Who Plays KOF The Best?

Current Fighting Games King of Fighters
521

@Emil

Say, sorry to bother you man, but what facts have you given? I mean, have you provided any evidence of anything to the Japanese apparently being better? No disrespect man, but… You’re just kinda tossing all of what he’s said away without providing your own facts to why something is good besides having seen something else. I kind of agree, more Japanese and Juarez should fight. Still though, the fact that the Juarez beat one of the best Japanese players is pretty cogent. I mean, how many people are lesser than Bata in Japan? Probably not too many and the fact that he showed up and got defeated by Juarez shows quite a bit in comparison to what’s been stated.

Plus, it seems like a hasty generalization (that’s a fallacy) to state that the Japanese are automatically better. The reason for them being better is cause they played the games that they do, they help each other out, and they go to the arcades more than American players do. Japanese don’t seem too big in KOF compared to Juarez from my understanding, which is why they’re probably less better (Not to say that they are less better, but so far if you look at statistics, it leans towards Juarez).

Now, I must ask, what evidence can you provide that Japanese IS better than Juarez? If you can provide this without having a flawed or fallicious argument, I might be more inclined to believe you. I’m not saying Geese’s points are rock solid, but he gave more reason and put forth more valid information. I’m not saying what you’re stating is false, but I’m asking you to put forth some facts or information. Instead, it seems as if you’re trying to point out things in Geese’s argument without giving your own information.

Also, I must ask. What makes you a qualified authority? I must make sure of this because if you’re unqualified, there’s no room to speak. I won’t provide forth much because I feel as if I’m unqualified in comparison to someone like Geese, Mr. KOF or Kane9999.

Also, I think his point with fighting you in the tournament is to show whom is better.Do you believe you’re better than Geese at KOF? If so, why not face him? From my understanding, you live in Canada and if the tournament is held in Toronto, that’s probably pretty close. Why not go for the challenge and have a show?

Anyhow, I hope things will be resolved and such.

I have on small argument.

If Bata is one of the best in Japan and if Bata got last place against Mexico,
Mexico is better than one of Japan’s best.

Translated:
All people identical to Bata are one of Japan’s best.
All KOF playing Mexicans are better than Bata.
All Mexicans are better than one of Japan’s best.

Valid and Sound. This doesn’t state that they are the absolute best, but that they have defeated one of the best proving that they are better. Not only did Bata lose, but he got last place. In my honest opinion, it’s cogent.

522

you cant treat big scenes and small scenes the same

523

I can see that Dandy, but man if people were straight up like me man and not shady and talked shit behind peoples backs then everything would be different.

But people talk shit on chat, behind peoples backs, I am not just gonna be a coward and turn a blind eye to that when I can use them to make a clear example to everyone else that does the same. Why can’t everyone just go about things respectfully instead of resorting to talking shit on chat/irc/other places? I’m really a nice guy many of you people talking shit have just made me otherwise!!!

524

It’s not really something you can provide like that. if you understand the ins and outs of the game, then from watching the matches you will see why they are better. Me listing the reasons isn’t really objective proof until you watch yourself (and understand).

Well not really. He’s one of the best in 98, NOT 2k2 or 2k2UM.

…

Do you actually know what happened in the tournament? I don’t really want to repeat everything.

Don’t really think I said they were automatically better.

I understand the ins and outs of this game quite well. I’m not just saying it…you can watch the countless matches yourself, and if you understand the game you will probably see things that would give you the same idea.

  • Bata is not one of the best in 2k2/2k2UM in Japan.
  • Getting last place at a tournament doesn’t say anything about all the people in the tournament, just the ones Bata lost to…and even so, just losing to them doesn’t really imply you are worse
  • You missed the key details of Bata not being able to execute even basic things with the sticks they gave him, resulting in many misexecutions and additional frustration. Regardless of who’s fault it is for not bringing a stick, the point is that he was clearly not on a level playing field, so it’s extremely misleading to claim that they are better than Bata
525

If I remember correct, he had a stick that wasn’t his.

Now, assuming this is true, didn’t they state that he was allowed to bring his OWN stick? So it’s his fault if he didn’t bring it. Also, even if it is true he was using a stick that wasn’t his, would it have really affected him that badly to be in flat out last place? I’m just saying man, it couldn’t have handicapped him that badly. I mean, if I was driving a car and then given another car, I might not be use to it, but I would still know how to drive it pretty well. It’s not like it’ll keep me from getting from point A to point B. I’m not sure if that’s a weak analogy or not, but you get what I mean, yes?

Also, I’m not so sure about the videos thing… I mean, they can help you learn, but they don’t necessarily prove who’s better. Here’s how I see it man.

“If player 1 beats player 2 on a top level of gameplay consistently, then player 1 is better than player 2.” And I mean top. Casual matches don’t count in my honest opinion cause most people who play casual (even top players) are just usually messing around or testing things. Also, if you don’t think the Japanese are automatically better, what are you stating? I still see no facts provided to why you may think they’re better friend. Is there some form of statistics and such?

One more thing… I’m not sure, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt but… Did you just ignore all I said about fighting Geese? : S I mean, why won’t you fight him?

Anyhow, none of my questions were really answered.

“It’s not really something you can provide like that. if you understand the ins and outs of the game, then from watching the matches you will see why they are better. Me listing the reasons isn’t really objective proof until you watch yourself (and understand).”

I mean, how can it not be given? Just let top players fight each other and see who wins consistently. It can be measured after all, I mean, think of it like this…

Let’s say Player 1 is a King of Fighters or whatever (Just a little joke reference) and let’s say Player 2 is the King of Scrubs. Player 1 whoops Player 2’s ass consistently. It’s because Player 1 is better than Player 2 at the game. So it’s been proven Player 1 is better. Through statistics and measure, you can prove such things.

Alright, let me ask a question, please answer it. No offense, but you haven’t really answered my questions "^^

***What do you think of Mexican players of KOF? Why?

What do you think of Japanese players of KOF? Why?

What do you think of American players of KOF? Why?

Who do you think is the best overall? Why?***

Please answer these efficiently. Also, if you don’t mind, how come you won’t go and fight Geese to try to prove who’s better between the two of you? : S I’m just kind of curious. It seems like he’s willing to come over to Canada and prove who’s better, so why not face him? He’ll be near your area. At least give a reply to this. Also, the thing I stated earlier are If statements, and were only existent through validity.

526

He’s an arcade player. Not all arcade players play at home, so he might not even own a stick of his own. Might also have assumed the arcade’s sticks were well maintained. And have you ever even played in an arcade? Average sticks are unplayable in North America. Don’t tell me the situation is any better down in Mexico, because it isn’t. And yes it’s a weak analogy because it doesn’t work in the first place. This situation would be analogous to Bata’s car only turning right sometimes and not having knowledge of that beforehand.

527

Well, I’ve been to the arcades before. But please inform me the differences. Have you been to both arcades and tried the sticks? Also, I still state that it’s Bata’s fault for not bringing his own stick. If I’m not mistaken, Bata even admitted as well that they played better than him nonetheless. Does his word mean nothing all of the sudden? I’m not saying it’s impossible, I just think it’s slightly improbable that he’d be so low just because of the stick alone. Also, it’s not really a weak analogy if you can compare it. What I mean is, if the two things are not comparable, it’s a weak analogy. If they are comparable, then it’s not really a weak analogy. I’m not sure if that’s quite clear, hopefully you understand. I could be wrong though, maybe the stick did have a huge influence, however I still doubt it was the only influence to his loss is all. Also, no offense but Emil has not answered any of my questions… I want some of them answered is all.

528

I’m not sure why you are talking about logic and then you bring up this point…If the discussion regarding Bata was about who is better, then the point about it being Bata’s fault for not bringing his own stick, is irrelevant. Regardless of who’s fault it is, the point is that they clearly weren’t on a level playing field so it’s highly misleading. It’s no different than when I beat some realy good players that have no choice but to use keyboard to play because they don’t have a stick at home. Now, ignoring the fact that we were playing online, you think my victories of 25-0 meant much to me when I knew that this good player was using something that he wasn’t used to and clearly not playing like he should be?

Quite different…Japanese sticks are much different than mexican sticks (to my knowledge and what others say, I’m not an expert on sticks). He was having difficulty executing basic stuff (especially in 98, where he couldn’t even do Iori close C, f+A, rekkas, messing it up almost all the time).

It’s a weak analogy…are you competing with someone? What if it was a race and you were given this unfamiliar car that just wouldn’t move based on how you knew to use your familiar car, while your opponent was using a car that he’s been using for years (and assuming both cars aren’t reallly inferior/superior to each other in any big ways).

It’s based on the knowledge they have, the execution they have, the fact that they can execute in very critical situations (including situations where most people would be so surprised to even be able to execute something basic), their awareness, the depth of their metagame. This is stuff that is hard to objectively state in text, you have to know the games and watch.

Because I don’t care about it enough to travel around to play him offline. It’s time consuming and not on my list of priorities. We’ve been trying to set up DG to play online for years, he doesn’t bother.

That’s the easy explanation that doesn’t require much thought. Yeah, in almost all cases this would be true, but not all. You’ll get a more meaningful answer if you actually looked at the matches (rather than the final score) and realized what each player is doing, their level of knowledge and execution, how deep in the layer of mindgames they are thinking on and so on.

The top mexicans are fairly good(Abraham, Khannibal, Esteban, etc). A lot of mexicans however, are just combo crazed and are thinking on a low level. The problem with the top level mexican players is that they actually are lacking in the knowledge department compared to other countries - their metagame does not take into account a lot of information that, if they knew about it, they would be playing completelyl different. I’m not just talking about alternate guard btw.

Even the midtier Japanese players play well. While they have high level execution, their game is about a lot more than the combos. They are thinking on a high level, because their metagame takes into account EVERYTHING the game’s engine has to offer, while mexican gameplay is lacking in information. Every choice they make takes into account many things that mexicans would either forget about or don’t know exists.

When Japanese players play, it’s a battle of the minds. They respect that their opponents know everything just like they do, so the gameplay itself is a lot more intelligent.

Pretty bad, aside from some immigrants from China that came to the US. Most American players don’t really want to learn everything about a particular game. They want to win with shortcuts - the least amount of effort possible in most cases. This isn’t just about KOF really, this trait is pretty common in SF and other games. A lot of their game is about trying to take advantage of something (usually one attack or pattern) that seems “too good”, and it might be pretty good, but it’s a lazy way to play and they’ll be out of options when they run into opponents that actually know how to stop it.

Japan or other asian countries, depends on the kof game pretty much. In terms of Japan, I already answered it in the Japanese section - Japan’s metagame is far more developed, taking into account far more things than say, Mexico or US takes into account. THeir actions are based on thinking ahead many steps while in other countries like say Mexico, their opponent would probably not be able to think that far or that quickly, so most actions aren’t based on thinking ahead many steps. Japan’s execution is actually better than Mexico’s - it just doesn’t look like it to many people because Japan’s focus in most matches is not on landing the combos - Japan has very strong defense so it takes a lot of creativity and insight to be able to land something that is impressive.

Pretty sure he only said that the Mexicans play well.

529

Do you honestly think Bata would have come out and said “I can’t comment on the level of play here because we’re not even playing a game that I profess any great level of expertise in, and the fact that they won’t play me in a game that I’m good in in order to prove a point that my country is inferior to theirs is suspect.” No. He would be polite and compliment whoever won. He’s a guest and he wanted to be polite to his hosts is the more likely scenario.

530

[media=youtube]uTFihuV4gAU[/media]

This is faulty because-

  1. Bata has his own stick, Dune has even told me he does.
  2. Me and Dune told him to bring his stick, Dune many many times.
  3. Bata says himself he feels he lost because the Mexicans were strong, even saying they are very very strong in 2002.

Khannibal brought up a good point to me: Maybe Bata didn’t feel he needed his stick, maybe he felt he could beat the Mexicans WITHOUT IT.

Its probable because he was told many times to bring his stick. Maybe next time, but as of now the Mexicans want me to bring someone stronger next Japanese/Asian player I bring.

Also if Bata is that polite why is he sitting here saying 777 isn’t that strong?

[media=youtube]Xw826TLejkE[/media]

He did it in a polite way, but that’s *not *the first time I’ve heard 777 is not that strong in 98. From what I have gathered Bata is the type of person that will tell you the truth, though in a polite way.

-DG

531

Why are you so paranoid when we openly invite you to come to the irc channel and play with us on ggpo?

532

Anakron- I’ll go to the Irc channel, I do not have access to GGPO with my current setup. Maybe sometime in the future. Ill go to the IRC channel though and am more than happy to converse with people! =)

If you guys want I’ll be happy to go to IRC today/tonight!

-DG

533

I’m not going to take anecdotal / second hand evidence into account. There wasn’t not enough transparency as to what was going on with the whole event.

And lol. Arguably the best Kim in the world not good at 98? Not sure about that.

534

PD-Hey it’s what Bata said, he says his style is pretty but he’s not that good at 98. Thats what Bata said. Now sure like you Portland Drama I’d like to see it for myself, I’d like to get 777 and all these famous players over here to see firsthand what he’s talking about, hence as I say this certainly isn’t the end it’s just the beginning, I’m gathering all my mountain of evidence through all my hard work.

535

The jokes on you dickweed, because unlike so many others I am actually an offline player, I do have an arcade that I can go to and play 98, 02 or eleven. Anyway I’m friends with the guy that owns the arcade and he just told me that we WILL be having a tourney for kof and he has made me aware that you will be there. Now I’m not in any condition to accept a money match for $100 I’m a broke ass white guy I won’t lie, but I will participate in the tournament. If you win then I’ll shake your hand and take back what I said. Also I have been in a tourney before, I came in third, which isn’t first or second but still good enough for me.

536

@Portland_Drama
Well dude, there’s no real first hand evidence from Emil or anyone else. He gives no evidence whatsoever, but you seem to be agreeing with him. I’m sorry Emil, but watching videos might not be enough. Also, if the stick be such a big deal that someone who’s pretty good at the series be defeated, wouldn’t Umehera Daigo be defeated at some normal competitions? Or is he just so good that the stick takes no affect on him at all? I mean, he complains about using American sticks, but still does pretty well defeating us in SF while doing so. Also, it might be much asking but I sense a bit of hostility from you. Maybe it’s just me, but I just want a peaceful convo is all, no grudges. So, we cool?

P.S.
I play Karnov for fun some times. Maybe we can get an online match one day… I main Ryoko.

@Emil

Also, there’s a problem with the whole Meta-Game thing dude. Maybe there are things you’re missing. I mean, if you’ve seen many gimmicks and meta-games before, it’s easy to beat them out, so you don’t use them as often anymore because they’d beat it out. You get what I mean, yes? I mean, I could keep tricking my opponent with the same stuff over and over again, but eventually it’ll stop working and he’ll get so use to it that it’d be useless to try to do it so often. Also, if they play the game a lot, how would they not know the same information that you, I, Geese, or Japan knows? But one sec.

[media=youtube]9_qjJibbo-0&feature=PlayList&p=A66AA882591ABB64&playnext_from=PL&index=26&playnext=5[/media]

During one point in this video, Esteban uses Lightning Needle with May Lee and cancels into his Super. This is an example of Metagame because he allowed Bata to believe he was gonna be left punishable, by doing this, he’s displayed a form of meta-game. He is Mexicans, therefore, some Mexicans are capable of using mindgames. By some, I mean at least one or more and not literally just “some”. Some can mean many. Even though you mentioned Estaban’s name, he is Mexican, therefore Mexicans can practice mindgames as well on a high level.

Also, if it was solely placed on someone’s mindgames and they continuously lose, doesn’t that mean they’re mind games aren’t good enough or that their strategy is insufficient? If they continue to use different mindgames and lose, it’s showing that they’re outplaying their strategy, no? It’s not like someone can continuously rely on mind games and win, or else you could win on that alone. It’s showing that someone can read the mind-games and such and knows how to beat it. Isn’t that a part of Meta-Game if Mexico can predict this and defeat it? So, what makes them lesser than Japan if they know what they’re doing?

How do the Japanese play these Meta-Games better exactly? What example can you provide? Also, what evidence is there that they have better mindgames than Mexicans and such? Just because they display them more often, doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re better at it. Perhaps the Mexicans have just seen almost every form of Meta-Game and such that they could see and know how to beat it out usually. Where does your information come from exactly?

As for the Americans… Eeeh, I won’t say much. Not all of them suck, but most Americans don’t play KOF. Personally, (and I won’t say this is fact, but…) I think many Americans are a bit too lazy to figure out a game to it’s fullest extent. Not ALL of them. There are still some great American KOF players in this Country. Not too many, but they still exist in my honest opinion.

“Japan or other asian countries, depends on the kof game pretty much. In terms of Japan, I already answered it in the Japanese section - Japan’s metagame is far more developed, taking into account far more things than say, Mexico or US takes into account. Their actions are based on thinking ahead many steps while in other countries like say Mexico, their opponent would probably not be able to think that far or that quickly, so most actions aren’t based on thinking ahead many steps. Japan’s execution is actually better than Mexico’s - it just doesn’t look like it to many people because Japan’s focus in most matches is not on landing the combos - Japan has very strong defense so it takes a lot of creativity and insight to be able to land something that is impressive.”

Again, how is Japan’s metagame far more developed? Maybe Mexico just doesn’t throw out odd stuff anymore because they’ve seen a lot already. Maybe Mexico does tell a step ahead and you’re not sure. It’s not like we can jump into either one’s head during the game. In what way is Mexico’s execution less than Japan’s? Why? It seems like Mexico executes things pretty well and knows when to do what. If Mexico does use long pressures and combos, why do you think that’s less strategic if it might put their opponent under pressure? What examples of creativity would you give? Also, what’s your idea of “impressive”?

Personally, mine is whomever knows how to land the most hits on their opponents and help themselves win the game. That’s just me though. They don’t necessarily have to get the most hits, they could set them up in the corner and such with a combo as well or just ready themselves.

I mean, I saw that one video of the Chinese fellow playing KOF one handed, however… I’m sorry to say, but I wasn’t too impressed. I mean, playing strategically and just kinda showing off are different. I can beat my younger cousin at Street Fighter 2 with the controller behind my back, doesn’t show anything though as far as skill. Heck, I can even play my Bass with one hand, not that big a deal though, doesn’t further my actual skill, doesn’t do much for my playing ability, just makes me look good and that’s about it.

537

Why, Lawd?! Why is this thread allowed to stay open?!!

538

Welcome to SRK… Personally, I think the only way to get a thread closed here is if the admins want to either A) Make themselves look good or B) If it offends them and makes em look bad. I’ll probably get banned for saying that Shrug

539

You seem to be questioning whether Bata was really having trouble with the stick or not. You know, this wasn’t even being debated at all, it was pretty well accepted, even by Lecter as well as Dune, that there were many struggles with the sticks.

Well that’s what metagame evolution is really about…

Didn’t really say they can’t…and I didn’t say that some aspects of the metagames aren’t shared between the countries.

Not quite… this wasn’t even what I was talking about but anyway, when a metagame clash can occur, the better player can have their mindgames fail to work because their opponent does not understand the mindgame that is being set up. Players that don’t understand, can beat the mindgame without even knowing that it existed. For a high level player to beat some lower level players when a metagame clash occurs, they usually have to dumb down their game to a certain level, but finding the exact amount to dumb down your game can take a few matches.

Well let’s see…a basic example - Mexicans use quite often, weak attacks (or jump attacks) into command throw. It works relatively well because Mexicans don’t seem to understand the alternating guard glitch. Even some of the mexicans that claim to understand it, really don’t know the exact details of it and why it’s really so powerful. Alternate guard however, is a very common thing to know in the asian kof community. Because of it, you almost never see tick throw attempts.

Another one that’s quite common - how often do you see Japanese grapplers hop/jump into command grabs. Do you want to know why it’s not that common? Because Japanese are able to identify empty jumps with non-empty jumps very well, so they can jump/hop out of those empty jump throw attempts and punish with a heavy combo. This is why many times, even if a Japanese player is using a strong gappling character like Clark, Daimon or Orochi Yashiro, they jump/hop in with f+C/D. Reason? Because if they jump out, the f+C/D will turn into a close C/D that will anti-air them (depending on whether it has a good anti-air hitbox - for example Orochi Yashiro close C) or hit them on the ground during their vulnerable jump startup. If they for whatever reason, didn’t jump out of the empty jump, the f+C/D will grab them. You almost NEVER see this in a mexican match because players are not nearly as good at noticing empty jumps, so the risk/reward for doing empty jump into command grab is more in the grappler’s favor in Mexican matches than Japanese ones.

There’s many other subtle things like this…easy to identify if you have good knowledge of the game.

Eh, not at all. Plus, I’ve talked with a lot of mexicans about certain engine specific bugs and glitches that are practical in matches and affect the metagames - those players ended up either not knowing about them entirely, or hearing about it but not seeing the significance of the glitches because they didn’t truly understand how they worked. Pff, we even had Dark Geese here who had no clue about alternate guard, even asking a stupid question such as “if you knew he was going to throw, why wouldn’t you just jump it as opposed to alternate guard?” Pretty good display not only of lack of knowledge but lack of common sense thinking.

Great compared to who exactly? If Japan is a 10/10 in Kof, and Mexico is an 8/10, then the US BEST players are like 4 or 5/10 (not counting the immigrant chinese players).

Lol, metagame development doesn’t mean throwing out odd stuff.

Well first off, the ability to perform combos itself is fairly close between both countries, it wasn’t some kind of obviously big difference. However, I was referring to being able to execute (not just combos but also counters) in situations where most people would be confused/disoriented and unable to take into consideration everything quickly enough.

It’s hard to give examples of creativity…anyone can copy a creative setup, but it doesn’t mean that the one copying it is creative. It’s about the uniqueness of the setup AND how appropriate it is for the situation…Not just that though, the ability to think of and perform the setup in a tight situation (low on health, finals of a tournament, momentum shifted to the opponent, etc). It’s about being ready for anything to happen and being able to capitalize to the max.

I’ll link you to an old SBO finals match from 2003…Oogosho vs. BASH. The final round…What Oogosho does is rediculous on many levels - it’s extremely creative not just because it’s fancy but because it was completely appropriate for the situation and NOT easy at all to do in the kind of situation he was in (round 5, SBO FINALS). The level of composure, awareness, everything is extremely high. Somehow I feel you will probably not understand everything that’s happening here:

[media=youtube]-Dhi-lD_ulY[/media]

Well firstly, the one he was beating was Belgium’s best player…and secondly, yes it was a show-off video. It wasn’t really about playing strategically (he shows doing that in actual high level matches against high level players), it was about being able to play through a match against somewhat competent player, with one hand.

540

Are you familiar with tournament pressure?