Not very close mind you.
Just far enough for only Fei and Cammy to punish with HP Rekka/ HK Drill on block.
If you aren’t hitting with chicken wing -> flame kick, that’s a sign that you are not very good with Fei Long. This is common and happens all the time in real matches.
I do chicken wing vs T.hawk all the time. Reversal flame kick when you finish seems to hit T.hawk’s attempt at spd. Damdai has found this as well, I believe. Same vs zangief but of course you don’t even need that move to beat Zangief so who cares anyway. You have low fierce, stand fierce as staple moves, the occasional rekka to punish, and stand short or flame kick as anti air. And you are complaining about that match?
Actually, that wasn’t my point. The match video I’m referring to was a video in which you were playing as Fei Long against a few other people in a room. I remember one of them having a horrible Ken who obviously didn’t know the matchup and, otherwise, just wasn’t good with him. Thelo a.k.a. TheloTheGreat came in against your Honda and won. I remember you putting up a good fight, but IIRC, he took you in two rounds. It was an online match, not a tournament. I know you play to win, but I know you wouldn’t do that in a tourney.
Even with all of that info, it’s still relatively hard to crack the turtle shells of non-projectile characters without putting Fei Long at considerable risk. That’s why I think Fei needs guaranteed damage without getting reversal thrown after a Chicken Wing. I like the idea James gave of making the Chicken Wing start a juggle on grounded opponents as well. As for the Rekka Ken, I love the changes you made to it. Love…it! 
I just wish Fei had more high-low mixups that weren’t easy to see coming (whether because they’re slow or they’re short-ranged) and counter. Block damage wasn’t enough in ST and it isn’t here.
By the way, I also think Blanka’s Beast Roll (a.k.a. Rainbow Roll) should’ve gotten the same treatment. Make it knockdown and start a juggle. Moves that have really long startup need to have a reward proportional to the risk they carry.
I think risker :mp: and :hp: headbutts on block would balance out his other low-risk moves. There’s no real need to change anything else about it because it’s still countered with rapid jabs and DP and stuff like that.
The headbutt should still beat Blanka’s Horizontal Roll, though. It’s more pointy.
But hey, I appreciate the response. It may be pointless debate in that what we suggest may never come to be, but the consequences will be pretty evident in tournament play. I’d love to see Fei Long or Cammy actually win a national tournament, but I have a feeling I’ll have to settle for Syxx573 winning with Cammy in those Chicago tournaments.
All is not lost, though. HD Remix has certainly revitalized the fighting game community and for that, I’m thankful.
Now that we’re getting more responses out of you…
Gridman’s a diehard Hawk player. He’s got the goods on video. (You know Gridman…have you fought Kuroppi yet? I’m sure Bob would give you a very good match. I’d love to see video of that.)
Like I said in my other post, though, the point is…look at all of the work that he has to put in to actually sneak in a Chicken Wing. The move is fairly obvious to see coming. But, even when you make contact with it, you may still get thrown. I know…they’re escapable if you out-think your opponent…but why should you be put at a disadvantage for sneaking in a very telegraphed move?
There…finally got around to the question I wanted to ask. I couldn’t word it before.
chicken wing -> difficult link to fierce for 80% damage is stupid. This isn’t Street Fighter 4. Balance aside, the game is better off replacing a difficult link with an easy way to get extra damage off chicken wing (juggling with flame kick). Also, when you are close, you are pretty damn strong as it is. And you should be saying thank you, not complaining, for exchanging some hard link with common, guaranteed damage off juggling AND longer rekkas AND short rekka through fireball AND longer super that’s really useful. That’s a lot of stuff to gain considering chicken wing is still safe on block and unthrowable if you do another chicken wing or flame kick after.
Again, there’s no point in complaining vs Zangief when you win that match anyway or at least go even in it. I do just fine against kuroppi’s zangief, at the very least we go even in ranked matches or maybe I won more, I forget. I certainly don’t need even more advantages against him though.
Re: Honda
Sorry, Dave, I can’t retract the statement. Not until you can give me a compelling enough of a reason that Stored Oicho should have stayed (the one you’ve given so far is far from compelling) or until you at least admit that Stored Oicho was a bad thing to keep and that you’d remove it if you had the chance at a patch. Even all the expert Honda players on this board agree that Stored Oicho is dumb and should have been removed. Before the game was released, everyone in the HD Remix thread said, 'Well, we can all at least be sure that Stored Oicho will be gone…" and everyone on this board right now keeps saying, “Yeah, I don’t know why Stored Oicho is still there.” You are the only person who seems to have thought Stored Oicho was a good idea to keep. And thus far, your reason is not convincing at all.
“Honda is supposed to be a tank.” Do you really see that as a valid reason? A valid reason to have a throw that out prioritizes Normals and all other throws while remaining in defensive crouch? A throw with good range available at the touch of a button? With no downside of having it stored? And the stored motion never goes away even after you hit the button the first time, so you can Hand Slap and Jab and Strong without losing the Stored motion? And the reason you keep it is because he’s supposed to be a tank? I could create the worst character on the planet and I would think that kind of a move would be too good for him.
I agree that he should be defensive. But you said your main goal was balance, and that destroys the argument for keeping Stored Oicho more than anything I’ve said. Your whole reason to keep it, so far, is because you want to maintain an ideal for Honda. But in the interest of balance, how can you argue to keep the Stored Oicho when it hurts the characters he already dominates and helps not at all against the characters he loses to. If you are so interested in balance, the Stored Oicho should have been the first thing to go. Does that not seem logical? By removing it, you’ve already improved Cammy’s and Fei Long’s and Bison’s chances against Honda. And you haven’t affected his matches with Guile, Ryu, Ken, and Dee Jay at all. Honestly, I’m not trying to be mad at you here, but what is your argument against this? I think what I’ve said is SUPER logical and not a single person here would disagree with me on this one. Stored Oicho was one of the easiest balance fixes that could have been applied to Honda to help those who die against him without affecting matches Honda has trouble with. There pretty much is no argument to have kept it in.
Re: Fei Long
I’ve watched your matches against Hondas. You do Short Chicken Wing all day long. I’ve seen your matches against non-Honda characters. You use Short Chicken all the time. I played Fei Long extensively in HD Remix… he was my favorite character to use for a while… I think he still is. I’m not saying he’s not fun. I’m not saying he’s not good, I’m just saying he’s not Fei anymore. He really isn’t.
My primary offense comes from Short Chicken Wing. In fact, my entire gameplan for Fei revolves around that move now. It’s the basis of 80% of my Fei Long gameplay, so while Rekkas are useful, still, they are there to aid in my Chicken Wing game. And keep in mind, I do perfectly fine with Fei Long. I win lots of my matches, so it HAS been the optimal way for me to play him. In fact, that’s WHY I like using him now, because the Chicken Wing games are so much fun to play. When you are on a roll, and you get the guys locked down in Short Chicken Wing mind games in the corner, it’s like nirvana. It’s so-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o much damn fun.
But I’ll be damned if I said that I felt like I was using Fei Long anymore. That’s all I’m saying. Fei Long’s game should revolve round the Rekkas. Chicken Wing was a HELPER Tool to get Fei Long inside, before, so he could land Rekkas. That’s why he had the Combo, that’s why he had the Frame Advantage. He had those because it was supposed to help the Rekkas. The Rekkas are now a companion piece to the Chicken Wing. And in your interest in keeping Honda the “tank that he’s supposed to be”, I’m surprised you think Fei Long is the same even though the Rekka has become his least best Special move. Can that be denied? As much as you and I can use Rekkas now, it’s still his least effective special move. That’s not saying Rekkas aren’t good enough. That’s just saying Chicken Wing is that good now and your Reversal move is always a candidate for most important move in your arsenal. The Rekkas are all secondary to those other moves now. And because of that, Fei Long isn’t Fei Long anymore.
So don’t get me wrong… I don’t hate Fei Long at all, now. Far from it. I really like this Fei Long! He’s just not Fei Long anymore. He’s like Yun if ST Fei Long was Yang. He’s got similar moves, but his gameplan is entirely altered. I honestly believe he’s still the character I enjoy using most in HD Remix in some bizarre way, but he’s not the Fei Long we know and love.
- James
Like I said, I agree with you. I just think the Chicken Wing should’ve always knocked down on hit and started a juggle. On block, yeah…it’s perfect the way it is.
David…I don’t know if you remember, but I wrote the SNES SSF2 Link FAQ about 9 years ago. I don’t mind hard links. That said, I still agree with all of the pros you just mentioned. Speaking for myself, they’re great and your hard work is appreciated by me. However, since your work is something that we’re all playing, we’re well within our rights to point out what we don’t like about it while still being thankful that it exists. That being said, I wish you had made the Chicken Wing (at the very least, the Roundhouse one) knock down and start a juggle on hit. In my opinion, that would’ve been the proper reward for this risky move.
The point that you’re missing in this is that you’re rewarding hitting with a highly telegraphed move with, at worst, getting thrown and, a best, a mixup that’s 50/50. Do you see the risk/reward disconnect there?
Whatever, super logical James-who-everyone-here-agrees with. There’s balance and flavor. Zangief with knock down green hand could be good for balance but bad for flavor, as you pointed out yourself. Stored ochio makes him a defensive tank. You’re complaining about the wrong thing anyway. I could have made honda the worse character in the game and still have stored ochio. Imagine 90 nerfs in every area of his game. So it’s not like stored ochio is magic switch to fix everything. As I said before, a vulnerable headbutt would have helped Fei Long win more easily. Cammy already can win as is, but would help her more too.
Just a note about conducting arguments in general, it’s ok to say “I disagree with the conclusion you reached on X” and explain why. You have tried to do that, so ok. But it’s generally not ok to question someone’s motives. I mean wtf do you know about my motives and what reason do you have to think I’m personally rigging things toward Honda? You’re really, really off the deep end there man. I have hardly even played honda in this game since release. How about if I claim that your motives for posting here are personal in nature and that you don’t care about the honda issue at all. See how annoying and bullshit that would be for me to claim? Stick to questioning the effect of decisions, not whether my intentions were some underhanded thing. That’s incredibly insulting.
I also find it totally stupid that you are judging anything whatsoever from whatever youtube video you saw of me play some particular honda match. I’m trying things out. I’m trying to humiliate bad player by doing stupid things over and over. It means nothing. In a real match, versus honda I have to sit back and stand fierce all day. That is the main move of the match. In many other matches, it’s mostly about rekka pressure.
^^
Didn’t you write a book called “Playing To Win”? That’s what I thought you were doing. (You have to admit that you did kinda set that expectation by writing that book, you know?)
BTW, as a sidebar, I find it interesting that you’re reaming James for thinking the worst of you, but you’re also reaming me for thinking the best of you. Which one of us should get a little consideration? And yeah…no man can know the content’s of another’s heart…sometimes, not even the person themselves knows what’s there. Marriage…it’ll teach you a lot about you.
Anyway, as far as the videos go, I can only go by the proof you give. I thought you played to win, so…there you go. Like I said, I’d love to see you in action against the best SRK has to offer…playing to win, of course. That would be great video.
Just don’t pull a Michael Johnson when he got smoked by Donovan Bailey in that silly “fastest man in the world” race that Bob Costas precipitated. “Oh! My hamstring!” That last sentence was a joke. You may laugh…now.
Fair, and duly noted. I apologize about that and I do formally retract my statement about character favoritism. That was wrong of me.
But Honda is a Super Defensive tank WITHOUT the Stored Oicho, that’s my main point. He’s still the character he is without it, and it doesn’t affect his flavor much at all, except making him slightly more balanced. Removing the Stored Oicho is a far cry from a knock-down Green Hand. It changes Honda’s game hardly a bit whereas the knock-down Green Hand AND awesome Short Chicken Wing changes Gief’s and Fei’s respective games by a ton.
So rather than argue about how I’m being a dick (which I was, I admit, again I sincerely sorry), please argue with my points. What parts of removing the Stored Oicho would severely hinder Honda’s ability to be a defensive tank? Wouldn’t its benefits outweigh whatever flavor Honda lost?
And you have to understand something about me as well. If Honda were the worst character in the game, I would have argued to STILL get rid of the Stored Oicho throw. From a conceptual standpoint, it shouldn’t exist in ANY fighting game. I’ve stated a billion times how the Stored Oicho completely destroys mind games, and we should be promoting them as much as possible. And if Honda sucked, I would have also added a bunch of things to help him get better. I even gave a bunch of ideas on how to make Honda better against Fireball characters while remaining a defensive tank, including keeping Honda’s Storable Super and tweaking the Headbutts to better utilize the Stored Super.
The problem is we’re coming at this from the same goal, but we come at it from very different angles. Probably completely opposite angles, for that matter. I’m interested in fixing the game and maintaining balance as well, but the methods either of us would use to accomplish this aren’t the methods the other person would agree to. You’d probably hate a version of ST I made as well. In the end, it just comes down to us agreeing to disagree. But the one thing I cannot ever get past is the Honda Stored Oicho. Because there is no way that removing it would affect Honda’s reputation and flavor in the least, that’s why I get all angry and claim character favoritism. Because I still have yet to see any real arguments against the points I’ve made about why it should have been removed.
Just to set it clear, I’m not using it as a basis for your whole game. But it was apparent that the Short Chicken Wing was the point of your main offense for Fei and NOT the Rekkas, despite you goofing around or whatever.
But if taht was an inaccurate representation on how you would attack with Fei Long, let me ask you directly, then: am I wrong in saying that Fei Long’s game is based around Short Chicken Wing MORE than the Rekkas in HD Remix? Is that not the main source of Fei’s offense now? I know it is for me, and when I fought against other good Fei Longs, that’s the main source of their offense too. Is yours different?
And if it IS the main source of offense now, doesn’t that mean the flavor of Fei Long has changed from Vanilla ST? In my eyes, it’s just a double standard between Fei Long and Honda. If removing the Stored Oicho hurts Honda’s flavor when I don’t think it barely affects his reputation as being a defensive tank, how can the claim that Fei Long is still played like Fei Long be believable if his entire offensive mindset has been altered?
- James
Sirlin - I wasnt really complaining about the hawk vs fei or gief vs fei match. I was just kinda saying how its a little silly that they can punish it fairly consistently if he did it against them (obviously, hed use it more against hawk, gief you really only need fierce button 
). I dont know if there is in between from vanilla st CW and HDR CW as recovery goes where it wasnt the same as vanilla st, but not as slow as hdr
fresh - i have not had a chance to play kuroppi 
id love to play him. and thelo actually.
Well…he added 5 frames of recovery, so…how about taking away 2 frames? Anyway, I still think juggling on hit would be the best way to go.
I’m sure Bob would love to play your Hawk. He’d probably play as Honda, though. 
James, fair enough, all is forgiven regarding the beginning of your post.
Let’s say hypothetically that Fei Long is all about short chicken wing. So what? Who cares? He was an offense character who used one move a lot, and now uses another move a lot. Big deal, it’s a new game. I don’t see why that would be a problem at all.
Further, I don’t even think it’s true. Against Chun Li’s I use it over and over, probably because they are bad and don’t know what to do. Against bad Bisons I do it too, but they could easily get out. In a real match though, it’s all about Rekkas. Against Ryu, for example the only thing on my mind is Rekka. If I am full screen, can I early jump a fireball so I won’t be swept when I land, then super or rekka just as I land to reach them? (Or jump straight up over one fireball, so I can safely jump over the next without being swept, then rekka.) Can I get them to hesitate briefly when I’m midscreen so I can rekka? It’s always about eeking out a few frames here and there to get in with Rekkas, then pressure with them. Damage is so big if I land it and safe if I don’t. Rekka, rekka, rekka.
I actually think you guys should be kind of ashamed of yourselves in this thread. Your “strategy thread” is not about strategy at all. If it were, you would be finding ways to win with what you have. Instead this thread is about wishing for things that aren’t there. I don’t see how that is going to help at all. Concentrate on using these longer range rekkas and finding how you can be effective with them. On how to use short chicken wing when you can get away with it. How you can beat grapplers already. How you can super (or threaten to super to stop them from doing anything) at times you couldn’t before. How you can get free damage from new juggles. How about you actually try make a strategy thread instead of whatever this is? Maybe a completely new thread that straightforwardly lists strategies, like how to go even with Zangief, how to get in on Ryu and what to do when you do get in, etc. Probably most important would be a guide to doing rekkas safely since people don’t seem to think you can. (fierce, strong, jab usually works…depends on distance…). Imagine how much better a group of Fei Long players there would be if that was the discussion as opposed to people asking for 2 frames less recovery on something.
I’m jut gonna highjack this thread for a minute and say THANK YOU to Sirlin for Blanka’s improved Rainbow Roll. 
Anyone that thinks RR is useless now is off their rocker.
To contribute to the strategy section of this thread, here’s why Fei can’t spam Chicken Wing all day on Chun:
- Neutral J.Lk beats it clean. Timed right, I’m sure that Neutral J.Hp does too, since the red hitbox extends even farther. J.Lk is easier though, because against a Fei player who doesn’t know any better, she can just hop straight up and do J.Lk all day.
I personally don’t know how to deal with this, because I hardly ever play Fei v Chun, and most Fei players I deal with don’t combat this head on. My best guess is to time the CW so that it’s coming upon her as she’s landing, but that requires you to anticipate it.
- Timed right, Far S.Hk will beat it clean, too. This used to be a very dangerous option in ST, because if you messed up, Fei could get the old Chicken Wing combo on you (if you failed somehow to beat CW with J.Lk, you would just get reset - not nearly as bad). Now, the opposite is true - Fei can deal more damage if he hits you out of the air, and you don’t want to be flailing around in the air against a good Fei player to begin with.
This isn’t incredibly hard to deal with, because Chun has to do this VERY early, almost before Fei even leaves the ground. Since S.Hk is so slow, if you think Chun is going to try and AA you with it, you can just hit her with Rekkas.
I don’t want to add fuel to the flame here, but as a Fei player (a rather decent one at that) I can’t begin to tell you how incredibly unfair a honda vs fei match really is. I get the "honda is a tank"motto but wasn’t Fei intended and designed as a agressive"in you’re face"character type…don’t you think you guys kind of dropped the ball when you attempted to"re-balance"him?
Evo for the 500th time now, Fei Long vs. Honda is closer than it was in ST, and it’s still terrible. We can’t fix every match. The huge number of matches that are better than they were will have to be enough for you. With another chance at it (that I’m guessing there won’t be), it could be made better by having vulnerability to headbutt or something. Also, you set a bad example for the thread by continuing to complain with a post that contributes nothing.
Compare this with shankin who posted a concrete thing about a match (how chun li can escape short chicken wing x 100). So yeah, a good chun li would not let you do that move all day, but I have yet to face any chun li’s in ranked who understand that, ha. Bison can stand jab in this situation or fierce psycho crusher to go through.
Psst…I’m not mad or anything, but you made the same mistake when I posted on your boards, too. It’s " skankin’ " with a K, not an H.
I’d argue fei is worst off agaisnt honda then he was in turbo, and in fact the overall opinion of fei from the players I’ve met is that he is noticibly weaker then his former counterpart. If you were really clueless about how to fix this match I can easily offer suggestions:
-
Any strength CW with invincible start up
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Faster rekka’s
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Jumping SST2 RH
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Rekka’s off any normal property from SSF2
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Knock down off of C.fierce
I don’t like derailing either, and I do respect u dave but in this case u oversighted how overpowered honda is in general.
Ken players are laughing at you right now