Why Jin sucks in Mvc2 (a article)

Yea i was thinking of putting silsam in there, i forgot he can’t be thrown while crouch blocking (wtf)

Yea i was thinking of putting him in middle tier but i guess i might as well put him in top middle since he does have potential, just like ice man can be seen to be in middle tier or rogue can be seen to be in low 2nd tier.

i’d say rogue has a chance to make it to very low second tier maybe… and ice man can go a tier below that.

I wanted to finish my tier list later but here is all i really know about sil sam:

Silver Samurai (Top Middle or Middle Tier) - He can punish assists, he has a good projectile. A really neat trick if you’re close enough is instant overhead j. rh + cable anti air assist land raimeken. It’s fairly reliable IMO just time it correctly, and yea you can use it with a variety of assists like cyclops b you can even air combo off of cyclops b. His best air combo is magic series into shuriken, it usually does around 50 damage.

He has alot of tools and his normals are great pokes, iirc c. lp actually hits low…

yea

he’s a weird but strong character i say he is top middle tier and i think i remember hearing that if you mash enough raimeken NEVER ends. That is pretty broken of course i heard that a guy once messsed up his hand mashing it…

Anyways here’s my Middle Tier:

Middle Tier: (some of these characters are pretty good and can even be considered in the “Top Middle Tier” just as some of the characters in the Top Middle Tier can be put in here IMO.)

Gambit: Kinetic Card xxx Kick Super rocks i THINK it can punish assists rather well and actually reminds me of hail in some aspects. I think he can throw one air card relatively safely and i remember hearing his lp card is ahvb safe. He’s a good character and you should always abuse his lp cajun strike, loads of priority and GREAT range. The AC i always use is usually j. lp, j. mp . hp since they are launched so high up. His assist is good aswell since it causes dead weight + it has alot of hit stun on it, basically anyone hit by this can be comboed with ease. Royal Flush is highly dhc abuseable.

Marrow:

Great zoning projectile , cuts off a portion of the screen for a lenghty period of time. Takes damage rather badly iirc. Great dash, great normals can combo into qcf + pp super and her missle super. I hear that her missle super projectiles can not be negated. Her missle super is really good, it seems great for punishing assists since it does alot of damage and has little start up and recovery. She has mobility in her double jump and fast dash. she’s definitely good with her safe chip and excellent lock down/rush down.

Amingo:

I think he has one of the best normal move sets in the game. His snap back is retarded. His c. lk c. mk launcher range is ridiculous. He has a ghetto air dash in his air onion dashes and his moves have great priority. His cactus helpers are only decent and i really doubt anyone can even get them out without making someone block doom B or something. He has a extended air combo IIRC although i dont’ know what it is. He has 2 useful supers and again HUGE NORMALS. His j. hk is retarded. No one uses him cuz he is ridiculous but he is good i’ve seen a player that i can’t recall use him rather well in preppy’s vids if i’m not mistaken.

Shuma Gorath:

He has the only 2 frame d. lk in the game no one else has a faster one or one that is just as fast except magneto. He also has a 1 frame standing lp that is useful when he faces magneto.
His level 3 does the least damage out of any level 3 in the game but it can grab you out of hit stun or block stun or even when your’e not in stun. You can do some stupid shit like cross over them + call doom, stone drop (d + hk) activate chaos dimension, grab them. His kick throw is great and his command throw does really good damage and has various ticks on landing it. His eye ball special does good chip damage aswell and when they connect you can dhc out and it will make them eat the incoming super. He has good normals aswell and his j. hp can be aimed which makes it a good attack against storm’s run away hp’s most likely since you can aim it up. His Ball assist (expansion?) does alot of chip damage and if used correctly isn’t bad because it produces a nice ammount of block stun. A overall good character.

Hayato:

Great Pokes, his standing lp has good range and his plasma strings are decent bnbs. His lp shiden seems to be pretty safe and is good to get back in when you’ve been push blocked. I like doing bnbs where it ends in lp shiden xxxx qcf + kicks super. His launcher has huge range and can be comboed from c. lk, c. mk and you can do a air combo like : launch, magic series, lp shiden 1 hit(?) xxx energy ball super. He has a good command throw aswell (b , f + PP) that can be comboed off of. He is meant to poke and it shows in how his moves all connect in max range.is level 3 is useful especially since it can be used for free after a level 1 ball super. The fact that you can combo it off a juggle makes it even better but you have to have fast hands , you can even connect it off of a command grab if you otg/juggle them.
He has alot of tools and is a good character but he lacks any real chipping game from what i’ve seen although he doesn’t really need one.

Morrigan - You may put her in top middle tier. She has alot of tools in her various specials and supers. she has a air dash aswell which means she has a good high low game although getting damage with her off a connected attack is pretty hard. Justin Wong uses her in his screw around teams for great effect he also uses a infinite that works on Doom (maybe even other characters besides doom) and she has alot of great moves. Her HP Throw is decent in setting up wake up games in the same sense that ryu’s is however she has much better options on wake up than ryu does thanks to her air dash, i’d suggest something like calling a assist and maybe going for a tri jump but watch out for aaa’s. I haven’t really played her enough to tell you much else. I’d go with AA as her assist.

BB Hood

Cruel Hunting is pretty dope. I do c. lk, c. mk, foward + HP xxxx Cruel Hunting (qcf + PP) for 80 damage (only 10 less than colossus) you can omitt the foward + HP but you get less damage and foward hp is more hit confirmable. Land Mines (Hk and df+ HK) are said to kill rush down. You can cancel out of the normals that produce mines and get mines out for free for some extra coverage. She also has a command cross up (Covert Dodge?) which is d, d KK if close enough to your opponent you’ll cross them up which is decent for assist cross ups i guess. Her cocktails are really chippy but are probably suceptible to push block and i think they can only be cancelled out of early. The basket PROBABLY has good priority but i can’t say. She has a double jump, decent wave dash, and her attacks are all fast. She also has a sonic boom like projectile. . She can vary the angles they come out in and i believe zaza is known for using it very well.
Her AAA assist is good but i’d go with projectile assist since it causes dead weight and is like a mini sent G :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ll write up the rest of the middle tier later.

it’s late…

yep you right it does suck, you just can’t use his DHC’s like that. So it’s real good to have Doom behind him when you do it. But I do believe I see good players get out of magneto’s Shockwave glitch too pretty easily. Well peepz with air dash anyway I think.

Rogue is definately upper second tier.

I think the best Jin team is Blackheart aa/Jin expan/Sent Drones. This guy at my arcade used it/still does and is pretty good with it. But expansion assist sucks imo, due to not having any range. Perhaps it would have been better if it was hp typhoon, but it still has to be covered if it whiffs(just like any other assist though). His aa is good but it doesn’t really set up any combos for the point character, since it’s more just like a “get the fuck off me”, assist.

I don’t know, he as a character vs top tiers is just as bad as picking spiderman or hayato. But in the right hands, he can pose a threat, or maybe people just lose to him at times, just because they underestimate him. :karate:

BTW

I consider juggernaut with his glitch in 2nd Tier along with cyke and bh and spiral/doom.

Interesting thing i found, that there is ONE person that can throw a crouch blocking silver samurai.

Zangief, even with his normal throws.

But he can’t air to ground spd him =/.

Here is the rest of the average middle tier:

Chun-Li

I know what you’re thinking, “Chun Li Sucks”, she doesn’t suck. Chun li is actually pretty good, and Preppy is pretty good with her overall. However i think he neglects two important things:

Meter Building , and her Instant Overhead.

Her stomp is a broken , BROKEN , BROKEN!!! normal, it’s one of the most broken normals in the game right behind mag’s c. lk.

Stomp (j. D+HK)

  • The only one frame heavy attack in the game

  • Recovers extremely fast, whiff them in a similar fashion of cyclops j. rh except she builds meter so much faster and safer IMO.

  • It’s downward angle makes it a deadly instant overhead, and since it’s so fast it’s impossible to block on reaction no matter how good your reactions are. Basically do something like instant overhead stomp + call cyclops b air combo afterwards or do her anti air super (dp + KK).

  • Whenever you hit it, even in super jump mode you go into normal jump mode. But after you hit it you can also call assists for as long as you are in the air, as many times as you want.

Her throw is great aswell, she throws them so they bounce giving you more time to get in and she recovers fast, that combined with her mobility she has plenty of time to get in the opponent’s face and either do square jump or instant overhead mix ups. She has what has to be the most mobility in the entire game, she has 3 jumps, a square jump and a wall jump (which resets the jump count). Her anti air super also has one of the longest dhc windows in mvc2, iirc the whole time she’s recovering for it you can dhc which means you can dhc into sent for alot of damage. She has 2 frame attacks in her lp’s and has 3 frame lk’s iirc. I think her standing lk has alot of range like cyclop’s and is complimented by her c. mk’s range. She has mix ups and mobilty but her damage output is overall small. Her best air combo seems to be lauch, magic series, HP, STOMP , and you can call assists and jump around in the air to try to mix them up afterwards. Her best assist is either her anti air or her Gamma assist (one of the only 2 overhead assists in the game) you can set up nasty unblockables with it. Try this with sent+ chun gamma, dash in c. rh + Chun Gamma vary when you cancel into rocket punch… Good luck blocking that shit.

Sakura:

I haven’t played with her enough to say too much but i’ll say this she seems decent. She has a good AC, i got it from white shadow, launch, magic series, lk hurricane, link into lp xxx shouken for around 60 damage. She also seems to have the hurricane kick glitch and she has a good variety of moves. Her Dash assist is pretty good and goes through alot of projectiles. I remember hearing something about doing a shouken xxx into her upward hurricane super to counter stuff like AHVB and Hail. Dark Sakura is also a decent character but in most people’s opinion not worth using, of course if you’re winning and you’re execution is good you can transform and do her asura warp indefinitely to win by time over or just to build meter i would guess.

Jill

She has good normals and can combo into 2 of her supers both of which have good overall utility. She can also utilize Slide into HK (unblockable) zombie for nasty wake up games and if they decide not to roll you can launch them into Dash Super. Alot of people say her moves have alot of synergy to them. She has a good special move set and can fill the screen with crap easily. Her wave dash is decent too. Her assists suck, if i had to pick one i’d pick her dash assist it’s not that bad at all.

M. Bison

He has alot of great tools. Viscant is said to have played him really well. A decent strategy is HP exploding ball (hcb + p) and when they attack you push block them into the exploding ball. His best AC is lauch, magic series, scissors xxx psycho crusher which does upwards of 80 damage. His normals are good and his specials are very useful. He also has 3 very useful supers each with their own utility. He is said to build meter rather well. His best assist is said to be Variable type (the exploding ball).

Strider:

He’s still a decent character without doom, i’d guess assist + teleport mix ups might be pretty good. I really haven’t played him enough to say much but despite the damage he takes i think he’s pretty good and his wide variety of useful specials and supers are nice. His assists all blow but variety and projectile are better options than the first, his best air combo is iirc launch, magic series, qcb + lp. He has alot of speed, and alot of tools which allow him to stay on you rather well (teleport) it’s just that he takes damage like a bitch… you might knock him down to the next tier.

Here is The Low Middle Tier:

Again you might place them a tier up or down, but this is just from what I’ve seen.

Ken:

Widely considered the best overall shoto in the game and i guess i agree since akuma does give him a run for his money but his vitality puts him a little bit behind him. He takes good damage and has a high damage output although his range is puny. He has a command cross up (qcb + p)that’s hard to utilize but useful (One of the best ways to use it is c. lk, c. mk + sent a call, command cross up) You can even use it as a fake out since the lp version goes a shorter distance than the hp version so sometimes you can vary them and mix up between crossing them up and not crossing them up. It’s hard to utilize because with like alot of special moves in mvc2 it seems not to consider the opponent “crossed up” until their sprite turns around this also applies to hurricane kicks, you cannot hit them with a cross up hurricane kick until their sprite turns around. He has good bnbs and he has the hurricane kick glitch. He has alot of moves and long range overhead which is semi useful. Alot of players use jumping hp xxx hurricane to get around. Finally i should mention he has a decent cross up in his j. U+HK it has alot of range but in mvc2 i wouldn’t rely on sf2 style crossups.

Lastly, you cannot really count out his sheer invincibility. His DPs are fully invincible so is one of his supers, the other 2 of his supers also have alot of invincibility at start up. He has decent speed, does good damage, has bad reach, but has unique tools (invincibility on alot of his moves) overall a good character.

EDIT: I forgot about his two infinites, he has a normal jump infinite that can be done anywhere but is hard that is: at normal jump height [j. lp, j. mp, j. u+mk] and he has a very easy corner infinite that’s at normal jump height: [j. lp, j. mp, hk hurricane] he can also do 100% from this by getting around to 80 hits (it has a special move in it so they dizzy much slower) then do standing lp, standing mp xxx shinryuken then do the normal jump infinite afterwards if they are still alive.

Yea he might be on the tier above but then again i just don’t see it.

Akuma:

He is pretty good overall, has a great variety of moves but one of the worst vitality stats in the game. He has a great bread and butter: c. lk, c. mk, standing HP xxxx Hadouken xxx Shinkuu Hadouken, around 77 damage and safe if blocked (might even be Cable safe if he’s on point haven’t tested though… it also gives nice chip IMO)

He has the hurricane kick glitch and he has a incredibly fast dash. I remember someone mentioned sent drones + Asura Warp, but that’s only decent. He has a overhead, no real high low game but he’s still pretty good IMO. If you ever play with rogue on your team you can do her rushing super and dhc into akuma’s shinkuu hadouken while she’s kissing them, they’ll fly up in the air and you will recover in time to launch them and do a hurricane kick combo and nearly kill them for only 2 levels.

I should also mention he has a very good Launcher, it still has crappy range but it’s fast it’s as fast as iron man’s if you use the d/f command (it comes out in 3 frames). Expansion assist is considered his best assist but if you have no AAA he is invincible while in the air and even his projectile assist isn’t too bad.

Felicia:

Again i haven’t played her enough. At one point her sand super was said to counter strider/doom but i think they say it isn’t the case anymore. Her command throw is decent, does good damage and gives alot of meter but range seems to suck total ass, you have to be basically point black from what i can tell but that isnt’ too hard considering you can cancel a dash into the throw. She seems to have a good special move set and she can combo into 2 of her supers reliably. She seems like a good overall character. Her punch throw can be mashed for damage. I don’t know her too well but i’d say sand splash assist (expansion?) is her best one. You might put her in the tier above shrug.

Thanos:

Yea you might put him in the tier below. He has no air throw, and people really really hate that, however he’s still pretty good IMO. I recently saw a player play thanos, he used a pretty nifty bnb, i think it was something lk standing lk, mk, hk xxx soul, which is slightly better than power since it may be harder to combo into from further away. Thanos has alot of useful supers in fact I think he has the most supers in the game. He’s a meter whore and proud of it, he can always combo Power super into soul super and he has his air knee into air tackle for a overhead and decent damage (best used with a assist that will cover your ass like sent g i would guess). He has safe chip with Power and Soul is said to catch people who are tryign to super jump away although it’s still a risky move. He’s a overall strong character with good comboes and great supers. His capture and dash assist are his best although capture is probably his best overall assist.

That’s really all for Mid tier and low mid.

I’ll cover low tiers next, and if i’m wrong about any of these characters feel free to say so.

I’d actually rank the shotos Akuma, Ryu, and Ken in that order. In a world of one hit kills, any lower tier character is gonna die after getting hit once. So the low stamina point is starting to matter less. But Akuma backed with say Sentinel has so many ways to initiate one hit kills and DHC’s. He also has the tools to punish full screen and midscreen (best of Ryu and Ken).

With Ryu and ken, here’s how i see it. They’re more or less the same speed on dashing and mobility, so they both have about the same chance of getting in. They have the same priority normals, so we’ll leave that out for now. But once they get in, here’s where i think ryu shines over ken:

  1. His throws are far better for throw into assist combos and resets.
  2. His combos with assists are more damaging than Ken’s combos with assists. There are just so many ways you can set up shin shoryuken combos or flying screen shinku hado combos.

this is all of course from my experiences.

I see you’re point dude, i mean zaza used wolverines and his principal was “Rush or be rushed”.

Ken IMO is still the most well rounded, he doesn’t have a good fireball but he has alot of options and alot more mix up than Akuma does. Granted Akuma has a much better dash and he has a great BNB and useful supers but still stamina does matter some, stamina isn’t everything but Sent would not be as high as he is right now without his staggering defense.

As far as getting in Akuma is probably better, but even in keeping up pressure Ken is still probably better and i’ll explain why in a little.

Ryu in no way is as good as Ken, he doesn’t have the hurricane glitch, his reach is just as puny and he doesn’t have that good of a sf2 style cross up or anything like ken’s command cross up. He has jab fireballs which are decent and shinkuu hadouken but i simply don’t think he’s as good as ken, ken is also a pixie, something ryu is not, which means he can utilize all 6 if his attacks in a chain and even cancel into the command cross up when he gets push blocked to try to get back in (his HP roll covers 50-60% of the screen). He also has the option of cancelling his c. lk, c. fp (launch) into his overhead. Ryu hardly has anything at all, he has his HP throw which is good for wake up games and yes his throws do synergize better with assists however I’d say it’s a stretch to put him over Ken, since Ken has so many tools, the hk glitch, his invincibility, and although his mix up is sub par compared to top tiers (sf2 cross up that has ALOT of stun, command roll cross ups, one of the longest ranged overheads in the game) it’s still alot more than what Ryu has. On another note, Ryu’s HP throw is still rollable (it’s just a little harder to time) so as far as wake up games it’s still not that great, and Ken’s kick throw is mashable so you can probably still get around the same ammount of damage from mashing a kick throw with Ken than you can with Ryu throw + assists.

I will admit though, Akuma vs. Ken is arguable, Akuma has some really good normals, he even has the old school launcher (3 frames when using the d/f command) so maybe akuma can at some times be considered better but in my opinion Ken is the best, Ryu is way behind him.

i do agree with a lot of what your saying. I agree with a lot of your points. and they’re the reason why i’d much rather have Ken solo than Ryu. Ken can cancel into his overhead, but the downside of his overhead is that it’s much slower than ryu’s. you can catch it as he starts waving his leg up. sure, ryu may not have a hurricane glitch in the air (at least an abusive one), but his damage comes more from his shinku. he does however, maintain that glitch on the ground. Try comboing the hurricane kick(two hits) from a rocket punch assist into a shinku and watch how much damage that baby does. ryu can cover his assists better in the event that he or ken has to throw out an assist while they’re getting rushed down. in the end, i just see ryu as a better team player.

As for invincibility, when it comes to ryu or ken’s aa’s, it depends what i’m looking for. if i want to add damage to my combos or have a simple “get your ass off me” assist, i’d go for ryu. if i want to really piss them off and punish their assists, i’d go for ken.

I disagree. Akuma takes so much damage to even make that type of exxageration about 1 hit kills still doesn’t do him justice. Many times I’ve played Team Shoto (for fun ofcourse) and when Akuma dies so fast you really don’t even know how you died. Akuma’s Messatsu Gou Hadou IS AHVB punishable, but much less than more moves. I’ve made combacks from HSFx2 w/ Ken but if Akuma ever gets hit with that GGPO.

Ryu is decent but not better than Ken IMO. In fact the only reason why this is debate-able is because Ryu SHDK gives him better range than Ken. Ken can achieve better results IMO since he’s faster and has very useful supers (Shoryureppa plows throw HSF after Gaurd Cancelling:devil:) though all of them have crap recovery. His AC is killer too.

What’s funny is that Ken takes 105% damage and Sakura takes 100% (average). :rofl:

Oh and other things to note about Sakura:

-She has an infinite against Sent: (J.LK, J.HK xx HK Senpu Kyaku reapeat) And because it has a special move in the combo it NEVER DIZZIES!!! :bgrin:

-Her best jump in is J.HK, LK Senpukyaku which does 38 damage on it’s own.

-When near or at the corner do this AC: J.HK xx LK Senpu Kyaku, C.LK, C.HP, J.LK, HK Senpu Kyaku, J.FP, J.FK, C.LK, C.HP. Tons of damage right there 90+ points!!!:badboy:

-Her BNB super combo(s) is C.LK, C.MK, LP Shouoken, XX Haru Ichiban or Shinku Hadouken.

-Her guard break is J.FP, LK. Senpu Kyaku

oh and to clarify the the counter thing that Higher Jin said it’s basically this repost:

My team> Sakura/IM/Sent

Awesome team cuz for example Cable does viperbeam, Sakura does Shouoken, u cancel into Haru Ichiban (Startup is instantaneous!!!) delaying into PC while JAB viper beam is in the middle of firing!!!:smiley:

U can treat Haru Ichiban like [a ghetto] Tempest, becuz of the quick startup u can DHC into Proton Cannon… or Hail.

EX: I was playing my friend and since he knew my “trick” I did above he did Cable’s s.fp (I did Shouoken) XX into scimitar (here I did Haru Ichiban) XX into AHVB (I delayed into PC) and PC still hit him!!! See the usefullness!!! :clap:

Oh yea that’s the other thing.

Ken has infinites, while the others don’t (his jumping infinite ( i think it’s j. lp, j. mp, j. u +mk) can be done anywhere, i can’t do it consistently however).

His corner infinite can be 100% combo i think.

Again since it has a special move it only dizzies around 85 hits.

you can do something like psylocke, [jump lp, mp, hk hurricane] repeat in brackets then i think you do:

standing lp, standing mp, shinryuken.

For the kill.

and on another note, after the shinryuken in the corner, if you didn’t kill them it creates flying scree which lets you do the normal jump infinite until you kill them if you didn’t already.

Cool stuff Sakura has a similar inf in the corner: J.LP, J.LK, J.MP, J.MK, J.FP, LK Senpu Kyaku. which you can end with SDHK or Haru Ichiban.:cool:

Her standing sent inf also works on standing doom :slight_smile: Not sure if it works outside of the corner though-- and speaking of doom, can’t his RH throw be juggled off of from mid screen? I thought it could but it’s been a while since I’ve used him.

Thanx for the heads up:tup: but I don’t think it is a true infinte because it seems to whiff after the 13th rep so I never treated it like a true inf. Not to mention you need to use J.LK and not J.HK.

And I’ve done it with Cable also but only twice.

MvC2 is the most balanced game in the universe.

Who in their right mind thinks a fireball shooting Karate Kid can take on a Flying Metal Manipulator?

Or, a Cactus taking on a Giant Robot with frying pan arms?

Scary, but the best thread on MvC2 ever.

Hey, I like expansion assist. It works nice w/venom.

Can anyone do his relaunching aircombo? It’s like, launch, lp,lk,mp lk,mp then something something. Is there some kind of trick for timing the second lk? Sometimes I press lk fast and it hits, other times I get the mk. It seems like if i hold down it comes out.

Also I was trying this weird launch combo/gb setup/maybe where u launch, lp,lk,mp, then wait and let them block lk, mk and then u land before them and guardbreak launch d/f hp. This probably doesn’t work but then I’m a noob so i need advice…i’ll go to the jin section.

Ryu > Magneto.

:tup:

Edit: Sak infinite on Sent can go up to 74 hits in a best-case scenario. Which is good, but of course it doesn’t go on FOREVER, since very few infinites tend to do that in MvC2.

Ken infinite (Jab, Strong, u+Forward) seems to be Flying Screen only…?

And Sak has Hunter chain, btw, so she can only do 3 attacks during a regular jump, so that other infinite can’t work.

j99- Ony works in the corner, I think. And Doom can’t juggle off of his kick throw without assists, they can block on the way down. You can superjump up and throw them again (and possibly otg APA) or cross them up on the way down.

Finally someone puts her Mid-Tier!!!. She can kick top/god-tier ass a lot more than most of the other top middle tiers…believe me I know cause I use her. DHC to her and from her are deadly as well as to the assist and the main character. He hk does stop most rush down. Her missiles are tight and have real quick recovery. Her dashes aren’t really that good at all but her double jump do more than make up for that. Her cheer and fire is mostly use in air combo which aren’t really good to end a air combo with but it is useful if you need to stay in the air a bit longer and to keep a big character down a little bit longer to be hit by Doom rocks. Other than that it is basically used to do chip when you have nothing else to do.

Hmmm I guess I never went up that high in a real match I usually get tired around 40+ hits and finish them off with C.LK, C.MK, LP Shouoken xx Shinku Hadouken into Proton Cannon.:razzy:

I gues it’s J.LP, J.LK, J.FP, LK Senpu Kyaku then, my bad I’ve only used that one in training mode.:sweat:

Wow, excllent writing here, and props for the charlie vid, it’s short, but quite concise, keep it up.

Does anyone here know somewhere I can find some morrigan matches?
(unfortunately dc & #efnet are nonos for me. Office’s firewall :sad:)

EDIT: also, can someone point me to a good mechanics FAQ for the game? I’ve been playing for some time now, but it’s the 1st time I hear about wavedashing, so who knows what else I’m missing…