This discussion about how Ryu ( an old character that everyone knows his advantages already )is a better character isn’t helpful unless you’re dropping Poison for Ryu.
Can you guys list in your opinion Poison’s strengths, weaknesses, and I certianly could use some frametrap data.
From my view she has a projectile that you can control the speed of launch. This can help at keeping people out or jumping right into it. This can also make people wanna approach you from the air and you can anti air them. Though her anti air is not all that. Still something. Just needs good timing. But this helps.
Her s.MP is a good spacing tool to keep people out. I Like to bait air approaches with her Fireball and then hit with spaced s.MP. Its an easy hit confirm that can lead to a boost combo or a WoL/EX WoL.
If you have meter and your opponent knows posion, they will be a lil scared to shoot a projectile if you wait for it. This would limit the option and you can go in or zone in safe. Otherwise, her Flying EX kick is gonna lock the opponent for free damage. I noticed that if I have meter, people would usually jump or not move so much. That way they have time to block. Which is good, you auto put the opponent on the defense. Which you can take advantage of. Posion with Meter can become a problem for the opponent and can make them a lil worry or slow them down.
Posion is one of those characters that can not be pressured so much cause of her reversal move out of block. But can’t get too happy with it cause you could get baited and then eat alot of damage. Which you do not want to happen with her low health. So With this in mind, people that know her would be a lil cautious about pressuring her and try to bait that move. I have done my homework and learn some pressure strings and mixups that i can counter inbetween. And now am not pressured so much with fear of a reversal, and people would wait for it after 3-4 attacks on block. Now with the right read and reaction time, I can use this to my advantage and do some damage.
I have shut down rolento that love to do his rekkas for pressure. I have hit him out between the second and third hit. The think about her reversal is that it does not work against moves that are spaced well, like Vegas crouching jab. But you have to remember, people get pushed back. If I know the vega will go for 2 c.punches, then go for another one, I can get a free c.LK. Vega has to move up to countinue his strings of attacks.So around that time, frames are being killed for him and you can get a counter attack when he tries to go for a poke. You can get a free combo. You need good timing though. I have practice this alot and got the timing down. So u have this option too. can be risky cause he might not go for another poke. He could try for some mix up. At this point it’s all about making good reads and knowing the style of your opponent and habits. You would have to learn the raange and spacing your your kicks and the attacks of the enemy, cause this could leave you open.
She has hella range in the air and with the right spacing/attack, people are not gonna touch you at all.
Her s.LK up close is sooooooooooooo good. Mashable into a normal s.LK. This is good for footises and to get easy hit confirms. it is also good pressure with Love me tender. Which you can lead to a grab or use her s.LK up close to get an opening. This is a good way to pressure. Also a mix of that with her H.fireball. I remember someone telling me posions pressure game sucks, so I did this to them and got them to think otherwise.
Her flaws imo is that her mix ups are not that great compared to the others. it needs more variety. And because of that it would not be that hard for the enemy to block them all. Her cross up is not that great ether. it can leave you open and sometimes hard to hit with. You really need to space that move. She can have a hard time getting in on someone who wants to play keep away dude to her walk speed. if I play a opponent that wants to play chicken, I try to have atleast one bar on me for when I need to get in and try my best to get as much damage from it and gain that lead. That way the fool now has to come to me and fight. She does not hit hard. which is a bad mix with having low health. Now need to try and get alot of good damage and not make many mistakes.
Thats how I feel about her with the weeks I been playing this game and learning about her through matches.
What I think Poison lacks is a good reliable anti-air stuff. I know she has cl.HK, cr.HP, and st.MP as AA but they more than often end up in a trade and she doesn’t even get that much damage out of it, even if it counter-hits. KBG is kind of a bad anti-air imo for a DP, it has bad horizontal range, and sometimes it completely whiffs even when the opponent is clearly in the air above her. Honestly, I find you’re better off using j.MP as an air to air rather than relying on her anti-air normals if you predict that they’re going to jump. Her j.MP is amazing in the air.
Her ground game otherwise is very solid. st.H and cr.MP are amazing pokes. She might be no Ryu, but she’s got EX LMT, that alone keeps her out of Ryu’s shadow.
Sadly to say Poison offense isn’t that good >_>’ like cammy…you can crouch block all day as her only mids are neutral jumps, elboe drop and EX LMT. you can see neutral jumps, her command overhead is terrible…and you can jap her out of EX LMT if your trying to do it in a block if it wasn’t obvious to block it high o_O . The only really good thing about her offense is her CADC throw game, but that gets fairly predictable too…
like Jamp stated earlier, she has the tools to be good, its just that games mechanics kinda work against her. Personally, I have to stick with her because im too lazy to learn another character besides the few I know now.
Poison’s biggest flaws are that 1) She can’t open people up once they stop pressing buttons and start teching her CADC grabs and 2)Her zoning is mediocre. Unlike dedicated zoners like Sim and Guile, Poison can’t keep people out for a whole match and the most important one, 3) She has pretty much one of the worst damage outputs in the game.
These flaws wouldn’t matter so much if the game worked in her favor. You can zone people for a while, but the damage they’ll recieve trying to get in doesn’t add up fast enough because she can’t keep people out forever and that most of the damage they get will be turned into gray health, specially if they have gems on. And once they get in, Poison just gets shat on by people with superior normals, unless you get a unsafe move that lets you DP them away or something. And once the timer starts running out and they got a life lead, Poison can’t do squat about it if they feel like playing lame.
I would make it if no one minded.
Im sure no one minds if you are going to manage it, it’ll have to be updated consistently…thats about it.
I think her standing mp works if you walk back and you hit the tip of their feet with the tip of the whip. Of course I rather do air to air mp off a good read.
2.Sim and Guile are long range zoners, their moves specifically work at long ranges and guile has one get off me move. Poison doesn’t but has more mid ranged zoning tools, whip normals, aeolus, wol to close a gap,regular LMT which is + on block. I wouldn’t compare them to Sim and Guile at all, she doesn’t zone at full range. She does everything at midrange. But I think she CAN keep people out the entire game if you use that tip of the whip.
But yes I think chasing people down with Poison is very tough, I think your better off countering and zoning with her. If they get the life lead switch to someone with better pressure tools. Who has superior normals? In what way? Besides Rolento, I think that whip is pretty damn sweet.
Sadly with the tools she has, one of her better options is to rushdown o_O , instead of going all in, you almost play it like 3rd Strike…and take educated guesses as she must have momentum on her side to do damage(1 or 2 stock helps) if things go the other way around. where did you get hitbox data in showing her whip normals have no hurt box? Yoshimitsu’s J. :hp: still stuffs out all normal AA options…
Poison does have a get off me move…EX KBG is really good(underused), I don’t get why you said she doesn’t . I would never close the gap with WoL >_>’ and LMT for the most part have to be done either at a specific range or on wake up and even then if they have a strong reversal…and what does she do against characters with teleports o_O please tell me.
partners are irrelevant in this topic as the initial topic was about her overall effectiveness(her match ups). Ironically enough, both her and Hugo can’t really do much to Runaway Raven’s…
I think she’s kind of the opposite of Cody who has mediocre zoning, but better rushdown tools, Poison has better zoning but weaker rushdown tools. I honestly do much better baiting and playing footsies with her than rushdown atm. Where did I get the hitbox data? it said so in the guide, it says the tip of her whip has no hurtbox. I hope you guys new about that, also the book says she’s best at midrange, her long range has holes obviously and her rushdown is very basic. If you are rushing down with Poison and not playing the mid range game it’s obvious you’re not using her best tools available to her.
I wasn’t saying Poison doesn’t have a get off me move, I was saying Guile and Sim are long ranged zoners Guile just happens to also have a nice get off me move. And I use M KGB, I only use EX KGB when I need to nail them fast and hard. If they just land and you WoL into their landing recovery which is -3 on block, so what if they block? LMT works if they don’t expect it or you go right over a projectile. …I dunno man I can’t answer everything for you, go fight some teleporters, figure out some tech then contribute something? I’ve only fought Raven a few times and Sim like once.
They aren’t irrelevant because this is a tag game and this is how you cover weaknesses. This is a Poison general discussion thread and it does matter who her partners are, I’m trying to play the character not make excuses of why I’m losing. I’ll have to play more runaway ravens to figure out how to deal with him, but I’ve been mopping up the floor with scrubs, switching into hugo and using charged monster lariat to chase him down. With Poison I just build meter and carefully try to get closer.
@MACHSHO, I take whatever is in the book as a grain of salt…the normals you mentioned either get stuffed out by better air normals on a consistent bases or trades. I already knew shes works best at mid-range the tools she have spell that out for you and shouldn’t need the guide to tell you , and I rushdown because it’s effective, saying that im not using her tools is abit arrogant on your part…at least I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
You say so what if they block the first stage of Wol? Ok…3 or less frame specials/supers mean nothing to you I guess as i’ve already told you before Ken’s :hp: SRK can punish it if done correctly and the opponent can Swtich Cancel into heavy damage…but whatever right? I already have a way on how to deal with teleports shenanigans…I was merely asking if you did because as you seem to know the answers to everything…apparently.
Lastly, when generally talking about a character, you have to rule out her partner as it would not apply to everyone o_O what sense does it make to talk about strategies for Poison if you have to use “X” character. pretty much everything i’ve mentioned was about Poison in a standalone setting, you can justify it however you want but the fact remains that once shes out on the screen, she has to deal with that match-up herself…this isn’t marvel when you got assist jumping in and out…that’s generally why it’s irrelevant.
Edit: apparently the new hipster thing to do now is Alpha counters o_O so it seems no block strings are really safe once the opponent has 1 stock or more…
If it’s not true than go test it out, in most cases the end of her riding crop has no hurtbox, so aimwith the tip. As far as I can tell the whip has a hurtbox on air hp but not mp which is what makes mp so good. I think figuring out how to hit people with the whip’s tip is really important, if your getting stuffed perhaps you arn’t hitting with the tip and letting opponents get past that point for a trade I know it happens with air mp if theynget past the tip. If rushdown is effective than why are you complaining about her offense? If you want to play rushdown, Poison is not optimized for it, why not play Kazuya instead? Also about the arrogant thing, I’m trying to work with you guys here, but think what you will.
What has less than 3 frames that isn’t a shoryuken or grab? If you think you’re gonna get nailed by either of those then don’t use it. But past that it’s a useful tool if you use it when appropriate, only a few characters in a few situations are going to nail you in under 3 frames. If you ignore every tech that has a weakness, you simply won’t have tech, lol. Man about me knowing all the answers? you could sound a little less butthurt, every other post you seem upset about something man. Quit posturing and shit, let’s figure out this character and not waste time.
oh I think it is part of her total gameplan, we should talk about tag partners to cover her weaknesses and not double up on them. She actually doesn’t need to deal with it herself, I don’t like fighting Poison vs. Ryu so I lmt into boost combo, kbg into tag, or kbg then rawtag…so yeah mid match she can switch out a lot of ways. And I think lmt into hugo’s bigass combos makes people terrified of throwing projectiles. Yes it may not be viable for all teams, but I don’t mind people talking team strategies here, it might actually help them figure out good partners, combos, and team strategies which in the big picture gasp help them with their Poison gameplay.
Cross cancelling is not a hipster thing, people are just learning to use a very basic portion on the game finally.
sigh the hitpster thing was obviously a joke -_-’
Poison “can” do rushdown I did not say she was optimized for it(nor did I imply it), her normal damage is really bad thats the whole point in even trying to force opponents into the corner with her as her meterless mid-screen damage is terrible. The remark about me “complaining” about her offense, it’s something that most people can agree with…If her overhead wasn’t so bad, or you have to spend 1 stock for a slow mid-hitting special, I wouldn’t even have brought it up.
Considering Ryu’s and Ken’s are the norm in this game, Grapplers are often used…I don’t see why you think otherwise. You made it sound as if no one uses them. It’s alot safer to just walk or even dash then to use a special move like that to close the gap, why not take advantage of the godsend known as her mobility? In regards to your comment about me being butt hurt I wasn’t the one who implied you had to figure these things out for me, you when on and assumed that…not me.
Why talk about team strategies here when there are threads devoted to that very task, your defeating the purpose of said threads. Most people just chime in saying, X character works well with Poison and then don’t give a solid reason into why. Of course I ask, why do you think that way? give me some examples, only very few times I get a legit answer. You say you want to look at the bigger picture but honestly are? I’ve been helping people learn the character and discover new things about their teams and it’s synergy…what have you done?
Edit: In the End, I just want to squash this and move on, I’d rather talk about some constructive >_>’
Dude you are so fucking annoying, I’m just putting you on ignore.
Can we get past the whining about Poison and get onto some productive discussion?
So what makes you prefer S.lk (+0 adv. )to SC.lp (+1)?
Moving on… >_>’
Like I was starting to get into when I posted this in the main GD thread, I wanted to go over Maximizing Damage and streching out the mileage on your C.Gauge, so basically going over meter management and maximizing damage with and without Switch Cancels as this is something that can be covered “universally”.
Everyone in this thread my now knows what to spend meter for when using our homegirl Poison…however I fear you’ll do combos that are not really worth the meter your pumping into them. We know her normal BnB damage is low…205-207 off hit confirms into a solo combo. The more worth wild combos Poison can do off a poke or a hit confirm is a EX Aeolus Edge Link which would net you around 306 damage off a cr. :mk: (which is good mind you) as a midscreen combo. For Poison damage figures look alittle like this.
-Mid screen hit confirm: 205-207
-Mid screen hit confirm using 1 stock: 301-336
-Mid screen hit confirm using 2 stock: 331-371
-Corner damage without jump in: 266-306
-Corner damage without jump in using 1 stock: 360-378
-Corner damage without jump in using 2 stock: 441-450
these combos were done with the least amount of effort and should be noted as an average not a definite number
With having a good idea on what her damage looks like, now I can get into Boost Combos and Maxing out Boost Combo damage. The rule of thumb when doing boost combos from hit confirms is to reduce the number of jabs/shorts you do in the combo as they are what scales the damage hard, adding more then 2 jabs/shorts increases the damage scaling by whole 10-20% depending on the normals used. So the best thing is to use only 2 jabs/shorts in a boost combo for a hit confirm , then skip straight to fierce/roundhouse then launcher to finish the boost combo. It looks alittle like this:
Cr. :lk: ~ Cr. :lk: - Cr. :hp: > Launcher (145 damage and 70% damage scaling before partner reaction)
When using a boost combo from a poke or footsies u can do the rest of the chain, so it’ll look like this for example:
Cr. :mk: - Cr. :hp: > Launcher (163 damage and 80% damage scaling before partner reaction)
If you do the full boost combo, you’ll do less damage then these figures and increase the damage scaling down to 50% before your Partners reaction. These examples will help you get the most damage when your partner comes in.
Next is Boost Combos V.S. Switch Cancel Combos. I’ll use Lili in these examples as shes a popular choice. These combos will start out with Poison then to Lili and will use Poison’s jump :lk: crossup to start it
-J. :lk: ~ Cl. :hp: > :mk: KBG (Switch Cancel to Lili) ~ Cr. :mk: > Sunflower Dance.( :qcf: + :k: ) 363 damage -1 stock
-J. :lk: ~ Cl. :hp: > Launcher (Switch to Lili) ~ :lk: Angel Knee ~ Cr. :hp: > Sunflower Dance. 336 damage
As you can tell by these figures the damage difference is only 27 points…and you had used 1 stock, This happens alot when people are making new combos with the games system. There is another helpful tip, Only Switch Cancel during a Juggle and not a Combo. This sounds weird but if you think about it you’ll understand what I mean. The same combo can potentially be done if your starting the combo on the ground or from a jump in, however the combo cannot be finished if it’s during a juggle as you would need the switch cancel for your partner to follow up where otherwise not being possible, for example a wake up Shoryuken. Cross Cancels or Alpha Counters to Switch Cancel are worth spending 2 stock for as a raw super usually does the same amount or more making it a wise investment during pressure situations. This is what you should be saving your meter for, not for flashy switch cancel combos.
Other ways to effectively use your meter and maxing out your damage is to effectively use Boost Combos and Super Arts when they are necessary. I’ll use Lili again as a example partner. note: i’ll start with her Jump :mk: as it crosses up.
-J. :mk: ~ St. :hp: > Launcher (Switch to Poison) ~ Cl. :mp: ~ Cr. :hp: > :hk: KBG 396 damage or finish with SuperArt for 533 damage. From Poison’s earlier damage figures, 500+ damage is great and this will maximize your damage for the amount of meter your spending on said damage. Most of these examples can be done with the rest of the cast, however damage values will differ. But hopefully this will help you squeeze out every point of damage you can muster, also remember these combos are very basic so if you have the execution for CADC combos then by all means go for it.
I think we should talk about her strengths and a way to use them to protect her flaws. Cause You can know all the combos and all, but if you dont have a good way to execute them, They wont be much help.
You can have all the set ups and stuff too…but if you can’t convert it into damage…that doesn’t help either. So it goes hand and hand with each other. I could go into Setups and and finding ways to open up the opponent using her strengths, but like I say, if you can’t convert the opportunity into damage, it doesn’t help.
Edit: so i’ll go into Setups and ways for Poison to advance on her opponent without being to obvious and all that stuff…
I think by know people know her combos and all these fancy or legit ways of doing them. A way to go in with then is more important. Really when it comes to match ups, cause not every match you can play the same way.
You can have all the power in the world, if you dont know how to use it, all that power is useless too you. And I thought it would be a good idea since I hear people going on about her flaws all the time. So I think it be best to learn how to deal with her problems. I find that most important. Once one knows that, then we can go on about execution and dealing damage.
That’s how I feel about it anyway.
Alright, for yet another long post…This time about utilizing Poison’s strengths to open up the opponent and to step up her offense.
First i’ll start with full screen/post KBG set ups. As you may already know, Poison KBG knocks the opponent pretty damn far and this can usually kill her own momentum in trying to setup her own offense and it’s usually why it’s opted out for LMT. However there are ways for Poison to keep some kind of pressure afterwards depending on your opponents reaction.
-If they get up normally(no input): Poison should already be forward dashing towards her opponent to close the gap, about 2 character lengths Poison can do a hard to read crossup with J. :lk: due to her floaty jump, against a good % of the cast this is technically a safe jump setup as she will be safe from reversal AA special for the most part(there are some exceptions).
Another option is to neutral jump upon their wake-up to force them to stand block and force them into a block string, of course if they fail to block it they’ll eat a combo. Another potential option is to do :mk: or :hk: LMT to force them into blockstun and a free frame trap as your +3 in this situation, If LMT hits normally you should attempt the throw as it resets them into another mixup in your favor especially if you bait them to tech roll.
-QuickStand: If your opponent quickstands, you can do a LMT of your choice(spacing dependent) to force them into blockstun, however if they have a 3 frame AA reversal, it will beat it out so this is character specific. Another option and likely the safest is to throw out a :mp: Aeolus Edge to force them to block the projectile and helping you stay in the mid/close range.
-Techroll: Usually you wont see a tech roll unless they were forced into the corner, if that happens you have a few options depending on your spacing. The main option is just throwing out :lp: Aeolus Edge, as if it tags them it’s free damage and if it’s blocked thats free blockstun for you to use to close the gap between your opponent. Dashing to a neutral jump is another viable option but ultimately depends on the air normal you do that will determine it’s effectiveness, Jump :hp: or :hk: work well in this situation.
Generally if your full screen with Poison, her overall effectiveness will be very little, she needs to be at least mid range to be scary, even though EX LMT is good for closing the gap, its not wise to use it as your go to move as it can be interrupted by non-projectile attacks…as a DP can tag you in mid air and then they could potentially get a switch cancel combo from it. For safety reasons, walking or dashing is the best way to go.
Mid-Range is where Poison wants to be “most” of the time before getting in close to deal damage. She has access to her Aeolus Edge and LMT specials and some of her farther reaching normals are also there to be used. Far :hp: can tag an opponent almost 2 characters lengths away, even though it isn’t special cancelable…it can be canceled into a launcher for a boost combo with little to no scaling prior to it. Her normal AA options are also viable at this range too( far :mp: ) as they too have long reach and are special cancelable too.
At the Mid/Close range, Poison’s Cr. :mk: is usually her go to normal to fish with, far :mp: is also rather good for the same reason. Jumping becomes a factor for Poison at this range as she can float over them for a crossup with J. :lk: or make it ambiguous with J. :hp: (it doesn’t cross up though…sad). :hp: Aeolus Edge is also a multi-purpose tool at this range as it can AA and be used as a solid spacing tool, this can even bait out command dashes for you to tag them with Cr. :mk: .
In close range she has alot of options, but not all being really effective. First to get it out the way, her Overhead should be used sparingly, 60 damage to keep them on their toes is little reward for eating a normal or a special as the move is -6 on hit, most jabs/shorts can punish this after being hit. Neutral Jumps are effective at this range but if used too often they lose their effectiveness. Poison’s close normals are good, both close jab and close short can be rapid fired into other normals like Cr. :lp: to link into Cr. :mk: for her BnB damage. Close :mp: is good for timing her EX Aeolus Edge Link combo or used for a Boost combo.
Any special Cancelable normal can be used to set up her CADC throw setups but its best when used when you have frame advantage. What Throw to use will depend on the mix-up your trying to go for, the neutral throw will net you 10 more points of damage and the opponent will be very close to Poison, allowing you to set up a meaty :hp: Aeolus Edge or Jump in setups, very effective in the corner. The backthrow is 10 points less then the former, and leaves the opponent farther away from Poison, however you sill have options you can do. A forward dash and jump will give you the perfect range for a crossup, also if you use :mp: Aeolus edge then use :mk: LMT to close the gap during the blockstun and keep up the pressure with a forced induced frame trap.
there is more stuff but im really tired -_-’
She has a fair share of problems, mostly like Cammy she just doesn’t have any solid mid-hitting attacks that are scary or meterless so the opponent can just block low, you can CADC or walk up and throw them, thats always an option but when they start teching throws then your options are less then what they were before. At that Point she will have to rely on her frame traps to help her score counter hits or just hits in general for her to convert that into damage. you combine that with low damage off hitconfirms, then you have Poison’s flaws in a nutshell.
I agree with knowing the match up, but that can be said about any character, it’s just how is Poison going to deal with “X” Character match up is the question, but the thing is, no one has really asked what are Poisons bad match ups? or has anyone ran a Match up chart for her…with that said, I don’t know how to run such a chart, so im clueless on that one. All I can give is based on my own experience in how you can deal with a particular match up.