I find it supremely ironic that you would say this in a thread asking about such a game. Since when did people who wanted regular footsie-based fighting games become a minority? I am on SRK right?
Thank you for the conjecture (with a dose of condescension), but what is the basis of this point of view? A casual look at this forum, one of the most popular forums for fighting games on the internet, reveals a disdain for SF4 even amongst people for whom this is their first game. The nostalgia argument may have had some merit when the game was first released but how does it apply to a (decently large) segment of people who are already into the game?
Carrying on from the previous statement, why does that segment not factor into your breakdown of the situation? Is there not a segment of players that play fighting games (specifically SF4) at a low level who are not casual enough to care only about aesthetic? Do you not believe that these people exist? I mean it’s most of the population of SRK. You call them “semi-casuals” but ascribe to them the behaviour of sort of IQ depleted unwashed masses that only care about shiny things or hyperviolence.
I also don’t understand what you’re talking about with the aesthetic argument though. There are probably hundreds of thousands of possible unexplored intellectual properties and original ideas for games (that would apply to fighting games as well).
But here we come to the crux of the matter. The actual question I asked was why this was one of the only successful games of its kind that is not aped by a ton of wannabes? Not “omg where are my street fighter games!”. My actual desires for such a game do not factor into my curiosity for an answer, so no I did not like your answer at all; it did not seem to be relevant. Your further arguments in this post I also do not find to be reasonable. I still hold that position.
I already spoke about the indie titles as well. I do believe there is a future there, but that should be a separate discussion point. Anyway, I agree with you somewhat here.
Back in 90s this happened, they all failed and/or had to differentiate to survive.
I guess you’re ultimately asking “Why not try this again?”
Because the popularity is even smaller than it was in the 90s and the interest in SF-style games is even smaller. A few hundred people on SRK unhappy with SF4 that want something like it is not that many.
Because a niche market is hard to break into when your trying to go into a even smaller niche of SF-style that Capcom has a hold on with brand recognition both with SF and their own company name.
Why won’t a big company try to do it? It is better and more profitable to focus on the current or next big thing, not some fad popularity of a niche genre. Reward must be greater than risk.
Your most likely hope is for people like those making Skullgirls to make it because they want to and hope it is Western style (whatever this means).
Disagree, the success of SF4 has established a base of people who are at least potentially interested in such a game. Not to mention that this is SRK, which has always been the bastion of fighting games of this nature. The popularity is larger than it’s ever been, and in a much more powerful way because of online (both actual online play and online resources). I’m rather disappointed that you downplay the number of people as “hundreds”.
I don’t agree that this is that small a market based on the success of SF4. Not the sales that had it initially, but how it has endured. Maybe I’m too optimistic in thinking that once people actually start to get into fighters they care more about the games than the brand.
I mean if I accept this reasoning, that basically means any new Darkstalkers game is a fool’s venture. Despite it being a Capcom game, the characters (and the game) are relatively unknown in the western market. The huge signature thread is basically a waste of time and the game will be dead in the water sales-wise (in America at least) if this is true. So forgive me for not being swayed.
The risk argument is palatable, I can accept it, but not the reason given for it being a risk (niche genre, fad etc.). I’m not quite satisfied with my own views on the reason behind it, but this makes even less sense to me.
and this is where you are wrong, the majority of these people are interested on SF4, not fighting games in general
Wrong again, a bastion to CAPCOM fighting games (SF and Marvel to be more precise), despite the claims of Mr. Wizzard that srk is a fighting game community not a capcom’s fighting game community
Some of the characters are loosely based on popular horror characters (Werewolf/Wolfman, Frankenstine’s Monster, Dracula/Vampire, Little Red Riding Hood, Abominable Snowman, mummies, creature from the Black Lagoon) along with recent appearances in Marvel vs Capcom 3. Hard to say they are unknown.
You’re ignore the power of Capcom’s name for what reason?
With all due respect Hecatom, you reiterate this every chance you get. I do not believe your point of view is objective when some of your posts seem to be a Capcom vendetta or something. You’ve been saying this for years, I’ve been reading it for years and I disagree with it as strongly as I did the first time I saw it. This community has given at least a semblance of life to the most obscure of games (World Heroes Perfect, TMNT, Karnov’s Revenge etc.) for no other reason except that they were fighting games to explore.
So are you saying they are well-known then? Somewhat well-known? What? It doesn’t change the point that it doesn’t have the obvious brand recognition Street Fighter carries right? Whether a character is based on Frankenstein’s monster doesn’t mean your regular joe or whatever will be able to name or identify the character. In fact, doesn’t this help my point that there are many possible properties or ideas to explore that could have aesthetic appeal for the hypothetical “casual” gamer?
I don’t believe their name is enough to push a fighting game to the heights of success. If they had sold the SF property and someone else had made Street Fighter 4, do you think it would not have been as successful?
and again, here is the proble, you ar confusing a bunch of people who are true enthusiast of the genre, with the whole market of cassuals that bought SF$ because the nostalgia or the SF factor or whatever
the most ironic thing is that you seem to want more clones of SF yet you are sure that capcom developing a new darkstalkers could be ludicrous, if you think that capcom couldnt make a succesful DS wich is a somehow knew franchise, what do make you believe that a company without a background on the genre would be able to sell a new fighting game?
My post specifically addressed what you said about this community, SRK. Nevertheless you are ignoring a large segment of people who lie between those true enthusiasts and the nostalgia factor retards. In either case, those enthusiasts are important parts of SRK and to claim that this is a Capcom community was disingenuous and unwarranted. The people responsible for exploring and pushing WHP were Keits and Josh btw.
How can you misread my posts and intentions so badly? **I said Mr X’s point would lead someone to believe that Darkstalkers would be unsuccessful. **I personally think it will do great.
They look familiar/recognizable so they are well-known through immitation. They were well known before Darkstalkers existed. Even if you don’t know the Werewolf’s name is John Talbain, you probably recognize it’s a werewolf without ever having played the game before.
So you don’t believe people buy/try games out based on the company name on the cover?
I have addressed this, perhaps you posted before my edit.
**Edit: **I see you made an edit of your own! Anyway, this just leads to my other contention with the views expressed in this thread; if such a recognizable aesthetic can push games (specifically fighters), where is the risk in exploring this for other devs/publishers?
I don’t believe that a company name is enough to make a fighting game successful (my measure of success goes beyond sales, but that is irrelevant). How you think that leads to what you said I don’t know. I’ll illustrate with an example. Arc System Works is a relatively big name in fighters, do you agree? Battle Fantasia was a disaster compared to their previous releases. A company name isn’t enough to push a fighting game to success no.
By the way, that is also a game full of western fantasy tropes (Pirate captain, Black Knight et al). Perhaps that relates to the Darkstalkers discussion.
yet that segment is not near as big as you would like to think, the proof of it is the difference of sale numbers between SF and whatever fighting game series that you want to pick
we would see when kof13 drops into consoles on october
my bad then
i think that BF is an interesting case
it had some stuff that made the game a little dumb that where fixed for the console release, yet were never made avaible for the arcade version, add that asw never tried to support their game like they did with GG for example putting it on the SBO line up, plus the character design is not for everyone, hell if you read interviews with the producer you would notice that even the dev team hated watson, and more importantly, it was a game that deviated from the ASW formula (an SF clone, sort off)
it doesnt help that the game is considered very simple, wich is actually far from the truth
Okay fair enough, I apologize for being abrasive Hecatom. I don’t think KoFXIII is the best example to pick in this particular instance. It doesn’t emphasize footsies (okay, a bit), it’s full of metrosexual looking characters, has no nostalgia value to american arcade-goers and it’s by SNK. On every point, whether brought up by me or someone else this game fails. Fair enough though, we’ll see. I feel it will do reasonably, but I don’t have anything to base that feeling on. Just optimism.
**Edit: **So about Battle Fantasia, you agree that the ArcSys brand which is well established in fighters by this point could not push this game anywhere in the world? I do agree that it is an interesting case, but my point that you can’t push games (especially fighters) based on a developer name stands I believe.
Edit2: You’ll have to excuse me. I would be glad to continue this exchange at a later time, but I can’t expend any more energy just on this thread for now.
Arc System Works is a big name within the niche genre of fighting games, yes.
Capcom is a global name, with a larger market share in the gaming industry than ASW. Capcom is successful in multiple genres, regarded as the father of fighting games and survival horror genre with many more years in the industry than most companies. It is a much larger name on a global scale than ASW. Capcom’s name means a whole fucking lot when they attach it to something.
i think that is like they didnt tried
and while i agree that you cant push games only based on the developers name, its also true that many stick with what they know, people would be more willing to embrace a game developed by capcom than a game developed by x company specially if said game is their first attempt in the genre
i still believe that you can sell anything if you know how to market it, but having a big name behind surely helps
This community has also segregated and ostracized these same games and their players for essentially not being “Street Fighter”. KoF has always gotten hate here for some reason (06’er). Arcana Heart, Aquapazza, Melty Blood, even BlazBlue (poor man’s GG) are always going to be called anime(used in a negative fashion)/loli/pedo/poverty fighters (going like SF2 wasn’t “anime”-styled for it’s day). The communities of Tekken and Guilty Gear were at least big or tough enough to be able to mention their games outside their respective boards/threads without expecting some kind of backlash (it’s not as bad as it was from what I remember due to w/e happened in '08, but it’s not exactly welcoming).
This community will have to stop splitting an already niche community into even smaller factions and be a bit more accepting to non-SF/Capcom fighters before any could hope to get wider support and succeed in the wider VGC.
I personally don’t see a new Darkstalkers game going anywhere right now. While it’s got the Capcom logo on it, it doesn’t have Ryu and Friends in it, putting the breaks on right there. Some may be interested if they recognized Morrigan, Felicia , or Lei-Lei from MvC3, but unless they put a Evil Ryu, Zombie Chun Li and Vampire Akuma cameo in there, or ride on the tail end of the vampire/werewolf craze, most would probably look at it and put it right back on the shelf and pick up SSFxT:2013.
The Capcom brand is what makes people look at the game. The Street Fighter brand is what makes them buy. Without both, I find it unlikely it would sell even a fraction of what it could.
Ignore all this thread if you’re not interested. Mash the report button on people/posts you think are getting out of hand. It is a dumb thread IMHO, but not posting in it is a good way to let it die.
i think a new darkstalkers game would sell about 1/4 whatever SUPER street fighter 4 sold. is that enough sales to warrant a new game? i hope so. but it’s probably not.
You’re looking at games developed by Japanese developers for a Japanese arcade environment. The market is completely different and you don’t seem to have a real point of reference.
Street Fighter 4 was aimed directly at the western audience, it’s no small coincidence that Blazeblue, Mortal Kombat, and Streetfighter were the only fighters with large-scale advertising campaigns outside of Asia, and that they were the major sales successes in the west.
Japanese players simply DON’T buy home versions of arcade games, they have the arcade near them so they just go there and play. If they want a new game they just put their yen in a different machine.
Regarding arcade sales, SF4 did rather mediocre, it was consistently outranked in arcadia standings by games like VF, Melty Blood, Guilty Gear Accent Core, Tekken 6, Blazeblue, and Gundam versus Gundam. This is why Super was a disc only release, capcom did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it wasn’t worth it. This is also why Marvel 3 never had an arcade release, and why it’s advertisements were small and cheap in Japan. Quite simply, they are the target deomographic, and they asked for these games.
Please stop assuming that because you have a certain world view, and that you understand the local environment that you have a global understanding of economics and culture; this is why people make fun of Americans. Please go out and experience other cultures and games, you have a view that is hilariously ignorant.