What are your thoughts on Brawl+

[Cyntalan]

Just to give you an idea on the kind of disconnect we have between us here and Smashboards, I’ll take a look at the stages in the CB/B list. Keep in mind that a lot of the stages not in play I can relate to while items are not in play, as items pretty much destroy all forms of camping and runaway.

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet (moved from C): don’t remember what this stage is

Not quite sure why this one is hated on, unless it’s just the general hate on stages that change.

Green Greens: Exploding boxes falling from the sky, insanely low ceiling, block partitions make camping a dominant strategy

Bomb blocks… oh how you destroy thee… when you, ya know, step into the path at the worst interval possible. Seems like a risk/reward thing there. Items make this stage doable removing the camping problem, and what’s left just seems like added strategy. Chuck your opponent off the stage w/ a back throw and attempt to ledgeguard, or chuck 'em forward in hopes a falling bomb block will take care of 'em? Note that the quantity of bomb blocks dropping as opposed to star blocks are tiny by comparison.

Luigi’s Mansion (moved from C): This stage is usually allowed as a counterpick, but it’s banned because the ceilings make MK’s dair camping unbeatable. An argument can be made that you simply need to destroy the house, but it regenerates within half a minute usually.

Items fix this shit fairly well.

Port Town Aero Dive

Cars come at timed intervals, nothing’s overly threatening… only thing I see causing hate is that the stage changes. Counterpick for sure, though.

Yoshi’s Island (Pipes) (moved from C)

Items stop chaingrabbing shenanigans to a degree too. At best, 14 seconds of grabbing before running the risk of blowing your fool ass up. Considering you and your opponent are right next to each other, that only condenses the item spawn locations even more. Couple in the fact that while once you’ve landed that grab, it may have spelt doom, you still have to grab it. The risk builds insanely after about 5 seconds of chaingrabs in almost every case that you actually land one.

Norfair (moved from C): The plethora of ledges and platforms makes planking and ledgecamping and daircamping to avoid the opponent much too simple.

Items.

Banned
75m:

Items. I hate this stage, and I know why it’s hated by most, but items really do fix this.

Big Blue

Should be counterpick. Some characters getting this stage at random are just plain screwed, but having it selectable should still be.

Bridge of Eldin: DDD’s chaingrab is an autokill, as it is a walk-off stage

Items.

Corneria (moved from C): the ships randomly hit you?

Umm… no. This just seems like a whine. It’s not like you don’t know the shit’s comin’.

Flat Zone 2: DDD’s chaingrab, insanely small

Hate this stage with a passion, but I still think it can fit as a counterpick due exactly to that small size. Gives certain characters that would otherwise need to build up damage greatly to make a kill a better chance at it.

Green Hill Zone (moved from C): DDD’s chaingrab

Items. Hate this stage too, being a Pikachu main. The destructable platform nullifies my damn thundershocks…

Hanenbow

Items. Still belongs as a counterpick though.

Hyrule Temple: Stage is simply too large and makes running away/camping too easy as long as your character is faster. Sonic/Fox automatically win on this stage.

Items.

Mario Bros.: random enemies which HURT

This is probably the one stage I’d say to outright kick out aside from WarioWare just because it really breaks the game. In different ways, mind you. This stage remains Smash for about 30 seconds and then becomes a chucking game until game set or time out. It’s no longer Smash.

Mario Circuit (moved from C/B): The cars go everywhere except for corners, which makes camping easy. Also, DDD’s chaingrab.

The cars go at extraordinarily slow speeds and predictable intervals. Even Ganon can keep a full game goin’ and avoid this shit. Chaingrab shenanigans are nullified by items.

Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II: The center wall makes camping the dominant strategy.

This is one stage even items have a hard time fixing, but still can. I’m still debating over this stage myself, but I think MKI should be allowed, not MKII.

New Pork City: Too large, too easy to run away

Items help this greatly, though I can understand even with 'em on some people not wanting this stage in.

Onett (moved from C/B): DDD’s wall chaingrab

Items.

Rumble Falls

Worthwhile as a counterpick, but same reasons as to Big Blue

Shadow Moses: DDD’s wallchaingrab

Items.

Skyworld (moved from C/B): Circle camping is too easy, the platforms make you invulnerable from below, making it easy to run away.

Items.

Spear Pillar: Circle camping with a faster character is too easy

Items.

The Summit: looooooooooooooool

Items.

Wario Ware: You know this

You know, if it wasn’t for the fact that the minigames gave out different rewards to identical successes, I’d be all for this stage. But when both complete the request and one gets a piece of food while the other gets mushroom’d/star’d… that’s too much IMO.

I think pretty much the philosphy here would ban, at most, 4 stages, and have all but maybe 8 of 'em in random. Meanwhile, you guys have 4 on random, and at most 30 on counterpick, but more like 15. Damn near the exact opposite.

[System_1]

yeah

that’s cuz we don’t play with items.

we’ll save the items debate for another thread.

in the meantime, can we agree that without items, those stages are for the most part broken?

[Cyntalan]

in the meantime, can we agree that without items, those stages are for the most part broken?

Oh I fully agree. Without items, your stage list is pretty understandable. It’s just that… well… it wouldn’t have to BE that way if you just toughened up and just kept trudging through with the items.

[System_1]

Warioware is the only good example…

Tell me, how are almost 30 stages in the game somehow such for competitive play. You’d have a point at, say, 25%, or even 50%, but 75% is too much and I think that you and the rest Smash Bros community has been looking at stages wrong. When I see more then 25% of the stages in tournament play for real testing, then I can say you guys have a point. At this point, you’re just ban happy.

Actually there are more examples. Take a stage like Rumble Falls, you have to focus more on actually moving with the stage and living than actually fighting the other person. Walk off stages make DDD ridiculously broken, or either both characters run to different corners of the stage, waiting for the other to approach and get a quick grab kill. Green Greens and Corneria have very low ceilings and short walls, which makes characters with easy star KO moves, or high horizontal kill potential insane (Snake and Meta Knight instantly come to mind), 75mm just results in running away, as does Hyrule Temple. I could go on, but Arrow of God covered alot of it in his post.

It’s obvious you don’t understand the definition of tiers. Once again, tiers only come into play when players are of equal skill and there are no external factors. Mario will win if the player better then the Dedede player. Match-ups are really how you play them. Mario can win if he just knows the match-up better. Again, this is the problem. Smash players don’t understand tries and believe low tier always lose. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as no one will play the low tier characters.

True Mario will win if he is a better player, but at a high level of play Mario stands no chance. A decent DDD could rape a beast Mario. Mario could fireball all day long and DDD could just avoid it. Mario has few approach options, because if he gets grabbed then he is losing a stock.

Low Tiers don’t always lose. As I said I play tournament attenders all day long, and my Mario/Falcon can go head to head with some of their best characters. You have amazing low tier players like Rebaz, Boss (who has beaten Ally before using Luigi), and Santi. But at the end of the day people like M2K, AdHd, Ally, and MikeHaze, are always gonna stay on top, because they have mad skill and play amazing characters. This is just a fact of life. Boss is just as beast as Ally, he has proven so, but its much more of a job to pick Mario and win, than it is to pick Meta Knight and win.

Compare it to Street Fighter. You may love Dan, and who is gonna tell you you can’t play Dan? Well no one can stop you. Play Dan all you want. You can be the best Dan player in the world, but if you go up against a decent Ryu, Rufus, Akuma, or Sagat then your chances of losing are alot lower.

You obviously don’t know items.

Guess not.

Wghy is it customary for Smash plays to give one scenario and then say it’s this way 100% of the time. Someone tell me.

Hey, guess what. DODGE. It’s no excuse that you lost. You got hit. If they only one by getting hit by a regular attacks that you could dodge, would you then think those attacks were imbalanced. You can dodge items. You can sheild them, and use them for yourself.

True. Dodging is always nice, I use quite often. I have recently picked up a Diddy and can definitely catch items out of the air on whim. I never said items were impossible to stop, or truly unbeatable. They just add to much randomness. In a match for large sums of money, would you want to lose because you picked up a hammer and the head fell off? Then your opponent kills you because there isnt alot you can do? What if an exploding capsule fell on your head and you died? What happens when an item appears next to your opponent, and gives them the advantage?

Items are too random. Yes you can throw them, use them, dodge them. At the end of the day there are factors beyond that that need to be considered. If you are playing for large amounts of money, the last thing you want is to know you lost because of circumstances outside of your control and outside of your opponents control. Its just not fair to anyone.

Also, things in a game shouldn’t be banned unless they break the risk/reward system. When something offers to great of a reward to where the action has no negative alternative, then it is bad. Battering items are not bad because throwing an item has risk and rewards with it. The reward is you get a strong projectile. The risk is that the opponent now had your item. It’s banned when the rewards outweigh the risk by a great margin. Akuma in SF2 would be like this as he has a lot of broken **** making him have little risk. Given the opportunity, Akuma is a better pick and has no risk associated with him. Thus, he’s banned.

True akuma was broken, he clearly outweighed risk/reward. I view items as the same way. Why use any of your basic attacks when you can just spam items on the other side of the stage? What skill does that really take? As in the example I used earlier (not to say that happens 100% of the time, and not saying that a noob will always win) it makes it easier for newbies to pick up the game and dominate. It doesn’t promise a win, but makes it much more in sight, and that closes the skill gap between pros and noobs. Items are unpredictable, and thus make strategy alot harder to formulate, anything could happen and could totally throw off your game, and cause you to lose completely. Smash is a momentum based game. If you loose momentum it is extremely hard to get it back sometimes, and I wouldn’t want something that only the game had control over deciding if I am picking up a check at the end of the day.

When the competitive community first started, it was customary for competitive players to tell others what they are doing wrong,. They needed to pick a high tier character. They needed to learn to wavedash. They needed to not play with items. It did happen. This is why a lot of Smash fans hate the competitive community because these people enjoy playing that way and had no interest in changing.

Not to sound like a douche or anything, but that is kind of the competitive communities job. I mean they never said you had to do any of that. Any time a topic like this arises SBR-B makes sure that everyone knows they can play the game however they please. They are just saying if you want to be better then learn the aforementioned things. If you don’t want to get better then thats fine too, but dont come around talking about how much better you are at the game, and then spout noob comments (which happens alot more than one would think)

At the end of the day it is the competitive community’s job to keep things fair for all players. They rule out ANY possibility of randomness affecting your game. What if my hammer head falls off and my opponent takes advantage of that? Who cares. Items are off all you have to worry about is if you are better than the other person. What happens when the guy picks DDD and takes me to Eldin Bridge and chain grabs me to death? Who cares. Eldin bridge is banned to stop that from happening. All you have to worry about is if the other person has an edge in his game.

The competitive community just makes it so that, at the end of the day, its one player’s skill vs another player’s skill that determines who gets the money.

[System_1]

aww i was actually hoping the topic would die with Cynt’s post.

:[[

[Cyntalan]

aww i was actually hoping the topic would die with Cynt’s post.

:[[

Don’t worry. I’d blast kata for the item ignorance again but it’s not worth it. Hopefully it’ll die with THIS post of mine.

[Giza]

[media=youtube]MxA9jHvfWPc"[/media]

[MRbloke67]

Super Smash Bros Melee HD Remix

[Colossus_King]

Brawl+ is pretty fun but I still prefer the main game B+ just feels like whoever gets the biggest combo first wins and I dont prefer that type of game.

[Gyko]

I think Brawl+ is a fun game but I don’t feel it will have a place in the competitive community solely because its not an actual game. Its a modification.

Brawl+ keeps all the good things Brawl brought in like free air dodging and more character mobility and removed bad things like reduced hitstun and tripping. Although it did not remove foot stool (air tripping) and chain grabbing. L-Cancelling is automatic now which I don’t like and wavedashing hasn’t been returned.

What I think is that if you want to play faster Smash game but don’t have a lot of time to commit then play Brawl+ since its pretty fun anyway and its easy to get back into unlike the first two. But if you wanna play Brawl play Brawl and if you want Melee there’s nothing like the real thing. Brawl+ is a compromise.

[jarediscool]

brawl+ is a nice idea. but then game will never be a good competitive game

[Cyntalan]

brawl+ is a nice idea. but then game will never be a good competitive game

Not a good one now, so why not mugen it up?

[EPsilon933]

brawl+ is a nice idea. but then game will never be a good competitive game

That’s why they invented Project M.

[BEES_1]

if they ever finish the damn thing at least

[EPsilon933]

if they ever finish the damn thing at least

They think they’ll be done with it by the time Pound 5 happens, which would be the perfect release day anyways. (They told me this back in like July, I don’t know if it still holds true)

[BEES_1]

Pound 5 is in February

that means it will take them over a year after they started before a release, and that’s a beta release probably, with another year of feature-cleanup and testing

it had better be good if it takes that long…

[Cyntalan]

Now see, [media=youtube]Hit0_YO8c8I"[/media] is what I’m talkin’ about. Smash Mugen, away!

[EPsilon933]

Now see, [media=youtube]Hit0_YO8c8I"[/media] is what I’m talkin’ about. Smash Mugen, away!

Imo, when hacking is done like this, it really destroys the game.

[Cyntalan]

Imo, when hacking is done like this, it really destroys the game.

pff, how can you destroy a game that’s already been destroyed WITHOUT hacking? If anything, this makes it hilariously awesome. Can’t wait to see Omega Tom Hanks in Smash.

[EPsilon933]

pff, how can you destroy a game that’s already been destroyed WITHOUT hacking? If anything, this makes it hilariously awesome. Can’t wait to see Omega Tom Hanks in Smash.

By forcing something that doesn’t fit into the game. If anything this makes Brawl into a joke. I don’t know about you all, but I think regular Brawl doesn’t suck as hard as people like to say it does.