I edited that sentence to read: “you sound like you WANT him to never win”.
Yea, Sirlin considers the ability to C-wing (when you want to:rofl:) a buff actually…
Oh well that changes things.
lol
I’m trying to main him more instead of Barlog.
So yea, Of course i want him to winout.
I just wanted to add a couple of fei players to my list so i can get some good experience
one light change i’d like to see is also giving his forward chicken wing the ability to go through projectiles, but keep his roundhouse chicken wing the same. i mean even rog got his buffalo headbutt going through fireballs extended to strong, so it would be somewhat consistent with the rest of the changes.
I don’t understand the logic behind CWs new motion being a buff. Its more intuitive, but ultimately it doesnt really make any difference in the way he is played at a high level, since players at that level never had a problem with the original motion to begin with. I wouldnt even call myself a high level player but I still have absolutely no problem with the original motion. Taking away positive aspects of the move and then changeing the motion to make it more casual friendly was a nerf and nothing more. It could only be considered a buff by people who think you have to be a god to perform an spd with geif or raging storm in a fatal fury game.
This is the reason why I couldn’t understand the “nerf” of Fei’s CW in hd remix. In regular ST, players can still get out of the CW trap and high level fei players had no problems doing the CW motion. Nerfing the CW basically negated a part of Fei’s pressure game.
Sometimes I regret maining Fei, so much work and effort needed to win a match(but… he’s so fun).
Well… you can’t really expect much, since Sirlin doesn’t main Fei at all(doesn’t he main honda?) His public match on HD remix proved it and him getting destroyed by that Honda was also so :wgrin:
P.S.
I still wonder why stored ochio wasn’t removed yet they contemplated of removing Chun’s stored super.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: there was no rational basis for the change and there never will be. When asked, Sirlin will just say Fei is still good and he will stomp you if you say different. Yeah, Fei can still win despite the change, but that’s not the point. If you take away Honda’s stored Ochio he can still win too, but that doesn’t somehow make it not a nerf. Sometime during the beta testing he thought Chicken wing -> flame kick was somehow “too good” despite the fact that’s always been there before and people never won a tournament because of that, yet apparently it was now enough to warrant action.
He’s never really justified it and he probably never will. He feels Fei is better now, and he will more or less stay the way he is now even if there is a future revision. He’s said so himself. In the end it’s his choice, not ours, and that’s unfortunate because just about every other Fei player in the world will tell you he’s dead wrong on that. (Just ask) If I see him actually play Fei and win a tournament with him then maybe he was somehow right, but I would probably bet a year’s salary he will play Honda or Bison when it comes to serious business.
I guess what frustrates me is that you’re supposed to give low tiers the benefit of the doubt on these types of things. If they seem like they’re low tier and they have something that may elevate them to upper mid or high tier you should leave it in. I guess he was probably still scared by Fei Long version 1 and his reign of terror, but then again he wasn’t afraid to experiment with T Hawks dive so it still makes ZERO FUCKING SENSE to nerf a low tier character’s tool that has been PROVEN by previous versions of the game to not be broken.
Actually, I did try pretty hard to have a discussion with Sirlin about this. He did make really convincing arguments on some of the stuff I thought was really bad, but I feel like he skirted the issue about the most important things, in my opinion:
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Chicken Wing doesn’t really lead to a lot of damage, can’t do pressure strings midscreen anymore
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The old Rekka punches actually allowed you to put MORE distance between you and your opponent on block, making them safer in more situations (Guile comes to mind).
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His jumping normals still fucking suck.
Yeah Sirlin convinced me too, but then I looked back at what he said and realized he still didn’t really provide a rationale as to why he applied various nerfs (reduced meter gains, unsafe LK flame kick, chicken wing, less knockback, worse air to air priority on CW, etc.), he just talks up Fei’s new range, juggle, and super. In a sense he says it’s a trade off, but even if Fei is somehow slightly better than he was in Super Turbo that isn’t good enough in a game where nearly everyone else is drastically improved.
Really I just want to ask the following:
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Is Fei top tier as he is?
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If not, would reversing the nerfs and keeping his buffs somehow make him broken (e.g. HD Akuma)?
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If not, then why is he as he is now?
I mean seriously. I think even if Fei got the “greatest hits” treatment, he would still lose to Honda, he would still lose to Dee Jay, he would still lose to just about everyone he loses to now. The difference is that when he does manage to land a chicken wing he can do some real damage, the difference is that he could actually have a safe mix up with LK flame kick/Throw after Chicken Wing, the difference is that he could hit someone with a CW at max range without getting swept.
Speaking of Guile, the character that was already a solid character without all the buffs (and may I add zero nerfs) can now hit Fei Long with his HK Flash Kick after any third Rekka, regardless of how perfectly it is spaced. So much for the new rekka range helping Fei vs. Guile. It’s already hard enough to get ahead on chip damage against Guile, now that you can’t even use the third punch it makes it that much harder. I swear, why does Fei always gain an inch only to lose a mile?
I 100% agree with you.
Fei lost a lot of his pressure with these changes. As I said before, I take the old motion and even the old properties of the CW back. I don’t care if lk CW doesn’t go through fireballs or the other CWs can juggle, I personally would say it’s a good trade to have the old CW back + old CW motion back.
I particulary do not mind the extra “lift” that they added to Fei’s lk flame kick but I do mind the CW nerfs.
What still boggles my mind is that Sirlin thought about removing Chun’s stored super while he did not even blink when it came to the stored ochio. He also removed claw’s ability to charge flip kick by holding back, why not do the same for Honda?
In regards to Guile, I personally believed that his old Rekka range had enough range to pressure Guile. Max Fierce rekka range was already out of Guile’s cr. forward kick range(even though it’s miniscule, it was already out of it’s range).
I understand Sirlin thinking that the old Chicken Wing combo was too buff. The way I saw it, the best change would be to make Chicken Wing initiate a juggle state on hit, so that you could juggle flame kicks right afterwards.
That way, he’d still be guaranteed the amount of damage you can do with that Chicken Wing to Flame Kick juggle - a good amount of damage - without having access to a combo that could kill you if he landed it twice. He could also retain the same pressure game he used to have if it was simply blocked, so everybody wins!
Here’s the thing. Sirlin is absolutely right: Fei Long is fine in this game. He seems to also have made it his personal mission to prove Fei Long is competitive. And again, he’s right. Fei Long can compete with most characters just fine.
The problem is that Fei Long isn’t Fei Long anymore. He created a brand new character, one that gets in your face and spams Short Chicken Wings all day. That’s not Fei Long. That’s never been Fei Long. There haven’t been a lot of iterations of Fei, really, to make that statement as justified as I make it sound, but most people here would probably 100% agree that Fei Long would NEVER end up playing like that if anyone else was in charge of the game. Yes, he’s more balanced, but Gief with a Fireball would be as well.
Really, the removal of the Comboing from the Chicken Wing was a reaction to the Roundhouse Chicken Wing also going through Fireballs. If you read his post on Fei Long, old versions of Fei, which were too good, had Roundhouse Chicken Wings that went through Fireballs. That means you can pretty much kill anyone for Throwing a Fireball if you predicted it from half a screen away. So yeah, at that point, it would be too good to Combo afterwards.
But then in the post, he said he removed that ability and left it only to the Short Chicken Wing. At that point, he should have returned the comboability back to Forward and Roundhouse. Of course, the easy motion makes everyone scared that he can lock down characters like Bison and Gief too easily with Roundhouse Chicken Wing traps, but I think it’s pretty well documented, by now, that it’s actually not a loop… that Fei can only do three reps before he’s pushed too far. Not to mention that characters like Bison already have ways out of it without needing to block three reps of the lockdown.
As for Stored Oicho, there’s no other way to put it: it was just character favoritism.
- James
It sounds like you guys suck at playing Fei Long. High pressure with Rekkas and random extra damage off Chicken Wing -> Flame Kicks is good. James Chen come on, “he doesn’t feel like X” is your stock line for when a bad character can win, it seems. He Rekked before and he Rekkas even more now. Chicken Wing leads to plenty of damage still, due to the new juggle combo. He is even more Fei Longy than he was before. And Higher Jin sounds especially unskilled. Try getting better with him before making balance statements.
Edit: And James Chen, I don’t appreciate claims of character favoritism. The game is better off having an attack character like Bison and defense character like Honda. Stored ochio contributes to him being a defensive tank. That is the reason, not the highly unprofessional claim of yours, why I left it. Now that we’ve had more time to play the game, it seems that his headbutt should have been more vulnerable, perhaps trading like Blanka’s ball does. It’s just that no one could beat me with Honda during testing, and NKI even asked for headbutt through fireballs to be buffed. Anyway, at least Honda’s matches are closer than before (Zangief has better chance, Cammy has better chance, Blanka has better chance, Fei Long has slightly better chance, Balrog still about even, Ryu has less advantage, Ken has less advantage, Guile has less advantage). Overall better, even though yeah, it could have been even closer with another change to headbutt vulnerability. In any case, I await your retraction of favoritism claims. My goal was to make the game last as long as possible, not to rig things for me personally.
1- idk about all the guys here, but i do know Xstance is the best Fei i have ever seen.
2-I could care less about Honda’s nerfs or his buffs either way. I just like beating Honda players. I only like beating Akuma players more.
3-Question: If Fei Long is only 5’7, why doent Rekka hit low too?
Would that be too much of a buff if he did? I figure it like this: even standing Fei isnt taller than some of the characters crouching.
Thanks for taking the time to drop by man.
I won’t put in a lengthy response (James and HigherJin will probably take care of that. LOL.), but wouldn’t it have been possible to make Honda’s HP and MP Headbutt not fly back so far? If Fei/Cammy Could punish it with Rekka/Drill, I think the matchup would be so much better.
Just throwing out ideas.
I still strongly believe the nerfs for CW’s wrecked Fei Long. Addressing one issue created an even worse one.
Please don’t misconstrue this as an attack on you, David. Personally, I think you’re reacting more to James statement about character favoritism than you are to what the rest of us have said. While I greatly respect the time and effort that you gave in rebalancing this game and I have a high regard for your skill level in SF, I have to ask something I asked a while back…
If the claims here are invalid, why didn’t you beat Thelo’s Honda with Fei Long? Why did you immediately switch to Ryu, Honda’s second worst matchup (Ken being the worst)?
What I’d like to see…and I’m certain a lot of people would want to see it…is video of how Fei Long wins this match…against the best Honda players out there. I’ve seen the videos of you playing and, for the most part, those videos feature players that make huge mistakes against you. That all changed when Thelo showed up and beat you with Honda.
It’s not that I want to see you losing, per se, it’s that I want to see how you handle some of the best players in the country…now…versus when the game was new and we didn’t know as much. I think it would be excellent video and I think we’d have concrete proof regarding whether or not Fei Long is last place or at least bottom tier in this game.
By the way, I just got done typing up a post regarding combos in the “Fighting Game Discussion” thread and I think something that I pointed out there applies to your statement about the stored Ochio throw making Honda a defensive tank, as well. While it’s true that E. Honda is, generally speaking, more of a defensive character, doesn’t that also make him more of a safe, non-risk taking character? Is the relative amount of risk that he takes to win really good for the game? Personally, I don’t see the rationale in giving a character a free pass at having to execute a motion within a certain time frame in order for a move to come out. I’m not the best player in the world, but I can rather easily whip out a reversal SPD if I block a light attack. Why does Honda get a pass when his motion is easier?
All I want to do is get in your head and figure out why you feel that was necessary. I could read your article, but that wouldn’t convey your present thoughts. Humor a fellow a.g.sf2 alumni, please? 
FreshOJ, I think you’re making the wrong claim entirely. Is Fei Long better able to beat honda than in ST? Answer: yes. But is Fei Long actually any good against Honda? No, especially not online. Offline honda can’t get free headbutts on me as I try to react to them and fail in lag, while online he can get ahead that way. That makes the match extremely bad. Even that aside, the match is still bad. (Though I wish I had more offline practice in it…also damdai is mysteriously good at this match as Fei Long…) Anyway your criticism that I switched characters in a tournament is ridiculous. If Fei Long vs Honda were a 4-6 match (I’m not saying it is, but if) it would still be reasonable for me to pick a match where I think I have an advantage IN A TOURNAMENT.
Set aside this one bad match that is better than it was in ST. The rest is fine.
Chicken wing. The short one lets you dominate the match at a specific range against fireballers. Try standing within range to hit ryu’s hands and notice that you can chicken wing to hit him on reaction if he throws a fireball. Major buff there. You can’t rekka on reaction in that situation because you’d get hit by the fireball. Also, the threat of this makes him hesitant to fireball so you can poke with rekkas. You should be using this to your advantage.
Chicken wing motion is now 3 joystick inputs rather than 7. You might argue that’s an actual balance buff in itself, but even if you reject that, the execution TIME to do the move is now less than half. In the situation above, that’s all the more reason why you can do it on reaction to dominate that range.
Are you getting lots of damage off chicken wing -> flame kicks? If not, why not? You should be. My guess is that maybe you aren’t because you are afraid to do the chicken wing very much because maybe you think you’ll get back if they block it. Not really. You don’t recover later than the opponent, fyi. When you land, you can do another chicken wing to become unthrowable (though they could dp it), or you can flame kick to beat anything they do. Or if you have them afraid of those things, you can throw them. So all in all that means you can throw out chicken wings a fair amount and somewhere in there you’ll get chances for the flame kick juggle. I do this all the time in ranked matches.
Rekka range is very good. I mean, I hope I don’t have to explain that part. Being able to attack from so far with such a fast, high priority move that is safe on block and does 30% damage on hit is good. Yes it is safe on block. Either that or no ranked match Guile has any idea what they are doing against me. Even if there is some case where it wasn’t safe, you could do 2 rekkas I guess, and still be better off than ST because you’re still benefitting from the increased distance/speed that you can threaten 30% damage.
You guys should try to take advantage of these things before complaining. Also, I’m not so sure complaining will have any effect anyway, because who knows if there will ever be another patch.
Regarding Honda, yeah making headbutt less safe on block is a reasonable suggestion and that would certainly fix the fei long match. Even though it’s reasonable though, I still probably prefer making the headbutt vulnerable like blanka’s roll, but again there’s little point in debating it since it seems pretty academic at this point.
why can hawk and gief reversal 360 feis CW every time? i back up fei and i think that is so retarded.
also - how often does CW actually BEAT someones jump attacks? like never.
Whoa there dude…
He needs to fly back far, if not Honda would constantly be on top of the opponent.