This shouldn’t really be a question or a complain, its definitely normal, only a few people actually have a problem with that and I can see you’re not that kind of person, so just leave it as is, its what we call a strategy
Again, there’s a difference between defensive and lame. Sounds to me like Eddie Lee would make you come to him, and when you did, he’d capitalize on your mistakes. There’s quite a bit of difference between that and teleporting away every time your opponent gets close. I think they’re calling Eddie’s play style “lame” as a joke, even though it’s a legit style that’s just defensive and basically allows the more offensive player to beat themselves. There’s nothing wrong with that that I can see.
I’m gonna post this for you again because you evidently didn’t catch it the first time. I’ll even bold the important parts.
Did you even read that article you posted? Do you realize that playing defensive and even running away took a lot more skill in a game like Street Fighter 2 than it does in SF4?
Once again, as a Guile player myself, THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEFENSIVE/ZONING AND PLAYING LAME/RUNAWAY. Read it again please!
Its a drag because you can’t break it every time? I find a win against an “annoying” style to be the most satisfying. Sounds like you may need to work on your ‘stalking’ thats what an an infighter does against a runaway. He stalks, he uses footwork to keepup, and to slowly cutoff the ring.
The Boxer:
He would be looked at as smart if he had a considerable points lead and decided to get on his bicycle the last few rounds. That is what an OUT BOXER does, he boxes, he makes you miss, he tags you and scores points, keeps you at the end of his jab, picks you apart, and when its all said and done when he has a considerable lead and you have no chance except to go for the knockout with obvious hail mary punches he stays away, does not engage and evades/clinches until the fight is over and his fist is raised. Most Outboxers don’t have much of a punch, so they use ring generalship and intelligence to beat the other guy. Perhaps he hurt his fist and is hanging on to the lead as he refuses to quit?
An example of Runaway: Amir Khan running away from Marcos Maidana. Amir scored a knockdown on Maidana and was far faster then the terribly slow Maidana. However, somewhere in the middle of the fight Maidana caught him. Maidana is very heavy handed and Amir’s got quite a suspect chin. from this point on Amir refused to engage and ran away. Peppering a punch here or there and making sure to not get hit by Maidana’s power. By the time late enough in the fight where Maidana caught up to him it was already too late. Amir got away with the win.
Another Example: Oscar de la Hoya vs Tito Trinidad. This is a fantastic example of runaway biting you in the ass. De La Hoya was doing quite well if you ask me. a fight where he had a bit of a lead. But not a huge one. Yes DLH was winning, but it was not a terribly wide margin. DLH gassed, Tito kept coming, DLH decides to runaway and barely engaged, while Trinidad kept coming and scoring here and there. Fight goes to the scorecards and Tito wins
A runaway Akuma winning EVO would be respected. He would win the biggest Tourney in the USA. which means his runaway Akuma was played properly and better then the rest of the top players in the world who showed up.
That said. to anyone here who thinks Defensive, Runaway, or Keepaway is lame or noob friendly. You are an idiot. Learn how to stalk’em into a corner, otherwise Stay free.
How to beat a runaway. take the lead. Run away yourself. Most runaway players have no idea how to beat their own strategy. Maybe you’ll learn how to clutch out a close win like this for a change.
Apparently you didn’t, lol
Running away is a crucial part of a player’s defensive skills. The turtle is not flawless; opponents will get in eventually - especially in SFIV. Your argument is bullshit…no character can play an optimal defensive game without running away at some point. The reason is pretty simple - nobody controls the entire screen. Why are you going to play in a disadvantageous position? Because you’re brave? Sounds more like a person is being stupid.
It’s perfectly fine for a play style to frustrate you. I myself get pretty pissed off when someone does nothing but try to run away. But I’m not going to say it’s scrubby or cowardly…because it isn’t. They found something that works, it’s my job to figure out a way to counter it.
You’re not being unclear but you are refuting first hand accounts with guesses
- Chris G didn’t start using morrigan combos until months after he started winning tournaments with her, before that his game was to get as far away as possible as soon as you got in on him.
- Not only am I positive that Justin was flat out running away from watching, he actually said it to me so this isn’t a guess at all on my part.
- What exactly is the difference between running away and making you come to him, it seems like your definition of lame requires a teleport. Again they aren’t calling it lame as a joke I played against Eddie Lee on multiple occasions back then, and I was in no way joking about him not hitting forward, I actually stood behind him playing and counted the number of times he went forward at one tournament. And again you’re arguing against 1st hand account with what you guessed happened.
Finally question - What do you count Spiral/Sentinel as? because that was also the team of the top player in the country at one point. Does that not count as runaway because your hitting the other person while you runaway?
The operative phrase in that piece was “Betting that your defense is better than your opponent’s offense.” In order for there to be defense, your opponent has to actually be able to attack you. A Shoto who is using the old fireball/SRK trick is actually playing offense, likewise, a Guile throwing booms just to see what you’ll do, is as well. Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like in order for there to be defense, there has to be offense. Running away or two players juking back and forth trying to fake each other out is neither offense nor defense, but that grey area between the two.
RE the “turtle is not flawless” The Dhalsim/Guile match in SF4 would like a word. If the Sim is good at his zoning deal, there’s NOTHING Guile can do to get in short of hoping Sim messes up. It’s quite possibly Guile’s worst matchup. A good Sim can control up to 3/4 of the screen in that match. No it’s not the whole screen, but it might as well be.
You didn’t say anything about any of those being “first hand accounts” until just now. I don’t know who you are, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Runaway is when you don’t even LET them get to you. As soon as they do, you’re at the other end of the screen.It doesn’t require a teleport. In fact with the enhanced mobility a lot of characters have in the more modern games (SF4 aside) it seems like it’s easier than ever to run away.
I don’t play Marvel, and from what little experience I have with it (I own MvC2 and have played it quite a bit, but never gotten down to the nuts and bolts of it because it’s not a game that interests me all that much) it’s a whole different kind of thing than most games. Playing runaway in Marvel seems advantageous especially if you’ve got a character with halfway decent projectiles because of the chance of getting ToD’ed if you mess up. But again, that’s just what I see based on my limited experience with it.
Third Strike (which S-kill obviously knows nothing about based on his synopsis of it in that piece Breaker posted), Guilty Gear (where you get Negative Penalties for playing runaway), Hyper Fighting, those are my games. Playing runaway in those games is either highly disadvantageous (Guilty Gear), difficult (Hyper Fighting), or requires tons of knowhow and even, it’s not worth doing (Third Strike.) I guess in the end, it’s all about what you play, and the games I play the most don’t really make running away (i.e. running for the entirety of the match) a viable option.
I don’t think there’s much worth to runaway in Guilty Gear. Granted negative penalty takes your meter. But really. Everyone has tools and if you really need to get clear you have burst.
I look at running away as defensive. I am keeping You away from me so technically i am negating your attack. People that hate runaway and have a projectile in sf4 have an easy answer. Throw fireball and fadc. Proceed to walk forward.
If “keeping your distance to the opponent while throwing out various zoning tools (be that projectiles or pokes)” doesn’t count as runaway in your eyes,
then nobody ever can actually runaway and I have no idea what you’re mad about. Your definition of runaway - backing off without mounting a bit of an offense - sucks in any fighter ever because you corner yourself for free and … well, don’t do anything.
You can do that when there’s 3 seconds left on the clock and you have a lifelead (and quite frankly, doing anything else would be flatout retarded in this case), but there’s no game where you can just “run away” for 30+ seconds and not get smashed to pieces for it. Ivan Ooze would lose if he did that…
If you make a tactic taboo, the game simply becomes who is willing to play as close to the taboo tactic as possible with breaking some arbitrary rule.
The only sensible choice is to play no-holds-barred and work out solutions within the game. People complaining about this kind of fair play are either deluded about the nature of strategy or are simply too angry to prevent themselves from saying what they know is stupid.
TL;DR don’t hate the player hate the game!
I have been 5 years playing in a serious way 2D Fighting games, Kof 02, SFA3, SSF4 AE, Kof 13. In all this time i was playing, i played the turtle style for about 8 months.
The turtle style is a plan for have a better “WIN” Average ratio, when you turtle, you wish WIN. You are playing the game strictly for WIN, The turtle style is often used in tornaments like EVO etc.
The problem the turtle Style: You dont get better in general with your character, usually you are doing “The same exploit all the fight, Fireball - Zone - Fireball - Teleport- Teleport - Zone - Ultra combo,” all the fight you do the same, you will get better using this exploits but you usually are limiting yourself, for only repeat like a monkey the same patern in a infinite cycle.
There a big diference between a Newbie press all buttons the same time for win a match, this is not a rushdow style.
A rushdown play style, is a player, need make new plans for attack every min, is a player, need make new strategy every round for break the exploits the turtle users will use, is a player only care for get better Himself and not for get fame or for get a good win average ratio, usually this players keep their brain 10 times more busy than a silly turtle monkey will repeat the same exploits forever only for “win”.
The turtle style can be saved for tornaments like EVO or important things and the Rushdown style is the play style can be used for play with friends, noobs, online fights etc. Lets dont fuck the 2D fighting game exp turtling in every fight for the love the god. The other day my Father wanted play some SSF4 Ae for remember his days in SF2, and my brother was TURTLING AND ZOING HIM, when my dad had 10 years without play a fucking game rolf, plz dont do this kind of Bull shit -_-.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Please stop giving advice.
Bottom line is people hate turtling and keepaway cause it isnt as fun to watch nor is it as fun to play against. I like watching a good keepaway game, but only for certain amounts of time… Watching dieminion or chris g do there thing for more than 10 games would grate on my nerves.
Also i dont like playing against hard keepaway at all. Think like daigo versus f champ ryu v sim for example… I wouldnt like playing the ryu end of that matchup, seems supremely annoying. Playing against sim with most characters i find rather annoying. Its annoying when i lose to a near perfect that took 80 seconds to occur, its annoying when my opponent is sitting on a near perfect 80 seconds in and then i get an in and a knock down then run a train and kill him in 5 seconds flat… I “played” for 10 seconds of a 90 second match and won though i got owned for 80 seconds… Its just annoying all around. I used to be highly respectful of keepaway characters and the players that play them… But as time goes on, i just find it more and more a style of play that is outdated… Now, im referring to hard keepaway. Ala sim and guile… The kind of keepaway where if the keepaway character gets there way, the other character doesnt even get to play, unless trying to navigate a see of limbs or booms is considered “playing” even when you dont get an in, the entire round.
Compare that to something like ryu versus abe or a ryu mirror… Lots of footsies lots of positions where neither character has a distinct advantage yet many tactics are available. Streetfighter always starting at a certain distance away gives hard keepaway characters an opening round advantage… Which is one of the most frustrating things about them.
And this isnt me saying that there is no skill in playing keepaway… There is a tremendous amount of skill in keepaway. And playing a character like sim in sf4 can be extremely frustrating… Its why i dropped him… Own someone for 80% of the round and then just die if you let them in once.
Yeah, i personally think that both of the all or nothing characters in streetfighter are outdated even though i love them both (gief and sim) they arent fun for most people to fight against (everyone has to run from gief, everyone has to approach sim) personally i find that positions that are more even are the most exciting as they allow for more dynamic play. And i think most people tend to agree with that even if they wont admit it.
-dime
People always seem to mix zoning, and turtling together. They are completely different playstyles. Zoning is an aggressive style like rushdown. You just just attack from longer distances than rushdown. Turtling is a very passive playstyle, where you don’t attack very much. You just wait for them to whiff a move, and punish them.
This match is excellent example of turtling. Eddie Lee is constantly reacting to Kuni’s jump-ins and whiffed SPDs/Green hands/low jabs.
[media=youtube]cIdtUJKVolg[/media]
FINALLY some who can tell the difference
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Dhalsim is freaking awesome. Guile is okayish. Slows down the experience for people I’d say. Also, they punish aggressive players
One thing I notice with turtlers, when they pick other other characters that are rushdown heavy they can’t play for shit, I have respect for players who can do both.
Personally, i only watch chris g marvel matches because im not into the game. I think its hysterical how much chip people take from his morrigan, and even more funny how upset everyone gets about him winning with her.
Its obviously not easy to do what he does, or everyone would be doing it.
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for whatever reason i don’t find “lame play” to be actually lame, i mean i really enjoy watching guile , sagat, etc even though i use chars. like (seth cammy cody …)
i mean i hate watching ibuki i find her so boring even though she is a rushdown , mixup charcter
o_O
It’s difficult for the new player or inexperienced player/spectator to appreciate smart and flawless keep away/spacing when they have hardly any knowledge of the game regardless. Short sighted yet common.
For example if I were to watch a grandmaster vs grandmaster chess match from a absolute novice perspective, I’d probably miss every important play and will not know the significance of them, but I will see “Black took out 4 pieces and lost nothing within 8 turns”. This is without commentary.
But if the turtle player sticks with their primary character and win, then who cares how effective their rush is? They’ve perfected the execution and strategy of their playstyle so that they don’t have to attack, they just simply have to punish and zone out the other player. This style has been effective across a variety of games and platforms. This is why the majority of “offensive or rushdown” types eventually start to slow down after awhile and play more defensive. Defense is a more solid platform to gain consistent wins over pure offense.
People have been complaining about fireballs and “lame” strategies since the 90s. They hate it because it’s so effective, for what is seemingly, very little work. It’s extremely difficult maintaining a highly defensive playstyle and it doesn’t get enough credit.
The reason the Marvel kids are so vocal about it, is that they normally associate Marvel as a high-paced and highly offensive game, so they get rattled when they see someone just “spamming” fireballs and winning.