I’m pretty sure that Hulk deals the most damage in the game, and he has highest damage X-factor boost as well. I’m sure if people do calculation, they find that Hulk is min damage scale is higher than any character in the game. Damage tiers should be based on min damage scale . Some character do have great damage, but they crappy BnB potential. For example Ryu’s denjin mode gives Ryu the ability to do longer combos than before.
I’m not really going to over calculate the tiers because this is just supposed to shed light on who really are the deer in headlights doing low damage and who is being framed. The tier list is just for funsies and not really serious. Got the low damage people down to like 5 which makes more sense than people who act like 30 percent of the cast does low damage.
I know I’m just stating the obvious, but we really need more Jill footage. All I can find are mostly old combo videos from when she was released and one from a few months ago on YT. Then I guess there was that one WNF where Clock ran her and showed off her crazy mixups. But that’s it. The curse of DLC Characters, I suppose, even if they’re good.
Just like Zero, Dante, Viper and everybody else…it’s up to the players to go out there and play her. Whoever is going to be the Flocker/DjHuo/Marlin Pie of Jill needs to get in the ring.
I remember hearing about some guy in the old tiers thread who is apparently crazy good with Jill and lives in SoCal, but doesn’t do any tournies. Anyone remember this guy/want to encourage him to demonstrate the power of Jill? Hell, even Shuma gets (marginally) more screentime.
Felicia hits like a truck. 500~600k meterless no-assist combos if you do your combos properly.
Also Morrigan’s damage is very, very low. Her damage scaling is really messed up.
I’m pretty sure you can do 600-700k meterless with rocket
I just drop it before then but rocket hits harder than strange.
which is stupid
That’s my old-ish BnB. Been using it since Vanilla, works everywhere.
Now I do j.H, Land/cr.L, M, H, Stinger, Bold Cancel, Volcano, j.H, Airplay, j.H, Land, H, [S~HHH~Prop Shredder]*, [Acid Rain, S, j.S]**, Land, Call Strider Assist, Crystal~Million Carats, Strider Assist Hits, Cold Shower~Stinger, Bold Cancel, Hammer, Land, Volcano~Beehive, Stinger, Bold Cancel, Volcano~Beehive
*In the corner do Cold Shower~Prop Shredder
**If mid screen super jump or Teleport and Hammer instead
Sort of off topic but who’s the MarlinPie of Dante? I mean there’s PR Rog, 10 Stars, and rogueyoshi but (no offense to them) I havent seen anything exceptional beyond bnbs.
Maybe TQ?
Had to be assistless, if we were counting assists Id show Acid Rain hasnt changed much with the right assists;)
PR Rog is technically the most creative and strong Dante player overall (put Dante into 2nd place at Evo). He’s been playing Dante since day one and Viscant has said how PR Rog made mix ups with Tron assist with Dante that you would pretty much need Haggar assist to block down correctly with any high rate of success. He plays basic but he has a lot of dirty, small stuff with him that matters at high level play. I remember him getting perfects on people with Dante way back during the first major for Vanilla at Final Round. It wasn’t surprising to see him do so well with Dante later on when he was one of the first that was trumping people with him. Dante is a do a little bit of everything while having overpowering spacing game with normals. Which is kinda similar to how Rog controls SFIV. He just has normals you can’t fuck with as long as the spacing is good.
Whoops, this should be about the same
j.H, Land/cr.L, M, H, Stinger, Bold Cancel, Volcano, j.H, Airplay, j.H, Land, H, [S~HHH~Prop Shredder]*, [Acid Rain, S, j.S]**, Land, Cold Shower~Stinger, Bold Cancel, Hammer, Land, Volcano~Beehive, Back Dash, S~HHHHH~Stinger, Bold Cancel, Sky Dance, Land, Volcano~Beehive
*In the corner do Cold Shower~Prop Shredder
**If mid screen super jump or Teleport and Hammer instead
It’s probably some weird backwards idea for her to build meter for the team or something. No idea.
Yeah it’s probably the idea that they figure Morrigan doesn’t need to do a lot of damage because she’ll be your teams meter building assist and then she comes in with meters ready to do damage.
It probably also has something to do with some of the theory stuff I used to talk about with Noone where she can do 650+k before super in astral vision (which technically requires you to spend a super to be in the mode obviously).
Sup guys, loving that [S]solid[/S] Zero damage
[media=youtube]fRj8uErHioQ[/media]
Tasty.
I should throw out the significance of some numbers…
The real bare minimum, which if you want to insist upon meterless you’re probably going to be looking at, is 417k. 417k is a OHKO on Phoenix, a 2HKO on the lowest three tiers of normal health characters (X-23, Rocket Raccoon, Zero, Amaterasu, Akuma, and Strider), and a 3HKO on everyone else. Any less damage and you suddenly need four hits to kill Thor which is going to give you problems against him.
A slight increase to 425k is a big deal though as that’s a 2HKO on a lot of characters. You get Doctor Strange, Magneto, Storm, Arthur (in normal armor; you could 2HKO boxers back at 417k and will need a bit more to 2HKO gold), Chun-Li, Firebrand, Jill, Trish, and Vergil at that damage. From here the next couple of health tier levels are 440k, 450k, 475k, 500k, and 525k each adding a tier of character health.
I feel that 550k is the last truly important threshold before you get into really large damage as this lets you 2HKO Taskmaster and Chris. I don’t like to jump too much into tier speculation, but I don’t think any of the characters with more health than that are going to be really big threats. You have Nemesis, She-Hulk, Haggar, Hulk, Tron Bonne, and Thor who would still require three hits to kill. Most of those characters are also large characters and none of them are small so you can expect extra susceptibility to character specific combos for that extra damage against them as well.
If you want to be assured of 2HKOing everyone, you need 625k.
After 625k, it really doesn’t matter very much at all until you hit 750k which lets you OHKO Strider and Akuma. From there you just start looking at how many characters you can kill in a single hit and, again, I feel that 1.1 million to get Chris and Taskmaster is the main ceiling beyond which it’s not quite as important though 1.25 million is a guarantee of everyone with damage beyond that being truly irrelevant.
I should give some perspective on how this plays out though. A lot of people like to mention characters like Chun-Li and Morrigan as low damage characters, but if you’re willing to do combos with less than 20% meter loss both break 600k using the combos listed in the BradyGames guide which are likely not even optimal. People mention Shuma, but if you consult said guide for him, you see his combo 1 does 634k at a 5% meter gain so yeah it uses a hyper but it’s self feeding (and it’s a pretty weird combo that I haven’t seen people on the boards push, but I should hope it’s safe to say that our own tech will only be equal or better to the guide’s tech not worse and that in a mature metagame we can expect strong players to have good enough execution to do combos listed in a pre-release strategy guide). And heck, the guide’s combo 1 suggestions (which are usually BnB suggestions) are not only usually not optimal but also very seldom incorporate assists, DHCs, TACs, THCs, level 3s, and X-Factor that could all be used to increase damage at the discresion of the player based on his team construction and match circumstances. And even more, that isn’t even getting to resets which can add potentially unlimited damage with a very good chance of success for the right characters! The only character I suspect has a true damage problem in Ultimate is Hsien-Ko; everyone else seems to do at least decent damage so I’m not sure it’s really valid to talk about damage being a problem for non-Hsien-Ko characters this time around. For some characters like Haggar and Spencer it clearly can work as a strength (those guys can one touch without using significant resources a pretty good chunk of the cast), but I just don’t see damage output as an overall big worry in this game since basically everyone has it, and stuff like this thread of doing big damage without using meter is really more about which characters are good batteries and can get their 2HKOs without spending the meter than which characters have good damage output (since the latter is “all of them except Hsien-Ko, and I’ll admit I don’t know Hsien-Ko”).
If getting to 500k damage without assists or meter in a practical combo is the pre requisite to be included in that truck category, just put Zero there…
my meterless, assistless, midscreen BnB is getting 550k damage before I spend any meter.
I’m still trying to figure a way to get rekkoha to connect after it as for now I can just do Genmu Zero and get it to 900k solo, xfactorless combo.
Anyway, the combo is: c.M, s.H, f+H, S, MM lv3 Buster, command dash down, f+H, S, MMHS, (this time, most likely than not, you’ve reached the corner) otg H dive, Lv3 Buster Cancel, L.Raikousen, S, j.S, otg dive, Lv3 Buster Cancel, L.Raikousen.
from here you can just Genmu Zero and ToD a lot of characters.
If you start in corner, Zero can break 700k damage in a very practical combo without spending any meter…
that “buster cancels stuff” thing is the most retarded buff anyone got in this game.
i agree with amazing amphoros… less than who does good damage its more about who builds meter the best.
chris g has been lighting people up with firebrand who at this point doesnt have amazing damage AND is a meter whore.
this game revolves around battery/user/assist and anchor more than vanilla did. cause in this game meter MEANS MORE.
without meter most characters are topping out at 500 k or lower which is still a 2hit ko on coon and friends.
i personally think at this point in time that health is much more of a factor than in vanilla. if your first character is a tank in umvc3 it will take a shitload of resources to kill them in general unless all the hp is whiddled away via keepaway. which is why ive been dabbling with hulk and chris at point. both take major resources to kill, and give better resources for dying, which helps out the user on the team immensely.
so yeah, to me its all about whos a battery and who is a user… batteries should have lots of chip, or ranged blockstrings or meter positive bnb’s with 1 super or high health.
preferably as many of those as possible but in general only 1 or 2 from that list is needed. i think tanks make GREAT batteries cause of there ability to suck resources from the opponent while also doing beefy “power” damage without super.
ie one team that i play and beat people with although i literally only play it to maybe 5% of its potential is ironman/hulk/arthur
if it isnt easy to tell the “problem” is arthur on this team. since i have a 950 hp and a 1.2 hp character before arthur it means generally that my opponents want to use XF on IM or hulk which completely sets up dark arthur to kill 2-3 characters via chip easily. once the opponent sees that they STOP using early xf and start trying to snap arthur in, at which point arthur has done his job. my opponent wasted meter to snap in arthur and gave me a lead in meter while also dropping his combo on whatever point i used. if arthur survives its literally a game losing mistake alot of times.
anywho the point is that meter (and metered resources) mean more than bnb damage in this game cause this game marks the return of the tank… mark my words.
-dime
I completely agree. I actually said something similar about low health characters being more of a liability than before, but your right about meter also meaning more too. Just try playing RR/Akuma/Strider and you’ll see how much of a difference low health makes in this game.
People are still saying things like “It doesnt matter how much health people have since you can kill them if you want to” (I think Dacid said it during the tournament the other day) but I think that will be changing. Because to make the choice to finish an average health opponent you are usually dumping at least a few bars in to it, and that’s a big difference. But to finish off a 750k health opponent a large amount of characters can do that with a single bar.