alright, they made their mark already, so they don’t need to worry about GGXX, they will always be remembered…” and i shuda said played here too.

These games would include your 3s, MVC2, CVS2, etc. Nothing wrong with playing them at all. My article is about games since GGXX’s release, and how nothing has really come to challenge it.

I think you misunderstand. I’m not saying GGXX is like SF2, I’m saying it the new SF2. Its the standard fighting game at which other new fighting games are compared to and based from.

============

On the whole i think alot of people who have replied so far are making some excellent points, but somewhere along the line i think some of you got confused on the purpose/meaning of this article.

I am in no way saying people should be playing GGXX over other games, nor am i saying people should be playing other new games. I am merely commenting on the current state of new 2D fighters, not games which came before it. They are a totally seperate issue altogether.

What I am saying is that GGXX has become the big new kiddy on the block, its doesn’t matter that other previous fighters have bigger scenes and more people playing it. What does matter is that this is the latest series to really establish a certain amount of dominance in 2D fighting games. And since its been around, no new 2D fighting game has really reached its or any kind of major success. And because of its success other new 2D fighters have tried to grab at their own piece, basing their games around the foundations that make GGXX so successful, just like other companies did back when SF2 was around. Thats where i draw my comparison from. I hope that clears things up.

It’s as Orka says. It’s not the execution that’s hard in GG; along with all the drastically different match-ups (due to characters being UNIQUE, omg that seems like a crime now doesn’t it? :rolleyes: ) it’s the mind games that you have to put up with. In GG, there is ALOT to think about, it’s your overall gameplan and how to handle your characters and situations. Combos are the EASY part. Now to paraphrase Chunkis (Lord I have sinned!) who went to Japan and played GG, he said that there are many players in Japan who can do all the most advanced combos and everything, but they have no gameplan so they just fall short of every match and can be taken out with ease. And believe me, if Chunkis is beating you at GG there is something wrong with you (lol, I’ve been there lmao).

Plus, GG execution isn’t too hard or anything. If the next guy can do it, why can’t you? No, he/she doesn’t have more time on their hands, he/she actually puts effort into practice.

And damn, what’s with all this moaning about execution anyway? Whatever happened to being ‘hardcore’? Or are we all a bunch of pansies that can’t even take on ‘A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF INPUTS!!!??’ (props to Purify for that line btw :rofl: ).

yea, exactly.

but the problem is that you really can’t start learning strats and match-ups to the fullest unless you learn a good bulk combos and get the execution down first. and since execution is actually the part that intimidates most beginners, i think a lot of people just end up giving up guilty gear without understanding the deeper essence of the game (what makes it fun and replay-worthy).

also, some of the characters that are considered “difficult” in the execution aspect have really simple strategies… like slayer and johnny.

meanwhile, there are some characters that can go to brain-numbing depth at high levels like venom, dizzy and bridget.

What does OG mean?

I always wanted to play a Guilty Gear game I’ve heard that it’s really fast, and I like fast games so I think I should like it.

Original Generation.

SF pratically invented and made famous the 1vs1 fighting game and its gameplay “inspired” all the others fighting games that were released after him. Then GG came with its revolutionary gameplay made of button smashing long air combo followed by its own number of clones.
So we can say that GG is “a” new SF cause it started and made famous a new type of gameplay. In few words they’re both seminal.
This doesn’t mean that SF is suddenly become old or obsolete but only that GG started a new genre. Personally I still prefer the SF like gameplay but I also play GG & HNK.
Without the shadow of a doubt GG has brought some fresh air in the world of the fighting games, helping them to survive in this period where everybody seems to be more interested about the number of poligons on the screen than anything alse. So as a 2d fighting lover i think I owe something to GG and arc sys.

I respect any and all games because there are people dedicated to their cause. Just look at our AHF scene in NYC. It consists of like, 7 hardcore players(me, Art, and 6 others) and the game has good mechanics in it. Everyone dismisses it just because it has loli characters in it without even looking at how the game is played.

But of course, I forget this is SRK, so I expect you to be as retarded as the next dude I’m quoting.

GG is the new standard for fighting games. Deal with it. And second of all, it’s great to still enjoy the old stuff, but EVERYONE should always learn the new games.

The games are good, but people are too stupid to look beyond the company developing it and the way the game looks. I don’t play GG hardcore(yet), but it’s still a fun series because there is so much shit to learn in the game. I like something that keeps me coming back for more and I always love discovering new shit. We’ve already taken CvS2 and Marvel to it’s full potential. There is nothing else to learn.

But yeah, you still suck at Marvel.

This is the best quote in this thread and I probably will keep requoting it for every dumb post I see in this thread.

And to quote Shin Chuji: This thread is retarded. I’m not dissing R3ko. It’s good stuff that he wrote, but these threads never work out because people are just too closed minded.

Oh, and one more quote from Art: “Niggas is afraid to lose.”

And that’s the most realest of talk.

That was me, not pozerwolf lol. OG is original gangster.

If people don’t play GG, cool. I don’t play CvS2 or Marvel. So…yeah. The only way I see it as anything like SF2 is how it got its revisions and…that’s about it.

Damn sorry! :sad: (I edited now lol)

@Orka, yeah I agree. Too many people get intimidated before they can even properly start; and it’s why I question whether most of those people are even ‘hardcore’.

there will never be a new sf2, unless they come up with virtual reality fighting or stuff like that. this is why:
when sf2 was released it was not overshadowed by games like halo, cs or wow. it was something revolutionary. it was widely accepted and everyone at that time was play sf2. you know sf 2 was what WoW is today. i cant think of one person that doesnt know street fighter. you know, sf2 got it started and i think it will always have a special place in our hearts. it was a game of a whole generation.
today is the time of fps, rts and similar games. most players dont even know what guilty gear is. 2d fighting is dead…sad but true. no other 2d fighter will be as famous as sf2 is and was. just think of that jackie chan movie feat. sf2 or sf the movie. it shows how popular and influential sf2 was.

I think it is fair to say that GG/doujin games are the major influences on new fighters coming out. As far as why people don’t seem to play it here is a multi part problem. First there is not enough comp, AC is not online right now and there are no more arcades besides a few in CA and NY. I personally think the real issue is that most of the serious sf players are not so young anymore:wgrin: Most of us are working full time jobs have kids or are married and do not have the time required to master a new game which is as deep as gg in our spare time. It is however much easier to play older games that we already know inside and out.

Well, coming from the perspective of someone who went from casual SFA3 to competitive Smash and is now trying to learn GGXX^C, I can tell you a few things:

  1. As much as I respect old-school fighting games, I have to say that I just don’t enjoy old-school fighters (barring limited SFA3). It just feels like the engine itself is slow, stilted, and boring; I don’t want to spend half a match playing random footsies and falling into fireball -> shoryuken deathtraps a la SFII Turbo.

  2. I spend time with Smash, GGXX, and SFA3, and I can tell you right now that I don’t understand the random hate that they get. As combo-based, execution-heavy, and unconventional the both of them are, the age-old concept of ranging/poking, forcing the opponent into disadvantageous situations, and basic mindgaming is still there. These games aren’t THAT different from your standard old-school fighter. They’re just faster-paced and look cooler with lots of combos.

  3. I don’t know about the other morons out there (mostly who play Smash and refuse to play anything else), but I think that keeping an open mind is important. Game diversity, if nothing else, helps increase your adaptability and mindgame potential, which is why I branched out from Smash into GGXX, and hopefully into hardcore SFA3 when I get the chance. Because of this, I don’t understand why people would randomly write off/hate on games. . .if nothing else, they should play different games just to help them expand their experience.

I can tell you that not quite everyone in the scene thinks of Alpha 3 as an “old-school” fighter.
Many of the REALLY old-school players believe old school died after Alpha 2 was replaced with Alpha 3.

i have to agree, everything after st or fatal fury special ist new age :rofl: