I started playing in the days of Karate Champ and Yie Ar. No need to make an appeal to seniority or make the discussion hostile.
And let me make my position clear again, nothing will make a particularly acceptable online experience on consoles.
if you know the position we’re in, why are you giving the benefit of the doubt to capcom when they’ve failed to do this right for 10 games in 10 years?
capcom by itself in 10 years has never made a good net code for a modern game, just haven’t don it. You’re crazy if you keep trusting them to do it right!
completely utter bullshit.
afto legends = was a god like super turbo player, HDR world champion
snake eyes = HDR world champion
gamer bee = top 8 sf4
all of these people credit online to becoming good. In fact its already been proven that you can reach an incredibly high level online as long as the net code works properly. Since sf4 works pretty well overseas, those people can practice online because of the way its structured. Doesn’t work well for the US infrastructure though and Daigo even complains about how bad sf4 is in America in an interview which I would happily give if you want it.
lets not forget the countless other people who have improved their game via the internet on stable connections.
do you believe everything companies/governments say to you? because i have this great piece of land in Fukushima that I’d like to sell to you. Sure some people might be scared of this “radiation” nonsense but the government sais its safe so no biggie.
Glad I live in Japan. But wait! apparently Capcom isnt going to have UMVC3 at all at Tokyo Game Show next week even after its been playable at bunch of other game shows.
Oh well at least we have good internet.
Whatever they do for the UMVC3 connectivity, I hope it works. Current MVC3 connection (atleast on PS3) is terrible.
Nah skill confirmed it will be there and that the initial report was wrong
praise the lord mighty baby jesus made out of bacon! maybe there will be more than two games to play at the whole venue this year!
you better not be pulling my leg here lol
I can’t see the game slowing down in mvc3\sf4, there is no lag what are you guys talking about!!?
there is a style of net code called input delay. It simply works by delaying your inputs to keep the game in sync and prevent the game from “lagging”. While it may look smooth its actually the worst system you could ask for fighting games. Fighting games are ALL about reactions and when there is delay on everything, you can’t react to anything.
so lets put together a little math problem. 1 frame throw, 1 frame to tech a throw and 8 frames of input lag which feels right for sf4\mvc3
on frame #10, the opponent throws you
on frame #11, you input your tech throw
now account for 8 frames of input lag
on frame #19, your tech throw input registers but you get thrown anyway because your actually being thrown on frame # 11
so if you have 8 frames of input lag, and you need to tech your throw on frame #11, what frame do you need to hit the button?
11-8 = 3
you need to tech throw on frame #3 but your opponent didn’t try to throw you until frame #10 though? you mean, I had to be psychic to tech throws online?
you can repeat this input lag math problem TO anything in the game. Bad footsie can’t be punished properly, teching throws, AA-ing, punishing bad spacing, delayed attack strings etc… all the elements to fighting games CAN NOT be played properly. They just can’t. Furthermore, the amount of input lag you receive per second is different so for 1 math problem it might be 12frames of input lag and on the next second\s its 5frames! there is virtually no way to discern the difference.
As a community we’re super picky about which TVs we use for national tournaments because of “input delay” so why is that? its because everyone knows that its impossible to play with ANY lag, even worse when its random amounts input delay. If the community goes out of its way ON PURPOSE to get rid of input lag, why is it ok for mvc3\sf4 to have it? short answer, its not acceptable from the community POV. If you support mvc3\sf4 online, you’re basically saying its fine to play in input delay and 0 major tournaments are ran that way. God knows it would be cheaper for the organizers if they didn’t have to worry about what TVs people played on.
why does everyone go ape shit over GGPO?
GGPO uses a peer-to-peer topology to run a complete copy of your game for each player, transmitting controller inputs over the network to keep these copies in sync. Each player’s inputs are sent to their copy of the game without having to wait for their opponent’s to arrive over the network - taken from ggpo.net
GGPO doesn’t involve any input delay UNLESS you want it to do so. So lets looks @ a math problem with no input delay.
1 frame to throw, 1 frame tech throw, 0 frames of input lag
frame #10 opponent throws
frame #11 you tech the throw
account for 0 frames of input lag
you tech the throw!!!
offline timing is a factor with the GGPO style of net code, the math matches up. You can argue semantics all you want, you can’t really disprove the math and the way the tournament community runs their shit. We never use TVs that have input delay on purpose becuase it fucks up every aspect of offline play and for that very reason, it shouldn’t be used as the online component either.
ok so the fuck what, I like my input delay fuck you!
GGPO can do what mvc3\sf4 do online already. There is an input delay function where a tournament player can put it @ 0-1 frame and someone who likes input delay up the ass can crank it up to 9.
Let the user choose which system to run, Capcom needs to stop pushing it down our throat with the worst version possible.
I can combo all day regardless of input lag, this input delay net code is amazing!
combos are not the indicator of good net code. Hypothetically say you were playing on a 2000ms connection , from FL to japan its 300ms, and you had a ppad in your hand with combos already programmed into it. When you hit play on your ppad combo, the combo will just animate really late but still animate IF NO INPUTS WERE DROPPED due to the connection.
so you could be playing from here to neptune, literally, and if nothing was dropped it would still animate on neptune properly. Probably would take a while but it would still animate.
You can’t judge the strength of a net code solely by combos. If everything was done through muscle memory and no inputs were dropped, you would always land a combo. Its just that some of us use visual cues to react to combo timings which always requires a slight pause and with input delay, that never works out which is why I brought up the ppad example.
^^^^^this kind of comment should have a page in shoryuken or to be front page ( remove the swearing , of course ) . Im dead serious .
Way too much people don’t even know the problem and they can’t judge well the situation .
For 1 person like shoultzula , you have 25 to 100 players that don’t even know what mean input delay … T_T
Fighting community need some tutorial to explain in details the importance of the netcode , the impact this have on the gameplay and other things .
if we could listen again the wake up shoryuken podcast that talk about GGPO with Pounder should help the sirtuation too
Worst thing is, this is like…the fifth time that shoultzula has broken it down for the mouthbreathers. They’ll still fuck it up, too.
Yep,seriously amazing how they still don’t get it… Input delay and lag are the same yet different. Fools still say that they have perfect connections cause there shit doesn’t freeze…
Shoultzula is my hero though for fighting this fight as long as he has… I lost patience long ago.
-dime
japan is the problem. fix japan, problem fixed
how can you fix japan ?
idk, that one creator of Megaman was trying to do that, but realized it wasn’t going to happen. Its a solution though, just not thoroughly explained.
Only random gamefaqs posters think rollback is worse than input lag. Sucks for them. They don’t even play the game at a high enough level where the input delay would make a difference. “My dive kick, ABCS, BBCS, drill claw super comes out online and takes off 60 percent of your life cuz capcom loves me and i can block stuff so it’s good. I tried dat GGPO stuff but if its laggy they rewind you back in time all the time so laaayme.”
GGPO makes it so when you’re playing in a good connection that shit feels like offline. No having to readjust your inputs all the time for hit confirming and shit. Typical input delay you can like literally feel your character jumping and dashing at a slower speed even when the connection is good. Shit sucks, time for it to go. I’d rather have the rollback if the connection is really laggy than the game move slower any way. Good connection only very minimal to no visible rewinds.
Play moar 3S.
how bout just better and improved net code all around built of this fabled GGPO.
Here’s the thing- for a lot of players, input lag is just part of the game. I would gamble that 80% of people who play SF4 on a semi-regular or regular basis, play on HDTVs or monitors with noticeable input lag- that is, noticeable to older/more hardcore fighting game players.
Online lag is similar. It is the status quo, and despite the fact that fact that it is a relatively low standard, to many newer fighting game players, a change in netcode might sound like a scary disruption of that status quo. After all, what do they have it to compare to? It’s not like they were the Marvel 2 players of a few years ago who spent years playing the game on SDTVs and in arcades, and this is some sort of new port with new input lag. SF4 and MvC3 have existed with lag since their inceptions for many players. So with regards to that group of people, I’n not sure how you would expect them to know any better, as elitist as that may sound.
It’s like the evolution from SDTVs to HDTVs and DVD to Bluray, only in reverse- there were some who said they didn’t particularly notice the difference, and/or that they actually liked the older technology better, for whatever reason (full SD frame used with no letterboxing, shorter load times for regular DVDs, etc). How can you really argue with these people?
Bluff called.
http://www.zshare.net/audio/94307179b5bc2553/
There’s the episode. Point out the time where Ponder says GGPO netcode can’t be used for newer games.
Hint: you won’t find it.
I’m not sure how much longer you’re going to pretend like you’re not a hater. You’re now saying that Capcom should use a GGPO substitute that does the same thing, but not actually use GGPO. …OK…? Why not just use a modified version of GGPO, then?
Xesaie illustrates a paradox which came up the last time I posted in a thread like this, I think it was the “Skullgirls to use GGPO netcode” news post, back when the front page comment sections were actually tied to the forum.
He is convinced that Capcom etc. must have a good reason for not using GGPO’s netcode, or something similar- but in his insistence he proves why they have not. Despite Capcom’s poor track record (10 years of failures, as shoultzula put it), they can still make games that end up being very successful, despite their poor netcode(s); SF4, and MvC3 in particular. When people ask for improvements to the netcode, you have people like Xesaie who will vigorously defend Capcom’s decisions, thus justifying their decisions.
TL;DR- When you rally against Capcom improving their netcode, you prove correct the assumption that it is a secondary priority, and that what they currently have is fine.
Well that’s not what I was saying at all. My point is that the discussion is about netcode, not a particular brand or product… or should be anyways. The specificity makes me think its more about loyalty than it is about the real issues.
If this is a fandom gangbang by all means carry on, but if this is a serious discussion about netcode problems, then we need to talk about styles.
And yeah, Rollback is better if it works. For SF4, T6, MvC3, Soulcalibur 5, SFxT, and TTT2 they’ve pretty clearly said it won’t work. I just don’t get why people think they know better than experts. Sure they COULD be lying, but I just don’t see the gain for them. If its better and reasonable to implement, seems like they’d just use it. But I’m repeating myself.
The only reason rollback styles won’t work well with the current gen titles, is because every Japanese developer still sees online functionality of any kind as something to tack onto a finished product. The engine has to be designed to support rollbacks from the ground up, or the memory and processor requirements are insane.
GGPO netcode is by far the most well-known of it’s kind, especially for fighting games. Of what use is it to discuss a nameless hypothetical alternative? That point aside, a couple of posters have said specifically that they would be fine with some sort of netcode that was like GGPO if not the name-brand version.
People disagreeing with you =/= “fandom gangbang.” People like GGPO in particular because they use it, and it works well. The suggestions that it won’t work well in newer games tend not to sound very credible, as has been said often.
We are all repeating ourselves, at this point.
People think they know better than the experts because the experts aren’t necessarily the ones talking- I would wager Harada knows less about the mechanics of online gameplay than Ponder or most of the people with programming backgrounds who’ve said that GGPO should work in newer games if implemented correctly. On the other hand, there is clear evidence that GGPO does work, under the correct conditions.
Thirdly, Namco Bandai is using GGPO in that DBZ game mentioned earlier in the thread:
…and so this looks to me like a test-run of GGPO in a more graphically modern game. The implications of this are that Namco Bandai has enough interest to try out GGPO and see how it works, and subsequently that because GGPO hadn’t been tested, earlier comments that it wouldn’t work are dubious in retrospect. It wouldn’t work, so we’re going to use it? Or, we know it wouldn’t work, even though we hadn’t tried it, but now we are? You can understand why this may seem contradictory to some people, regardless of their level of technical knowledge about how online latency works.