i understand your point ,but im sure rollback feature was invented before GGPO . If Capcom can’t use rollback netcode , they could come up with something more advance over input delay netcode . As long as capcom don’t put online experiences as something important to increase the sells , nothing will move quickly for the online aspect of their games.
They can’t even add the ability to read other players ping in the lobby of umvsc3 ( this mistake is repeat twice with vanilla ( i know i’m kinda annoying with this , but this look like the basic online component to me) ) . if this is not laziness , i really don’t know what it is .
Rollback is used in different prediction scenarios, but in different ways than GGPO uses it. In GGPO, in basic terms, both clients work together to work kind of like a server (which is why it takes more resources). That’s one of the reasons it’s difficult to add to existing netcode.
When it comes to ping in the lobby, that’s not in many console games for a reason - the PSN and XBL toolkits are straight up trash. For anything to do with lobby functions and matchmaking, developers are severely limited in what they can do and pretty much have to try to get things working as best as they can with the few functions they have. That’s why finding game is so annoying, and why you those errors you get when trying to join a room that doesnt exist (not just in MvC, but lots of console games). Sure, they can be better (which is proven by some games not having those problems) but depending on the matchmaking infrastructure it can be more difficult.
Now with laziness, some things could be argued and interpreted as “laziness”, but netcode and matchmaking are not one of them. Those are limitations they have to work with based upon having to use their existing engine and work with the crap PSN/XBL toolkits. Some better examples of laziness would be such as not including spectator mode (which was a conscious decision not to include).
But what that came down to is how they planned version updates/future releases. This can be interpreted as laziness since they could have included in vanilla, but many people wrongfully assume that since it was in SF4 it could easily be in MvC3, which is far from true. It would still have taken a moderate amount of development time, and sadly with the modern state first releases, developers usually focus on the core gameplay and not the extras, since they can patch, dlc, or do an expansion. It’s not like things were back in the day where developers could take as much time as they needed to polish their games. Becoming mainstream it’s likewise become much more business focused now, and it takes huge sums of money to develop now. So you have to expect these first releases to be more barebones, except in special circumstances. Usually that’s reserved for big AAA game releases that are typically exclusives.
That’s why a lot of the most innovative and polished games nowdays are the indie games. Indie teams are for sure limited by funds compared to these big companies, but that has it’s advantages. They arent making games only as a business, they are doing it because it’s their passion, and their game is their passion. You would be surprised how many indie developers put in hundreds of hours of work without even getting paid for it, and how many don’t even get paid at all until it’s time for marketing. That’s why we have games like Skullgirls coming along with all the features people want to see. And with Capcom, it’s not that they don’t want to see these features, but the big difference? Capcom’s doing it as a business, and the only way you are going to get that additional development time and funding to see those features if you can get the majority of the company to want to see them as bad as you, and manage to get all of the other external companies involved to agree with the changes. You won’t see the entire team bring their work home with them and stay up until the middle of the night just to get the game features perfect like you would with an indie developer. That’s not really laziness, but just a lack of passion that comes along with doing something as a “job”. The only time you will see Capcom work crazy hours like that is if they go in to sweat shot mode before the release deadline and force the developers to do so (which sadly is common in development schedules these days). But doing something because you “have” to never works as good as doing so because you “want” to.
Sorry for the long read, this came out longer than I expected.
that guy knows his shit
Long and Good Informative comments are always cool to read ,no prob with that .
I agree with the whole idea that touch indie companies .
Lol I can imagine Wolverine with warping beserker slash. Which way you blocking? LMAO
It would be exactly the way it is now. It’s impossible to react to B. Slash being a cross up or not and block it in time. You’ve either perfectly memorized all the spacings it can possibly cross up from, or you guess. There’s a reason it’s a 50/50. “Warping” wouldn’t change a thing with it.
Exactly. So why have GGPO if the result is gonna be the same as the current netcode?
Because on GGPO, you could react to someone starting a beam hyper, and throw back your invincible hyper. Or actually anti-air a jump in on reaction. Both of those require anticipation on input lag net codes. Or hell, maybe we want to actually be able to tech throws without input the throw tech 7 frames before we get throw? Using Berserker Slash as an example of nothing changing is silly, because it’s a single case issue compared to dozens of other things. Input lag netcode removes the ability to actually react to anything but the slowest of events. Example: they added extra frames of recovery to Ken’s LP Shoryuken in AE entirely because of how difficult it was to punish it online with anything meaningful with its -14 advantage on block. That’s a punish you can’t miss offline, but online, by the time your input is registered, those 14 frames are gone and Ken is safe. So now it’s -20 on block. Entirely to make it easier to punish online.
I guess #kanyeshrug
Maybe I have some godlike internet then. I can punish shit with invincible hypers all the time online. But yeah you do have a good point.
that’s because 12 year old button mashers don’t have the attention span to
remember a combo
There’s no good excuse for there not to be Japan-speed internet in major cities in the US. Obviously the rural areas have to deal with less-than-good internet.
Capcom knew ahead of time what platforms they were developing for. Capcom should work on optimizing their code as much as possible to reduce processor consumption so it can handle GGPO. I doubt it’s perfect. Also I would have gladly taken a dip on graphics to have online playable.
no, you’re right I forgot about that interview however there is still a glaring problem IMO.
counter strike\quake 3 went out of their way to supply customers with the best net code for the time and this was like 99-02, somewhere in there. If Capcom’s modern system wasn’t in place till 2k6, why ignore 8 years of FPS games doing incredibly well online? it was already obvious that games didn’t need to lag online to be good so why use that concept?
I also don’t understand the business argument either really. By implementing a better net code for a competitive game online, you can get more people to buy\play your game. When more people play your games online, you can release DLC and make a killing like CoD does. MvC3 sold 2 million units, CoD did 20 million units. I know they’re different games but @ one point, NO ONE played FPS games. You actually had way more people playing fighters than shooters during the late 90’s early 2k’s. Its just when the internet became part of the successful equation, fighting game developers just said fuck it and the FPS market embraced it as a potential spot for new players aka more money. Here they are 12 years later out doing Capcom by 10 fold and Capcom still can’t figure this shit out.
I’m not trying to beat you up, just offering a different perspective that’s all.
^^^^
What’s about starcraft 1 ? if the netcode was as bad as mvsc3 , i doubt this game will be a second religion in South Korea .
I do not think all the tournaments were on LAN only.
The main difference between CS/Q3 and MvC3 is as simple as MvC3 was designed for consoles. Your talking a dedicated server vs peer servers. On a dedicated or authoritative server if 1 person lags noone else does (unless specifically designed to stop if 1 person lags, like RTS games), otherwise if 1 person lags everyone else does. People can do dedicated servers on PC because it’s not an up front investment - they allow players to open up their own dedicated servers in PC games.
You can’t do that on consoles - If you want the servers to be authoritative (or dedicated) the developer has to pay for every single server themselves (which costs a LOT of money, so you only usually see that in MMO’s or F2P item shop games that constantly generate money, which is why there is a subscription fee). For 99% of the console games you play, PSN and XBox just offer basic master server functions that connect players to each other, and the players themselves are the server. Which is why if there is lag, it affects everyone.
All modern netcode uses the same methods as CS/Q3 anyway, it’s standard at this point. There’s just a difference if you are making games that are hosted by actual servers, or by players acting as a server. That’s why FPS support more players on PC than consoles. Even CoD (for the ones that let you make dedicated servers) support well over 50 players on PC, but console versions of those same releases were limited to 16. That’s also why on those same CoD releases there was noticable lag, and you seen the player who was the “Server” being passed to someone else when the player who was the server left.
Believe it or not, fighting games require a lot more resources and have lag a lot more noticable than FPS games. You have to transfer a lot more collision information, and prediction is a lot easier in FPS games. A couple frames is not noticable in FPS games due to prediction, but is in fighting games when you do a move and it don’t happen, get hit by something that isnt there, or should have hit someone and it doesnt do anything.
It’s not that Capcom “can’t get it right”, its just that fighting games are one of the hardest game types to develop netcode for. GGPO might have it slightly more right than Capcom, but GGPO was only around for ~5 years, and due to bad timing couldnt be added to their current engine.
In comparison of MvC and CoD sales, CoD did not do better because of “better netcode”. They did so because CoD4 put a lot of steam behind the series, because FPS are the most played games out right now (especailly on consoles), and Activision are beasts at marketing (until they over-do it and run their series in to the ground, which I can guarantee you will see happening to CoD in the next few years - just look at how many copyrights they filed). Activision isnt outdoing Capcom, they are outdoing everyone in sales between CoD dominating the FPS share and Blizzard dominating the MMO share. BF3 is poised to take back some of the market share in the next year, but Blizzards release schedule will make up for the losses until Activision gets a new series going.
Likewise, I’m not trying to beat you up either. Just giving you some insight on the inner workings, and I’ll be glad to answer any questions you might have =)
So uh, I haven’t read too much of this thread other than the first couple hundred posts, but…
I’m a PS3 gamer, I play AE almost exclusively, and have never played MvC3, and am looking to get UMvC3.
I have never played a GGPO game online so I don’t know what it’s like.
I connect to a wireless router than is connected to by four or five other computers in the same house at once.
Almost always will I have a lag-free (at least visually) game online when playing AE, as long as I’m playing North Americans (to be fair, even on “Any” region only those do ever join my matches)
Marvel 3 sounds/looks like a game that doesn’t seem fun on a more competitive level unless you’re playing with other competitive players, which (I assume) can only be found online. I don’t have the time to play offline matches with people, and considering my friends’ lack of enthusiasm for fighting games, that basically makes doing that a no-go.
After hearing the sentiments concerning MvC3’s shitty netcode (especially in conjunction with PSN) I’m seriously rethinking my decision to buy the game.
Is bad netcode going to be a total deal breaker for me?
I havent played AE, but MvC3’s netcode is not really any worse than Vanilla SF4.
It’s pretty subjective though. Online in my areas (of Florida and NY) I don’t run in to lag problems too much, but some people talk about every single match having unplayable lag and not being able to super interrupt other supers (even examples in this topic). I’ve read posts that explain horrible lag situations where I’ve seriously thought “I can count the amount of times that happens per week on 1 hand” and they say it happens to them 9/10 games… but those people have people agree with them. So there’s no way to say for sure…
But any non-GGPO game should be fairly similar, since they are using the same exact methods.
They are revamping the netcode from ground up for UMvC3, nobody knows what they have done and whether the game’s online will be better but currently online play for any fighting game is likely to be less than ideal. You just have to endure it like everyone does, the more you like to play high execution characters the more likely it is that online play will be a big issue.
to resume it quickly , netcode / online mode are still not high in capcom priority . This is the main problem , i understand they really focus on graphic and offline stuff but gesh 
sf4 was the limit in term of online quality but mvsc3 and probably umvsc3 are butchered ( online components are atrocious , worst matchmaking and lobby ever and very bad pr about spectator mode )
It’s a real shame the best hope for a good online new fighting game reside on a indie companies .
Is there anything the fighting community can do to force some ( Japanese ) developers to put more passion in their game online ?
Not buy the game and demand better online
I really want UMvC3 but I’m very salty about how Capcom is rushing this game out so quick after the first version was very rushed and incomplete.
It does not look like there fixing much about the game and according to Seth and Nitsuma, UMvC3 is rushed… so I’m gonna buy it used cause I still want it, I just don’t want my money going to Capcom
lol at the people who say mvc3 is playable online