why do people sleep on her?
lmao @ the shit I can’t believe you’re writing. :lol:
Sup Som!
I think anyone who’s seen Vice’s CC agree that she’s a weaker bison in that respect. The problem with Vice is that she builds meter very slowly, and if you can’t RC then you’re forced to run away with her all day. Luckily she is quite mobile and if you have some good reaction people wouldn’t want to chase after you (random slashs).
What I like :
Solid mid range game
good antiairs
Easiest high count CC to do (for me)
Great mix up game on people with no good wake-ups
Jumping jab/short > slash kicks is nice and safe
Crouching fierce
What I don’t like :
No good pokes out side of standing strong and forward
One of the slowest meter builder
Can’t get in on people outside of well placed shoulder or dashes
I think in a turtle game like CvS2 Vice’s mobility definitely takes her out of the low tier and into um…lower middle tier. If you can run away from Sagat and Blanka enough then you have a chance (no one can run away from Cammy and Vice ain’t that good against Bison from my experience). If you can RC you’ll never worry about wake-ups and fireballs.
to Rokiseph : what do you use as antiair for Haoh outside of JD? Crouching fierce is unreliable against Sagat, so I dunno what you mean by Sagat can’t get in on Haoh. Can’t C Sagat just jump roundhouse all day with airblocking?
I thinkk N is Vices best groove. I think I may play N Vice one of these days.
hi MCTek
I’ll answer your Q at the haoh thread 
i have played Vice in C and K, her BnB actually does build quite some meter i think… plus she has ticks into super… not that wow… but atleast she can pressure with them and ppl will jump away when youre raged… when youre in C you can just dont use the super… unless theyre asking for it =)
and she can get in, jump and then qcb+k will get her closer without that much harm, its hard to JD and parry so that isnt a problem… and her command grab throws your opponent in the air, giving you the time to follow them to where they are
IMO, N or A Vice is high mid tier. Out of all my “not tourney characters” (and I have a lot), Vice is by far my best. In fact, I think if I give her a few more weeks of practice she can make the transition fairly easily. She has a lot of good match ups with the top tier, and is a heavy momentum character on par with Kyo and Iori. I can probably start a whole thread about her later after I’m done with this one.
Zangief:
Pros:
-1 frame SPD. Not only is it the only 1 frame ground move in the game, it’s also the command grab with the largest range. Jab SPD reaches 107 pixels (a lot farther than any super grab except for Raiden’s), strong and fierce reach 96 and 86 pixels, respectively. Jab SPD goes far enough so that you can do some pretty crazy ticks with it, like 3 jabs then SPD (!) or even a fierce into SPD.
-1 frame double suplex. Nevermind what I just said about the SPD being the only 1 frame move. This is the most damaging command grab in the game (unless you count Iori/Todo/Rock/Yun’s combo grabs), and also has the best combination of range and damage; All versions of this move reach 98 pixels, and the roundhouse version does 2900 damage. Also leaves Gief close enough to the opponent for another mix up.
-1 frame grabs offer a lot of benefits:
-You cannot get hit out of them unless it’s an invincible move (grabs RCs though), meaning you can wake up with them or empty jump and grab. Wake up grab is a very powerful tool, as it gives Gief the second strongest wake up game of all next to Honda. You pretty much can’t pressure Gief after knocking him down. If you’re anywhere near him you run the risk of getting grabbed. If you try to jump up/cross up you can get lariated. You just have to stay at a safe distance and make him block something from afar as he gets up.
-Since you can’t be hit out of a 1 frame grab, you can also interrupt poke strings with them if they’re in range. We’ve all seen the local scrub Gief player who mashes 360s any time somebody gets remotely near them, and it’s actually a decent tactic that forces people to play differently against them.
-You get a free grab on a lot of otherwise unpunishable moves like Sagat’s and Guile’s level 2 hotfoot/kick supers.
-On the ground, Gief has The Low Fierce. Huge range, lots of damage, also has a ton of active hitting frames. People who try to punish the whiff will often walk into the still extended fierce.
-Lots of good air to ground moves. Jumping straight up fierce beats most anything that isn’t invincible.
-Low jump fierce goes really far and is difficult to uppercut. Very strong low jump game in general.
-RC lariats are good anti air and also useful on the ground. Combined with 1 frame grabs gives him a solid defense. Hard to punish if whiffed also since he can just move back.
-FAB has crazy range at 116 pixels. That’s just past the max range of Gief’s low short/forward/roundhouse. All levels have the same range, so you can get a lot of utility out of level 1 FABs.
-Jumping knees have a lot of priority (nothing like A3 and before days though) and stay out for most of the jump.
-Anti-air super is buff at level 2 or 3.
Cons:
-Against most of the top-tier (and lots of mid-tier), Gief gets kept out pretty easily. And unless he corners you (pretty tough to do), he generally doesn’t do a whole lot of damage to you even if he does get in.
-Slow walking speed, worst dash ever.
-Whiffed grabs will totally get Gief killed. He eats a whole jump in combo if an opponent jumps out of a grab attempt.
-Jab SPD doesn’t do nearly enough damage. Neither do any of his non-super grabs, for that matter. The risk/reward on the grabs isn’t good enough.
-Without the threat of level 2/3 anti-air super, Gief doesn’t really have much to keep you from jumping away from him. His only tick grab that has a mix up is low jabs. He can do low jabs then sweep if you try to jump out, but if he guesses wrong he’s pushed out and has to work his way back in again.
-He’s too big. He can’t crouch under a lot of important moves, namely Sagat’s standing fierce, Guile’s backhand and Sakura’s roundhouse hurricane. The former two really put a hurting on Gief.
-Until you corner the opponent, it’s really hard for Zangief to keep momentum on anybody. Most of his throws put the opponent all the way across the screen except for his double suplex, which unfortunately switches sides with the opponent.
-Without RC, his anti-air options are kind of lacking. He especially has problems with max range jump ins and low jumps.
-Gief’s preferred tick, standing/crouching short, isn’t even safe at -5. That’s right, his SHORTS are punishable on block.
Best Grooves:
K-Groove: Run and low jump is vital to Gief. Air JD makes it easier for Gief to get in, ground JDs pretty much guarantee SPDs if close enough. Raged Gief does a lot of damage. Gief can play very reckless in this groove, which is basically how he must be played.
N-Groove: Run and low jump, roll helps a bit too. RC lariats make his anti-air game really strong, also helps his ground game a lot. Lots of level 1 FABs to use.
P-Groove: Low jump. Parrying Gief can be difficult to keep out.
Ok, that’s 6 characters. I wonder if I should do 2 more to make it an even 8 or just analyze everything and decide on a worst character already.
Buktooth: I would really like to know what your Vice does against Bison. That matchup is pretty much the sole reason why I gave up playing Vice in tournies.
Why Beni?!
I don’t think Beni deserves to be in this list at all.
Whenever I see people playing Beni, I don’t see them using his most annoying tactics. Whenever Beni is on my squad, I try to make it a point to play him as annoyingly as possible. In short, I just don’t think he gets used properly.
I’ll just throw out some stuff that I used(don’t really play much anymore) to keep Beni alive a little longer and to generally annoy the hell out of some characters.
[Typical Beni Shit]
BnB: low short x3 XX Knee -everyone knows this by now
Low forward - I think people pretty much know to look for this now, but its still a good poke for him. Sweep is still good too.
Toward + Forward - Soccer Kick. Still a decent way for getting in on people who just “sit there.” IIRC Beni has the advantage if this is blocked. This is pretty much Benimaru 101 but if Soccer Kick is blocked you can low short into Knee right after. Or better yet, you can RC Knee. You could even Soccer Kick again if they do nothing. Or you can always DP if you think they’ll swing.
Jump short - crosses up, combos into BnB
[Things that I NEVER see]
OK. Sometimes I think that the way I play Beni is totally original. I’m sure this isn’t the case cause James Chen wrote up some Beni shit that was pure gold awhile back. But I NEVER see people doing shit like this:
low strong - is this the forgotten normal for Beni? It sets up for so much.
low strong XX jab fist Since Beni doesn’t do much damage anyway, why not try and keep the opponent blocking? I NEVER see anyone doing low strong into jab fist. Medium size charactars cannot duck the jab fist and it pushes them away as well.
Most people just go into robot mode and wham on low short into knee when they could just as well get the opponent to block low strong into jab fist.
OK. why low strong into jab fist?
Because if the opponent is dumb enough to keep getting hit by it, it sets up for more shit. Low strong XX jab fist then RC Knee!
Next time you pick Beni, try and get opponent to block low strong XX jab fist like three times and see how they run.
And it doesn’t have to start with low strong either. Low jab links to low strong right?
Fuck it! low jab, low strong XX jab fist.
Or low jab x2, low strong, jab fist!
Hell, cross-up short, low jabx2, low strong XX jab fist.
Make them eat it all day long. If you think they’ll swing, RC Knee or DP their limb.
[jump roundhouse] - Still his best jump in. I use jump roundhouse for straight up jumping too. I NEVER see people using jump roundhouse. I barely see people using his DP for aint-air! He has one. USE IT!
[low short, standing short XX RH DP] - Knocks down as opposed to typical BnB. I like to mix it up w/ this.
Best groove by far is A but I think people know this. Land your CC then hop over their body 3 times. Too funny.
Hmm. I guess I’ll just go ahead and order my worst characters. I decided to make it bottom 8, even though I’ve only analyzed 6 characters so far. I got clout like that. I’m also going to list the characters by (IMO), their strongest grooves.
#8: K-Zangief
#7: C-Balrog
#6: A-Dan
#5: K-Raiden
#4: C-Kyosuke
#3: K-Ryo
#2: A-Haohmaru
and the weakest character in the game is…
#1: N-King
Sorry Rokiseph.
Discussion on why each character placed where they did next.
hahaaaa!
It’s A-Haoh, I don’t mind!
Anyway it’s nice to know I’m using the 8th worst character seriously.
but i’ll be waiting for the discusiion hee, it’s all good.
A-Dan almost made me laugh.
C,P,S,N,K-Yun has me rolling on the floor. Of all the characters and grooves I hate him in almost all grooves the most.
raiden is a beast! i have to disagree. fuck it. i love rocking people with him.
shit man i no what your saying k raiden is a demon son. buk i have to disagree with that rank.
I think yuri is worse than zangief
Ratio 4 K Zangief?!?!?!
I like your analysis on Zangief btw.
I want to play Ed Ma again. Where’s he from?
Aw , Rog is there /=. YEah i agree he sucks a lot.
WTF? WHere do u ppl get Rog = sucking? He’s amazing in C.