Lot of questions on why X character isn’t on the list, so I’ll just make a separate thread on what saves them from being here. Discussion on the already listed 8 will continue here for the sake of organization.
Yeah, but not against those short pixies.
aw buktooth, now look what you started…
Alright! Another good thread about to get ruined. I say delete everything now and start over while it’s still not so bad…
the only thing i dont agree with is kyosuke and dan being better than ryo…thats weird to me…
im outi
Roberth
Shut up
A lot of people contesting Raiden’s placement on the list.
Raiden:
Pros:
-with a level 3, can do 8255 off of a low jab.
-farthest normal throw range in the game at 85 pixels (punch throw only). Very useful tool, more so than his SPD usually.
-Raiden is the only character in the game that can make good use of the Tech Throw Glitch without help from the opponent. Combined with his far throw range, he can make the glitch come into play more often than you would think.
-RCable command grab (there are many that aren’t due to too many conflicting special move inputs). Makes a good wake up, since his SPD grabs fast enough (3 frames) so that he can’t be thrown out of it before his “unthrowable time” goes away. His SPD is also mostly safe to opponents jumping away from it.
-has a useful mix up to his grab/super grab with low short into rekkas. If Raiden has a level 3 ready, he can get a lot of damage out of a right guess.
-rekkas easily combo off a jab/short, lead to big damage if a level 3 is ready. The headbutt is safe against many characters.
-his shoulder move (ready…go!) has more invincibility time than most anything. The only things that beat it in that category are Ryo’s and Haohmaru’s useless lv3 only supers. Safe at the right distances, can be used to beat supers and CC’s.
-His breath move leads itself to a crazy corner game. If you’ve seen my write up on Yuri, it’s similar to that but much better due to the move being +9 on block (!) and Raiden’s huge throw range. Also reaches farther (about the length of Raiden’s low jab before normal sized characters can crouch it) and hits lower than Yuri’s (shotos sized characters and up have to block it up close). If it hits, Raiden can juggle a lvl3 flame super if available.
-Raiden’s super grab has a lot of range and is mostly safe to opponents jumping out of it. Level 3 grab is the longest ranged grab in the game by 2 pixels.
-the flame super is a useful anti-air. Level 3 version is jugglable, which is where the bulk of Raiden’s potential damage comes from.
Cons:
-probably the worst ground game in the game. He has almost no useful ground moves of note. Decent sweep, and that’s about it. For most Raidens their ground game consists of trying to get a lucky roll, shoulder tackle, or RC body blow.
-no anti-air. Low fierce is garbage and has to be done realllllllllly early for it work, and even then it gets beat a lot. Flame super is only a threat at lv2 or higher, and the cumbersome input method makes it tough to pull out without anticipation.
-overall defense is probably the worst in the game also. In addition to having no anti-air, his ground moves are slow and and he doesn’t really have a reversal-type move to get out of sticky situations. He generally has to alpha counter if he has meter (Raiden usually spends most of his meter on alpha counters), or hope a random shoulder will work if he doesn’t.
-same horrible jump arc as Ryo. Unlike Ryo and Gief, Raiden’s jump ins are all pretty bad. Jump fierce and the splash have decent priority, but they require Raiden to be at a range that he has problems getting to due to his shitty jump arc.
-he’s too big. Raiden is the biggest character in the game, and as a result he can’t crouch under a ton of stuff such as Rock’s and Rugal’s standing roundhouses (!). Pretty much any low jump move can be an overhead on Raiden.
-though his close game is good, Raiden has the hardest time of any character getting into that range.
-his body blow -> head butt is punishable on block by most any fast super. Even many level 2’s can easily hit it for free.
-the tech throw glitch can be just as detrimental to Raiden as it is to the opponent. Since the opponent is mostly invisible, stuff like low jumps and overheads become especially hard to deal with.
Best Grooves:
C-Groove: Stored super lets him hit his breath super whenever the opportunity arises. Alpha counter abuse makes it much more realistic for him to get in. Access to RC grab and RC body blow.
N-Groove: Has the ability to juggle his flame super off of an alpha counter. Alpha counters and level 1/3 supers are still available. Run helps his ground game a little, low jump strong makes his defense a little better.
P/K-Grooves (tie): parry/JD help his ground game, and also helps with his lack of a anti-air/reversal. K-Raiden can be really random with his flame/720 supers, while P-Raiden generally has to save it for guaranteed situations. P-Raiden has an easier time getting in with parry though.
great raiden analysis. very fair. i still don’t think he’s bottom 8 though.
Ryo is too great only if more people knew haha
I want to add that jumping short is a sweet sweet option select jump’in.
oh yeah, level 3 crazy train (rush super) is one the best reason to use K groove. In addition to being one of THE most damaging super in the game, it also sets up option select at the end. With good JD’ing, even a level 1 K-Raiden can survive for quite a while (not saying anything about sakura as usual) and get off 2-3 crazy trains per round with jump’ short. I see raiden’s jumping short even scarier than yamazaki, because you’re looking at 70 percent damage, and you have a 1 in 3 chance of guessing right (720 > block, flame > jump, crazy train > everything else).
Ratio1BeatDown: Do tell.
Yes, Raiden does get a good mix up off of his jump in. Problem is, how often does Raiden make contact with his jump short? A player that knows how to fight Raiden will know jumps and rolls are pretty much the only things he has to look for. Raiden’s crappy jump arc doesn’t help matters at all.
As far as the crazy train super, I see it as pretty unnecessary except as an easy reversal. Here’s a breakdown of Raiden’s ghetto mix up:
720: beats anything, be it DPs, RCs, attacks, blocking, whatever. Only thing that avoids it is jumps.
flame super: beats anything, only thing that beats it is block or roll. Specifically used to counter jumps, though.
crazy train: beats anything, only thing that beats it is block, roll OR jump (since it’ll only hit once).
It’s an unnecessary mix up. Whatever avoids the 720, the flame will get and vice versa.
buk, you’ve got a thing for starting really interesting threads, no matter what subjects you cover.
still waiting on your balrog analysis…
im curious, but did you come up with your bottom 8 list just based on your observations in matches and you messing around with the characters, and/or through discussion with others?
well i was thinking about K-raiden only, so jumping in as bad as the rest.
The only reason I’d even put crazy train in there is becaues it just does THAT much damage. Also, the motion is easier 
ALSO, i think some a-hole characters like Sakura and Cammy can duck under the flame super, i’ll check again though.
im pretty sure some1 (maybe buk) pointed out in this thread that even small characters can’t duck Radien’s Flame breath.
They’ll know after MWC :lol:
The Cate runs shit.
Ryo does crazy damage on his uppercuts…stupid ryo.
Also buk, you didn’t mention about Raiden’s FP body splash, which has crazy priority, and his sweep has a deceptively long range. wait, you did mention his sweep…
Read his post more carefully. He talks about the splash and sweep.
Whoops, my mistake. Smaller characters can duck under Raiden’s flame super. However, the crazy train super still doesn’t counter anything that the 720 super won’t, so I still win! mwahahaha
Balrog:
Pros:
-Strong ground game:
-He has The Standing Fierce. Fast, HUGE range, very good damage. Arguably one of the best normal moves in the game, Balrog can dominate characters with this move alone.
-Very fast walking speed. Heavily compliments his Standing Fierce.
-Very good roll. Among the 2nd tier of good rolls in the game.
-Lots of priority on his jumping roundhouse/fierce (is there any noticable difference?).
-High priority sweep, can link a Gigaton Blow if connected.
-The Dash Straight is basically a forward-moving version of his Standing Fierce. Very annoying if spaced correctly, even more annoying if RCed.
-The Dash Upper is a near perfect anti-air since it basically heat-seeks you. No RC needed. Can also juggle a CC afterwards if it connects.
-Strong headbutt is another good anti-air with upper body invul. Jab headbutt is a good anti-ground move with lower body invul.
-Turn punches are a good way to get in from afar, especially when charged up. They’ll trade with most anything (heavily in Balrog’s favor obviously) and leave Balrog at +2 when blocked.
-The level 3 only Gigaton Blow is most likely the best super in the game. Tied with Rugal for the second most damaging super in the game (unless you count Shin Akuma’s chop or Bison’s super getting 9 hits on certain characters), it’s also great for as a utility super: anti-airs for most of the hits, punishes a ton of things on block, instantly covers about half the screen. It’s the only super that can successfully punish full screen jab fireballs. It even has juggle potential!
Cons:
-Balrog is heavily conflicted by being a charge character. He can choose to work his ground game and utilize his fast walking speed and Standing Fierce, or he can choose to try to land his supers and actually do real damage. He can’t really do both. If Balrog is charged, his only real means of moving forward while keeping the charge (and therefore, keeping the threat of his super) is by rolling. He can dash or do a Dash Straight to give himself some time to charge, but since those are his only real options, they’re easily countered by an alert opponent.
-He dies horribly to any short character, which there are a ton of. His formerly formidable ground game is reduced to… sweeps. Some people suggest using standing roundhouse, but it has the exact same range as the sweep.
-Without being charged, Balrog doesn’t do much damage. Sure, his fierces do good damage, but he can’t really punish big openings hard at all. Even with a charge, he doesn’t do a lot of damage. His most consistent combo on a crouching character is 2 low jabs into a low rush, which does an awe-inspiring 1400 damage.
-He’s weak to roll cancels. Even the mighty Standing Fierce doesn’t beat RC attacks like Iori/Kyo rekkas or Sak hurricanes. And if he rolls through them, what can he do? He just lost his horizontal charge. The best he can do is usually just a fierce.
-He’s weak to good rolls. His fierce and his dash straight are both counterable by rolls, and since those two moves pretty much sum up Balrog’s whole ground game, getting countered by a roll is very likely to happen.
Best Grooves:
C-Groove: Able to sit on a Gigaton Blow and wait out the match. Roll and dash are also Balrog’s best movement options. Level 2 super is decent also is you manage to land it on the ground (ahem… roll super).
K-Groove: Dash Straight into JD is big nuisance for characters that can’t crouch it. K-Groove also gives Balrog a few chances at landing a random Gigaton Blow, which is one of the scarier things to worry about in CvS2.
A-Groove: CCs somewhat solve his problem of not being able to do damage without a charge. Fairly flexible CCs also, though he usually has to land them with random activates.
:: Realizes :: N-King the worst character in the game…
:: Epiphany :: OMG! What have I been doing to myself!
Excuse my ignorance but I dont see how n-king is the worst in the game… and thats after playing her for a short wile. Maybe Im blessed :bluu:
lol this thread is funny.
I agree that a sum of balrogs cons are due to roll cancel, but it seems like a wise Balrog uses his throws.
I was sparring with a friend yesterday and my Ryu had a hard time all around with Balrog. f.mk st.hp cr.mp hurricane kick (even those tricky one that I can use flying at or away from the opponent.) >>> st.hp
Pretty much if I raised a fuss, st.hp from balrog shut me. If I try to defend, here comes a throw. A decent strat and effective too.
To answer…
Dhalsim