^Ok, but my main point is that the input lag is much greater with MvC3 than SSF4
They’re both variable entirely based on connection, and Marvel has more data to send than SF4. Even if it’s identical netcode, it’s going to be worse for Marvel no matter what. Input lag netcode is ass, period.
sf4 and mvc3 netcodes are both ass. comparing one pile of poo to a bigger pile of poo is stupid… they are still piles of poo.
old xbl cvs2 and hyperfighting netcodes may be worse and slower… but they are still comparable to sf4 and mvc3 netcode in that when you use them you are playing a game that is COMPLETELY different online to the one offline… so in the end they all suck.
until capcom or someone else makes a GREAT fighting game with input delay less than 5 frames, it will ALWAYS be an inferior product compared to the technology being used in non fighting games.
i can take my online counterstrike/warcraft/FPS game and have it transition seemlessly to offline. that cant be said of current fighting games unless talking about hd remix (ggpo STYLE netcode used) or original blazblue (also ggpo style rollback netcode used)
online is about patterns and flowcharts much more than offine when it comes to input delay based codes so they will never be a great substitute for the real thing… so in other words ggpo (or any decent rollback style netcode such as HDR or BB) or gtfo.
-dime
You guys gotta stop trying to convince people why sf4 and mvc3 netcode is bad and why ggpo is better. If they are dumb enough to make statements like that, do they really deserve your precious time to educate them? There are plenty of articles on ggpo and fighting game netcodes, and mike Z latest article giving a thorough explanation, so if people still don’t get it, you certantly won’t convince them.
Just trying to save people some time…
you ARE right… but then again you are a bit wrong. allowing people to go on thinking that the sf4/mvc3 netcode is the best thing there is and that its “good enough” holds back the community as a whole. all one has to do is look at capcom unity to be able to tell.
my basis is that i WANT great netcode and that ive personally seen how shit netcode affects the community in an adverse way… case in point my best friend that i grew up with playing fighting games for the last 10+ years:
hes VERY good at fighting games and fps and warcraft… just a good gamer in general. however he hasnt played a fighting game seriously since soulcalibur 2, where he was probably amongst one of the best players in the nation never losing to aris in a tournament and consistently getting to grandfinals versus aris/semi/tietyt.
dude used to come over my house to try out sf4… offline he was fine, we had alot of fun playing and me teaching him how to play… but you can only play one person for so long before it becomes boring. so hed jump online… and thats when the bitchfest of horrible laggy play and losing to scrubs/scrubby tactics came up… his point was that sf4 IN ITS ENTIRETY was a shitty game cause of horrible netcode. why should a guy like him that can pwn in other types of games waste his time on a laggy ass game where its hard as hell to get consistent games against a multitude of opponents unlike mobas and fps games and wow.
now, hes not going to come on srk and whine and state his feelings… hes just not going to play the game which loses me a great sparring buddy and loses the community of another player.
but this isnt about him, its about ALL THE PEOPLE LIKE HIM. he (and they) have valid points that they make everytime they DONT buy sf4/shitty netcode fighting game… yet modern warfare is selling 20 million units or someshit… he actually likes fighting games more than fs and warcrack… but a shitty experience is a shitty experience… and my point is that capcom as well as other fighting game companies are losing LOTS of customers because of the shit netcode… and well that isnt good for anyone. much less the people that post on srk and actually put alot of time into these games… even when i lived in so cal it wasnt easy to actually play more than one or 2 good sessions in a weeks time… and thats even when going to wnf every week.
the only real solution is to either live within 20 minutes of an arcade hotspot OR play online.
SOOO the online has to be GOOD not ok, not passable for shitty players or those that arent hindered much by input lag/ have the greatest connections in the world. people like to play fighting games so that they can get better… and most players even the outright beginners can realize that they probably wont be able to do that with the current online that fighting games offer so they play fps and mobas instead
and seriously who can blame them? i certainly cant since i refuse to play online.
-dime
I see your point and yea if we don’t make noise then Capcom won’t hear us, but I guess I should say try not to get into arguments with people who say sf4 netcode is good. There really is no need to explain it more then ones. There are a lot of dense people around. Just keep supporting ggpo in whatever way you can, but it shouldn’t be a chore.
If you think SSF4 online is laggy to the point of it being unplayable, than your connection is ASS…
I’m running 20mbps cable internet hardwired to my xbox and the lag is hardly noticible, compared to MvC3 where it feels like I’m playing under water.
I don’t care about ggpo. I know we’re not getting it for atleast the next 2 years… What I do care about is having the best possible netcode.
I’m done with this thread.
my connection may/may not have been ass… but i was running 25mb down/2.5 mb up and i STILL had to deal with plus 10 frames or so of input lag which to me is unplayable. i dont care whether or not you believe me about my connection speed and that i was also hardwired and still had those types of input delay. but that is the reason why i consider sf4 and mvc3 netcode to be ass. and its also why most other people consider them to be ass. maybe your line is on crack as far as connection quality… i dont know, i dont really care. all i know is that HDR and BB played like true champion netcodes whether or not my line was ass and that was actually BEFORE i got my isp to up cracked out speed… also yes i tested my speed via speedtest.net and yes i was able to consistently pull +20 mb down +2 up with virtually no packet loss and a ping of 30 or so… shit would still lag massively as far as input delay was concerned. and no it wasnt my tv either cause it was extremely noticeable offline versus online on the same tv…
i even tried playing against a fellow srk’r who lived one mile away from me and we still had big amounts of input delay when playing on training mode stage on ssf4… i played against shizza who lived about 10 miles away from me and we had big input delay. i would play against my other friend who lived a block away from shizza and those were the best connections i could get… yet he wasnt on 25 mb down like i was…
basically the netcode was extremely random as far as who it would connect well to and who it wouldnt… but 96% of my games were played in lag that felt like +10 frames of lag or so… basically like mvc3 lag generator at 2 or 3 bars… and that just isnt playable imho.
-dime
you can’t let people think that sf4\mvc3 are good net codes because that will be the word of mouth to capcom so why should they fix what isn’t broke?
what I find incredibly odd about some of these guys is that a developer can go out of his way, like Mike Z, and explain the intricacies of GGPO\input delay with math problems that would make sense to a 2nd grader and you still have people calling sf4\mvc3 good online. Mother fuckers are arguing against facts!!!
I don’t know how people could be so childish as to argue against cold hard facts. A developer is telling you its impossible to play properly online with input delay based net code and people are going to argue against a 4 year college degree? how much more proof do you need? its honestly getting absurd @ this point, the math examples mike z used could be understood by almost anyone…
As long as you have the minimum bandwidth to transfer the data (<1 mb/s up and down) it doesn’t matter at all. What matters is cable types, distance, and routing tables within ISP networks. All of that contributes to input lag.
i have 60 mb / 3 mb up and i want to kill myself 95% of the time playing ssf4 ae and mvsc3 ( before i sold the game ) online. I know it’s a average internet connection , but gesh 
I played over 3 years of wow with a crappy cpu that overheat easily and i didn’t have this much difficulty with that over the capcom modern game i have right now
Average? That’s better than like, ~80% of the continental US has access to at all. Once again though, location and routing tables matter more than anything.
so I had this really good idea to make net code more relevant amongst developers. When you go out and look for a used
ew car, there is always that option for a test drive. You get to see how the car responds to turns, accelerating, seeing if there is anything wrong with the transmission, listening to the engine. You get to check out what you buy before you actually buy it and it got me thinking why can’t it be like that for fighting games?
I think the industry should force mandatory trial versions via download of all games that include net code. That way we can know what we’re actually buying instead of showing up to the cafeteria on mystery meat day. It doesn’t have to be the full games, allow like 5 characters or some shit with the ability to access the net code, HDR did this with ryu\ken and allowed the game to be played like a month and a half before the drop date. Essentially a test drive of the HDR net code and because of that, it received lots of good reviews. The game might have been ass but the net code was certainly great by comparison
This will eventually force all developers to put out decent net code as they will be in competition with each other before their games EVEN hit the market. Whats even more of a + is that great players can write reviews about the net code, rather than paid employees who work for magazines\websites that never bash any video game company. I’ve read countless reviews about the reason mvc3 sucks online is because there isn’t a spectator mode! yea, fuck the net code, that shit doesn’t matter…
This is pretty much the only way to force good net code on companies. Put them in direct competition with each other even before they have a chance to sell their games. Negative feed back of an inferior product 1 month before the game actually drops will fuck up their sales so bad that they will be basically forced into a position where they have to start making a good product.
its kind of far fetched @ this point, probably would have to pass some laws within the entertainment industry but if it were to happen, it would prevent this shady business style Capcom is so fond of.
This isnt true. If you had any experience in serious game development you would know you can’t just implement anything you want in to your engine - everything has it’s own requirements and limitations. Simply put, to use GGPO you have to design the engine around it. For MvC3 they used the MT engine that was designed for all of Capcom’s games. Which is common practice in game development, since you won’t have to rewrite every single thing, including all the rendering features, tools, performance optimization, etc. Companies usually stick to “their” game engines because they take years and years to develop to the point they are at today, as well as the fact that they put a huge amount of cash and resources in to developing it in the first place. You are basically asking them spend an additional 3-5+ additional years developing an engine around GGPO.
Maybe we’ll see it added once they do a major revision of the engine if they can figure out a way to get it implemented, but most likely we wont see it implemented until they design a new engine.
Just think if you worked at a company and you had to come up with a way to tell your boss “Screw the hundreds of thousands of dollars we spent on our engine for the last 7+ years, who cares if we invested that much money and have an existing business plan to make this our flagship engine for the next 10 years, we dont need any of these tools to spent years on! Who cares if we’ll have to rewrite the capability to port our games to PC/360/PS3/Portables all over again? Let’s just start over, because, come on, its GGPO man!”.
How do you think that conversation would go? Not to mention the value is probably more in the millions than hundreds of thousands.
You mean something like a public online beta test ( playters vs players ,of course ) , 10 days trial or something like that ? I asked a long time ago this a question similar to this for sven about sf3 oe and his answer was something simple like “no” . i agree with this idea
you bring up an incredibly fair point but there are always subtle questions that pop up
like did they even consider online play an important aspect when coming up with this modern system? the answer is a clear no. If they did, they wouldn’t have built it like that and would of built it around online play which other companies do btw. Skullgirls, BB, and the FPS\RTS all take that shit into account before making the game. Capcom doesn’t.
why not program it so the net code could be later manipulated down the road easier? you can use forethought to prevent that type of shit from happening. They painted themselves into a corner and that isn’t my fault. Their poor planning has created an inferior product.
its 2k11 about to be 2k12, sf4 came out in 2k8, online has been an important aspect of the video game world since quake 3 and counter strike 1999ish. W\E the case is, capcom is just FUCKING up left and right. They had 10 years to witness the revolution of online play for competitive games before they even made sf4 so why is it this bad? whats even worse is that sfxt will be bad online again! so thats 11 games in 11 years that capcom can’t make 1 modern game with successful net code.
I full understand your point, they can’t go back and fix it now its way to late but the question remains why build your games like that? competitive games THRIVE online and to thrive online successfully, you need superior net code. Small companies like skullgirls\BB understand how important online is BEFORE they release their games and build around ggpo, so why is Capcom given different treatment? when small timers are out doing you ON A BUDGET, something is severely wrong, especially for a billion dollar company.
capcom is honestly scared thats all. They know their online is trash and if they let everyone try their net code for a month before their game came out and everyone said it sucked online, it would affect their sales so bad.
Their sales approach stems around the fact that they just basically lie to people about their net code with phrases like speed of light or its getting better! even seth said mvc3 was pretty good online and the game is atrocious @ best.
GGPO did not even exist when the engine was being created, the first game released with the engine came out in 2006 so development must have been long before then.
Why would they design their engine around a networking code that did not exist? Their engine has the same network capabilities as every other game engine that was released at the time.
Not sure why you are trying to bend things to fit Capcom to wanting netcode that is not up to par. Their primary goal is to sell their game and if they knew a way to improve the reception they would do it. You can be sure that they know if they got GGPO in to MvC3 they would sell more, but due to business reasons and investment in to their engine they can’t easily do that.
If something in the game industry does not make sense, don’t think the developers don’t know it. The explanation is usually that the developers do know, but business/developmental reasons are preventing them from being able to.
I have noticed in this thread that no one has mentioned what is probably the true root of the problem: The internet service provided in America is a joke in comparison to other countries. Consider further that this is a Japanese game, one of the top five nations for internet quality and broadband penetration. Combine that with Japan’s population density, and coming to a conclusion that the netcodes Capcom has provided might actually provide a near-offline experience.
In Japan.
When you take the State’s internet quality, broadband penetration, and population density into account(which according to m, problems undoubtedly must begin to arise. Likewise when you take into consideration that despite internet usage being at an all time high, most people are still pretty uninformed when it comes to maximizing their internet connections. There’s also an emphasis in the states for high download speeds, which for general internet usage(web browsing, downloading music/movies/video clips and other media) is great, but for gaming you need both good download AND upload speeds. Being able to download 2mbps doesn’t mean shit the other guy is uploading at 96kbps.
What part of my post do you actually disagree with? Your point seems to be that Capcom is using their current netcode because they don’t have any real motivation to switch to GGPO or anything else [in terms of development], which is what I was saying.
Even if every single person in the US had a 1 tb/s up and down on a wired fiber optic connection coast to coast net play would still suck, and due to the way many, many ISPs handle traffic in routing tables, you’d still often have a shit connection to someone next door, because you’re on Charter, and they’re on AT&T.
Upload speeds have actually been going down as a trend on broadband connections, because ISPs have decided the only use for residential high upload is file sharing. I’ve been told by an AT&T service rep that their service “is not intended to be used for gaming purposes whatsoever, so we are under no obligation to keep the upload speeds at any kind of standard rate.” For reference, AT&T advertises their internet packages in the US by their maximum bandwidth, not their minimums, and they guarantee no minimum rates of data transfer.
All of that said, even if we had Japanese network infrastructure, and we were guaranteed automatic match making would never match you out of state, roll back is still preferable to input lag.