Who REALLY is the worst character in the game?

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
1

Kyosuke is thought to be by the VAST majority as the worst character in the game pretty much since the game came out, but CvS2 has changed quite a bit since then. I play random select more than anybody I know, so I’ve gotten quite a bit of hands on time with a lot of the crap characters. Where do the worst characters stack up now?

Kyosuke:

Pros:
-Can be quite the nuisance if he corners you
-Actually gives P and K grooves a lot of trouble (if he corners them)
-Gives Cammy trouble
-MIGHT give Guile trouble
-Really solid anti-airs
-Good dash and walking speed
-His ground fireball is one really useful tool that no other character has
-His jumping forward kick is hard to uppercut
-His air fireball is a good uppercut deterrent
-RC electric thingie is surprisingly buff. It LOOKS totally unsafe, but it puts a crapload of blockstun on the opponent. Jab version is only -2, while fierce is -4!
-Low roundhouse, standing fierce and low forward are all good moves
-Level 1 fireball super is a good, kinda sorta safe wake up
-jab jab short into level 1 launcher super can do from 3800 (knockdown) to 4800 (pop up + set up if near corner). Actually one of the most damaging level 1 combos in the game. Also gives you almost half a bar back.
-fierce into level 1 launcher, then the combo does 5472. That’s Chun Li-esque damage!
-Jab jab short into gang bang super does 7000ish. Pretty good!
-C-Groove Kyosuke can do level 2 super into level 1 launcher, then do ton more hits for 7500ish! 8500ish if you do fierce into super!

Cons:
-Dies to most any top-tier char (and a lot of mid tiers) in a roll groove absolutely for free. C-Sagat vs Kyosuke is just ugly.
-Without supers, does dick for damage.
-His jumping moves do LESS than dick for damage.
-His midrange game is severely lacking; he basically has to rely on just low forwards to poke and low roundhouse for whiff punishing or to catch people moving.
-His close game isn’t too great either; his only move that gives substantial frame advantage is his close jab, and most characters can crouch that. This means it’s hard for him to set up counter hits, which in turn means it’s really difficult for him to get any throws.
-His one decent counter hit set up I could find does- you guessed it!- dick for damage.
-He doesn’t really get going until he corners you.
-Lots of worthless specials.
-As of right now, his df+roundhouse launcher is worthless also. I can get 3500 damage out of it if I can hit it though.

Best Grooves:

C-Groove: Constant access to supers, dash. Crazy level 2 cancels.
A-Groove: Real anti-air CC, also guaranteed CC off of lightning upper thingie (corner only iirc).
N-Groove: Constant access to supers, run is a little better for pushing people to the corner.

King:

Pros:
-Damaging corner combos that give a lot of meter
-Very solid anti-airs
-Very solid jump attacks/air to air
-Strong low jump game
-One of the best rolls in the game
-Her double fireball is a semi-useful tool that no other character has, gives K-Groove some problems
-RC roundhouse tornado kick is quite buff. Covers a lot of distance quickly, knocks down, sets up juggles in the corner, +0 on block makes it totally even afterwards. Think of it as a different version of Sakura RC hurricane.
-High priority sweep
-Punch throw sets up a ton of crap
-Strong corner game

Cons:
-Very weak midrange game; she has nothing with any range, so has to rely on RC fireballs and rolls. In other words, reliant on risky stuff.
-Outside of low jump shenanigans and wake up, it’s nearly impossible to land her supers.
-Some VERY pathetic normal moves. Her one decent move (sweep) has no range. A lot of them have no conceivable use whatsoever (standing strong anyone?).Slide is really slow and risky. Anti-airs are good though.
-Weak to rolls.
-Practical combos can only be done at point blank range. No practical links without counter hit.
-No reliable anti-air supers.

Best Grooves:
N-Groove: Her low jump game is one of her biggest strengths, also her most reliable way of landing her super. Run makes her fireballs and double fireballs better as she can run after them and get some frame advantage out of them, letting her keep initiative and push you to the corner.
A-Groove: anti air CC, guaranteed CC in the corner off of pretty much any combo. Can CC from a sweep but it’s REALLY hard.
C-Groove: Only remaining groove with a roll. Lv2 trapshot super to roundhouse trapshot is decent.

Next: Ryo, Haohmaru

2

He can activate from anywhere off of jab Lightning Upper.

Jab Lightning Upper, walk forward a little, activate, d+f+Rh(upward kick), super jump, [short x2, strong]until corner, in corner, qcf+k, etc.

I mess around with random characters alot also. IMO, Kyosuke is underrated. Nobody uses him and they have this mental note that he sucks instead of actually trying him.

But I suppose next one in line for worst would be in no order:
Hoahmaru, Ryo, King, Nakoruru.

I would put Ryo before Hoahmaru in terms of who’s better though.

3

I always thought Haohmaru was really bad, but Eddie Lee got 2nd at Texas Showdown with him and I’m really interested to see what he does with the character. The character has a couple gimmick tricks, but they run out pretty fast.

4

i really don’t see how Ryo is one of the worst, i’d say he’s the top tier worst character in the game. If you are like me and haven’t touch a kof game other than 98 and all you see are people who play cvs2 play capcom characters, you’ll have trouble with him.

K-Ryo imo is the best ryo. You don’t get rushed down too easily.

C-Ryo is tough too. if he has meter and if he is in the appropriate distance, he fireballs you, you are trapped sort of.

5

so u think dan is better than nak!? i definitely don’t think nak is low tier. she’s low mid at least. she has frame advantage on a lot of her normals, and is a really good battery. her only weakness is her vitality. but if she was any stronger she’d be cvs1 nak all over again.

6

Hmm… I’m waiting to see what Buk has to say about Vice these days…

7

Ryo isn’t bad at all IMO, low-mid. Nak isn’t that bad either, I think K Nak is good if you have some jd skills.

8

Re: Re: Who REALLY is the worst character in the game?

Depends on groove. lol
Dan’s only problem is his fireball. His hurricane kick isn’t too bad. His jumping in short hurricane beats Blankas cr. fierce. Even if its blocked you get decent frame advantage iirc. AA cc, ground cc, corner cc. Good lvl 2 cancels. Good normals. Good vitality.

9

ryo as one of the worst? wtf?

the only reason why i dont think hes used as much is because hes THE ryu clone from snk.

no reason to really use him when you can use ryu, seeing this is a capcom game in all.

so why is he so bad beside the fact that theres no japanese players dedicated to using him?

10

Another reason why I like CvS2: Even the “worst” characters in the game have their strengths. God bless Capcom.

There’s no way that Nakoruru is near the bottom five in the game. She can prevent people from jumping altogether with her surprisingly strong anti-air games. I use her in N and K all the time.

I started looking into using Kyosuke after I got tired of getting annoyed by him as the CPU. He’s actually a pretty fun character to mess around with, even though most of his normals are crap.

I’ve seen a few King players, and they use her quite effectively. That double fireball is really something, and it’s hard to jump up against her.

I’ve seen even more Ryo players, don’t tell me he’s at the bottom, because you can’t beat his small jump-ins and his unfair-priority dp. Slow fireball, too.

Now, if you want my opinion on the worst characters in the game, I can run off a few. There’s Sagat, Cammy, Blanka…

11

Might wanna ask Cole about Vice. He’s got a good Vice and was telling me about how he gives Sakura and Chunli a hard time. Mentioned something about maybe using her at Evo :lol:

EDIT: oh yeah, one minor thing about King’s double fireball…she’s not the only one with a double fireball, Joe’s got one too Ora Ora.

12

in my area, characters i see no one play somewhat decently

[im pretty much the only person who knows how to RC also]

balrog, benimaru, dan ,evil ryu, haohmaru, joe, king, kyosuke
morrigan - dont be offended buktooth :smiley:
nak, vice, yun, yuri

IMO worst characters
1 dan - dont even know how to play him, whats the good groove?
2 kyosuke - LOL, he doesnt even do dmg, when you hit them, they gain life
3 king - s. fk is anti air and her c. mk into the backflip and do the jump kicky special thingy, i dont know, cant play her for shit
4 yun - MUST USE RC TO WIN, cant do any real dmg
5 yuri - good s. fk, double uppercuts do OKAY damage
6 benimaru - dont know what im supposed to do besides activate and pound fp
7 vice - umm, good rc’s? terrible supers, wtf am i supposed to do with her?

13

Oops. I know I put wrote that Haohmaru and Ryo were next, but I’m gonna change that to Dan and Haohmaru instead.

Dan:

Pros:
-Air Gale kicks give Dan arguably the best air mobility in the game. For example:
-Air roundhouse gale kicks make Dan one of the best runaway characters.
-Air short gale kick is fast, high priority and knocks down. Will usually give Dan frame advantage depending on where it was blocked, but will most always be safe. Can juggle supers afterwards if it hits in the corner. Also alters the trajectory of his jump in a really good way. Gives non-low jump grooves a bootleg low jump.
-Back tigerknee short gale kicks builds meter really really fast.
-Forward tigerknee short gale kicks cover ground really quickly and leave Dan at a large frame advantage if blocked.
-Forward tigerknee forward gale kicks cover a HUGE amount of ground in the blink of an eye. Think Blanka fierce ball fast. Leaves Dan at +0ish if blocked. Also sets up corner juggles if hit.
-Versatile and damaging CCs.
-Surprisingly enough, the fastest released fireball in the game (unless you count Evil Ryu). This makes Dan’s fireball very useful in midrange footsies and can also be used in combos like jab jab short fireball.
-His standing far fierce has surprising priority.
-His low short goes really far. About one pixel shorter than his low forward. Great for poking, especially in a run groove.
-That said, Dan has one of the strongest midrange games of all the “weaker” characters. He has the (RCed) fierce fireball, shoto low forward and low roundhouse, and the aforementioned fierce and short.
-Incredibly buff cross up forward. Leads to some stupid hard to block cross up set ups.
-High priority jump roundhouse, works very well with low jumps.
-Jumping short is an overhead on bigger characters, AND buffers into air short gale kick. Doesn’t combo, but it makes the overhead safe and lets Dan keep the momentum.
-In addition to that, early jumping short on tall characters is difficult to uppercut, then buffer to short gale kick to make it safe.
-RC uppercut is perfect anti-air, obviously.
-Already mentioned, but the corner juggles off of gale kicks. C-Groove gets good level 2 cancels and A-Groove Dan gets a guaranteed CC.
-Level 2/3 fireball supers are totally safe if blocked. In fact, level 3 gives Dan +1.

Cons:
-Forward tigerknee gale kicks require a lot of practice to be able to control them well.
-Does little damage without meter.
-Requires good footsies to be able to use Dan well on the ground.
-Nothing particularly abuseable aside from runaway gale kicks.
-Difficult to maintain momentum on opponents that aren’t cornered.
-No practical link combos without counter hit… but Dan’s b&b combos all happen to be jab jab short xx special/super anyway.
-Has problems against other keep away characters.

Best grooves:

A-Groove: Good CCs, guaranteed CCs off of corner gale kicks. Non low jump groove gives access to (much much MUCH easier) tigerknee gale kicks.
C-Groove: Good level 2 cancels in the corner, level 2 fireball super is useful in general.
N-Groove: Only remaining roll (cancel) groove. Run supplements his ground game well, low jump roundhouse is actually pretty buff.

Haohmaru:

Pros:
-Strongest ground game of all the “weaker” characters due to a good normal move set.
-2 frame low jab, and arguably the highest priority low jab in the game. Long reach also.
-Standing strong has huge range, also high priority.
-Low strong is a good ranged low poke.
-Standing fierce… does a lot of damage/stun/guard bar.
-Standing roundhouse is fast, high priority and moves Haohmaru forward. Also keeps opponents at just the tip of Haohmaru’s standing strong range.
-Jumping forward kick is a good cross up that is hard to block in certain set ups.
-Jumping fierce is a very good all purpose jumping move: air to air, air to ground, high priority. Also does a lot of damage and is an overhead in low jump grooves.
-Both of his throws set up a lot of stuff, particularly the kick throw.
-Very good dash.
-Large jump arc (though some may consider this a bad thing)
-RC uppercut is once again, perfect anti air.
-Good anti-air CC, semi-decent anti-projectile CC. Ground CCs do a lot of damage.

Cons:

-Tremendously worthless set of specials, including the worst fireball in the history of fighting games.
-Even MORE worthless supers, which have next to zero utility.
-No anti-air super.
-Unless you’re magically landing standing fierces or supers, Haohmaru never does much damage. Elaborated below:
-No real combos besides short short uppercut, and that doesn’t do much damage anyway.
-Impossible to land his supers (cleanly) besides point blank short short super. The combo also does pitiful damage until Haohmaru gets level 2 or 3.
-Since he has no practical combos outside of point blank range, he has no scary counter hit combos to speak of. This makes it hard for Haohmaru to get opponents to stop mashing, which in turn makes it really hard for him to land throws on people.
-Standing fierce is near-impossible to land on anybody good. Also tremendously risky to throw out since you can super it for free on block.
-Much too reliant on guard breaking an opponent. And if he does get the guard break, 99% of the time he’ll only get a fierce.
-All his long ranged moves are easy to punish if whiffed.
-He’s much too straight-forward. You watch out for standing strong, you keep the threat of random fierce in the back of your mind… and that’s pretty much all you have to look for.

Best Grooves:

A-Groove: Somewhat patches up his inability to land a super. Anti-air CC helps a lot, and the threat of random ground CCs allow him to get some throws in. Also 10000 times safer to just throw out at random than his supers.
P-Groove: Parry gives him opportunities to actually land his fierce, also makes him much more of a threat when up close. Also supplements his ground game well.
K-Groove: Just defend helps his ground game quite a bit more than rolls, RCs and JD. Raged fierces are scary and do a lot of guard bar.

14

Note : This thread isn’t directed to anyone.

Haohmaru low tier?

Maybe it’s because I play him in K. Somehow i need him in K.

I personally feel that some people just don’t know how to play him. You poke, and you poke somemore. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t have a good combo that starts with C.LK. He has his S.MK into Heavy Gougetsuzan for close range punish.

His heavy slash is over rated, yet under rated by people (huh???). If people are baiting you, don’t get baited. Sounds simple? Who can punish a blocked Heavy Slash at heavy slash distance? A discussion about how a heavy slash is too slow is useless, it all depends on how well you read your opponent. if you guess he isn’t going to roll or RC something, HS. It’s not so slow that people can see it coming a mile away. And

We don’t have to go to basics here. A lot of characters have good anti air. Haohmaru has an average one. So let’s skip that. He doesn’t have a good, comboable fireball, so let’s skip that. but what he does have, are pokes that should be used over and over again. The way a Haohmaru should poke should put non-psychic people in fear because it is relentless. In K, when you trap someone in the corner, you poke. When you aren’t Poking, you are tapping back. With these two combined, you will have occasional JDs in between pokes that lead to more pokes. And you poke and poke and poke. When someone gets too near, you hop back. And Poke. If they turtle, you WALK forward slowly, and you poke some more.

Poke with what? With what was mentioned. S.MP. S.HP. the occasional S.HK. Short jump HS. It’s the pressure that counts. It’s rushdown without the Rushdown.

Anything comes your way to push you away, JD it. Tell them you’re standing rooted at that spot and you ain’t movin’.

The key to this all is intelligent poking. You aren’t ryu going in for LKLKLKMKFIREBALL. You aren’t Geese going in for you Guard crush combos. You aren’t Rolento doing KKK MP C.LK C.MK.

You are Haohmaru. He moves for no one. That’s why HIS face is on K Groove.

OK I’m bringing the rest of this into Haoh’s own thread, I’m wasting space here and I’m not really contributing strats, but I’m just here to let you know he isn’t low tier, even based on priority , life, frame advantage etc.

15

Haohmaru suffers the same issues as Vega, namely a lack of quick, reliable damage.
Given that he also lacks Vega’s footspeed, quick moves, and range…

Yes, Haoh can give people fits by poking, but if you hit Sagat with like 3 strongs and make him block a few more, then he hits you with random fierce XX super, he’s back on top.
Worse yet, if someone hits Haoh with any decent damage early on, he’s not coming back very easily. If Haoh’s normals did block damage or something, he’d be good, but as it is, he can’t keep people from just blocking.
Lacking frame advantage hurts, too. Simply put, he has no real throw/counter-hit setups that are actually dangerous. He’s easy to get away from. I’d wager that 90% of the cast can get away with hitting Haoh with like 2 combos, then hide in the corner and Roll away when Haoh gets close enough to be a threat. Which isn’t Haoh’s gameplan anyhow.

If Haoh had actual combos of note, then he’d be a much better character. If he had any substantial frame advantage, he’d be better.
As it is, he’s a second rate Vega with a fierce that does L1 super damage. Whoop-de-do.

16

Haohamaru has one good throw setup: meaty c.foward XX fake fireball then throw :smiley:

Also for Dan, I think his standing fierce and close standing fierce are very underrated. Close standing fierce is a very good counterhit setup. Knock someone down, do meaty c. short then hit towards+fierce. You can mix that up between a throw and a counterhit fierce just by altering the timing a bit. Another try is jump short into stand fierce. Sometimes, you can do counterhit fierce, c.foward into super, but that link is very tight.

Yes, I played Dan a lot. It was the only way to encourage people to play me in UCLA :confused:

17

Vice isn’t exactly the best of the bunch, but, I don’t think she deserves to be in this topic. I think her ‘pros’ benefit her greater than others (such as Dan and Kyosuke) to be considered beyond bottom of the barrel.

While I will agree with most that she does have one of the weakest supers in the game, she also has one of the best, Lvl1 specifically (HCBx2 K). Actually, I’d say that it’s better in some situations than a Lvl3.

Vice also has good evasion tactics. She has decent air control (QCB + P air) to deter projectiles and force her opponent’s attacks to whiff, pending. Crouching medium goes under all ground based projectiles (including supers) sans Athena, Mai/Guile’s LP/MP, and general LP projectiles.

Keep in mind that I’m just mentioning some of the things that people may not know or tend to forget about Vice that could elevate their game with her. I’ll be in Cali next week…maybe I’ll run into Cole and we can trade some Vice tips and talk about the NBA Finals :p. I also heard Buktooth fiddled around with Vice a bit. BTW, I read this with the conclusion that Buk would eventually come to a decision as to who’s the worst character in his opinion. I’m wondering if he still thinks it’s Kyosuke.

PS: I also read Nako as bottom tier in this topic, but I also read awhile back, that she’s really good against ClawVega. Not really sure if the former outweighs the latter in this case. Someone help me out on it, since I don’t know jack about Nak.

18

Blanka nuff said

19

The question for Haoh becomes : Why are you close enough for sagat to hit you in the first place?

20

why dont you use some of these strategies next time Eddie Lee waltzes into your state and rapes you all.