First, understand that the “Smash community” hates the “competitive community.” You are not really part of our community you have to split up the two. We all thought the rule set was sensible. Competitive Smash players are so set in their ways that they would never consider items and would bitch and moan.
Allow me to show you the problem with your community
Brawl comes out. Can items be legal now
Smashboards:Items are random. They are not fair. BAN
Shoruken:Let’s find some stuff out about items does research
Keits:Hey guys, check out all this stuff I found out!
Smashboard never gave items a chance and just banned them. EVO is done in conjunction with SRK (I believe, or they have the same mindset) so they would give items a try. The competitive Smash community made a BIG deal out of it and, rather then trying items and saying how they either liked it or not, got themselves almost permanently thrown out of EVO.
Part of the reason Smash fans hate the competitive community is their ban happy nature (and then them calling us the scrubs). Had competitive Smash tried EVO’s rule set and not acted like the little kids you all are, it would have gone over smoothly. We all thought the rule set was understandable. You all threw a temper tantrum.
lol Smashchu, you seem to be implying that the only reason that people from the smash community didnt like the Evo 2008 ruleset was because of items. This is far from the truth.
No, but it is the root of the “problem”. With items came stages you don’t like as they’re now valid, came a different stock/time set that was closer to “default” and helped mitigate any whining, different counterpick options to not horribly outbalance counterpicking, sudden death to make one-hit->runaway invalid, not to mention also there by default… a lot of shit that wouldn’t work all that well if they weren’t there.
Smashboards had a problem with the “play it first, then consider removing/changing” concept, 'cause from day 1 of the game’s announcement of the game, it was inferred that the exact same ruleset ideas would carry over from Melee. People so stuck in their ways that have never experienced a new game in their series before, and they took the backwards approach compared to how we would have (and did).
Oh sure, a few here and there spent a couple days of goofing off with shit under the pretense of “experimenting”, but the fact remains that what Smashchu summarized above was exactly what happened. You guys ‘experimented’ just to make it appear you tried to find validity, supposedly failed due to the expectations you had, while we here truly experimented, liked what we saw, stuck it out to try and break it coming from OUR expectations of what we’d find bad, failed, went with it.
That wasn’t the only problems people had. Starting one smashville all the time wasn’t exactly the best choice either. The counterpicking system during evo 2008 was far worse than any I had ever seen in any smash tournament, including terrible tournaments Ive been to at schools. It limited your character options because if your character had one terrible stage than you basically lost the second match if you managed to win the first. Also sudden death was not the deciding factor in the Evo 2008 matches, and plenty of games were won by stalling out the clock. The Evo 2008 rules were terrible and should have been planned out better. Both smash boards and these boards went about creating these rules in a terrible manner which led to it just being a hazardous jumble of crap.
You seem to be directing me as if I am a typical member of the smash boards. This is not true and if you were to look at my posts at the time of Evo 2008 you would see that I definitely did not support this kind of behavior. Beyond that, there were a few offline tournaments (3 I know of, but 2 were small and the other sucked) held by people in the smash board community to test out item sets. Some of them were cut down a lot more than Evo 2008 were but had quite a bit of documentation. Sadly these item sets ended up being ignored by the majority of both communities even though they were far superior sets that had a lot more time put into their creation. Smash board members acted like dicks for the most part, but so did the members here. I was every disappointed by the behavior of both communities especially since I expected better from SRK. I had already given up hope that the majority of the smashboards would react well the moment that Gimpyfish started squakin’ his yapper late February. Only a few people from both sides of the community were working on experimenting well. SRK did it mostly online and got some data that is now regarded as quite poor, heck it was considered poor even then, by most of the competitive item brawl player. The real problem was lack of communication between the two communities, and the fact that the stupid people at the smash boards are often the loudest.
This is WAY off topic. I’m sorry I brought all this up.
My bad on trying to lump you in w/ the Smashboards guys. So used to seeing posts in here coming from 'em I just assume the worst when I go to debate with someone on these threads. :razz:
I’m in full agreement that 2k8 was lame, but because the compromise wasn’t even that, but just a hodgepodge of fail. Falling somewhere in the middle and doing all these various alterations to make it somewhere between just made both sides unhappy.
Oh, and fuck Mr. “$50/hr to play me outside a tourney” Gimpyfish. Seriously.
I agree with most of this, but I would like to add one thing. It appears to me that SBR’s intent of each game is to justify their well known conclusions. Easy, the entire back room thinks that FD should be the stage to play at and all others should get the ban hammer. Take SBR member Overswarm’s statement on the 29th of December on stages:
And this little gem:
Now consider Melee. They(SBR) redid the rules to the game and they shrunk the stage list down to a grand total of nine stages. Now tell me why in the hell do you have five neutrals and only four counter pick stages? A lot more healthier choice is to have equal parts of starter and counter pick stages or even having a unbalanced mix of counter picks to starters in the direction of counter picks, but all evidence seems to be pointing in the fact that SBR doesn’t care and is ban happy for what ever reason.
As a final thought on the stages, there is a reason why there are so many stages in Brawl. Because of the Balance issue. Everyone has a fighting chance on one stage or another, and prove it to yourself by picking a low tier character and fighting a high tier character on a banned stage and you will see that the low tier character has a fighting chance given the circumstance.
Why complain about stages? I mean, as far as I know, Street Fighter only has 1 stage. A flat surface with boundaries on both ends.
Actually, FD is one of the more imbalanced stages in Brawl (with many characters counterpicking it). The SBR does not think that FD is the only legal stage, despite what you might think.
As for your second paragraph, I don’t know what you mean by the word “healthy.” What does “a lot more healthier choice” mean? Healthy for who? If you mean healthy for the metagame, then you’re very incorrect. Certain stages provide unfair, and yes, bannable advantages for certain characters, like Puff on Mute City, Fox on Green Greens, two formerly available counterpicks. Is it fair that in a tournament set, you’re guaranteed at least 1 win just because you play a certain character? Obviously not. Looking it at it differently, is it fair that you’re guaranteed to lose at least one game because of the character you play (ICs on Rainbow Cruise, Ganondorf on Pokefloats)? I definitely still say no. It’s not being ban happy, it’s being fair to all players. The last stagelist had been around for 2 years and even before MLG carried Smash, so there are a lot of data and tournament results providing evidence.
Your closing statement is absolutely ludicrous. Your argument is stupid if you look at it from the opposite end. True, on certain stages a low tier might have a fighting chance, although I can’t think of any examples where this is true, perhaps you could provide one. By your argument, there will also be stages that the high tier character will do well on and will only crush the low tier character harder. I don’t see what proving that “everyone has a fighting chance on one stage” accomplishes. Yes, perhaps it’s true. So what? The high tier character is still better will only come back with his counterpick and win harder than usual. This repeats and ends only in a ridiculous cycle of picking idiotic and imbalanced stages, with the low tier character still losing because of the automatic neutral stage choice in the beginning.
First understand that this is terribly incorrect. If this is what you are basing your entire point on then you are so very wrong. You all thought the ruleset was sensible, but whose choice is it really? The Pro Street Fighter Players or the Pro Smash Players? Who do you think should be making the rules concerning a professional Smash tournament?
Once again you are grossly underestimating the Smash community. The fact that you say items were just banned and not considered shows that you are just talking, and don’t really have any idea what you’re talking about.
Have you played with the items on smash? A hammer than makes you essentially invincible, and gives you a one hit kill, bombs that are also a one hit kill, smash balls, soccer balls, exploding capsules…how do those things NOT unbalance the game severely?
Once again you are just wrong. The Smash community has nothing against any other community, but all the other communities seem to hate Smash because of their “ban happy nature”. What if you went to a Street Fighter Tournament where noobs were telling you how to play your game? Would you even want to stay there and play? Probably not. Bottom line is that the Smash community is responsible for Smash. They break the game open and analyze it to points that I have never seen before. They know more about the game than you could ever shake a stick at, and you think that your opinion is better than theirs?
I have to admit I am confused by your comment. What am I 2 years late on? His comment was posted 7 days ago? Also I don’t know how I sound like a broken record as no one else has responded to him saying the things I said.
Because Smash has 41 stages and you’re playing with less then half that. Some thing is wrong there.
This post is rediculos. It only makes sense in the context that low tier characters have no way of winning. Tier only apply when players are of equal skill and there are no other factors being involved. I’m sick of Smash players thinking the top tier will always win. That is never true. Also, if stages have no barring on the results and the top tier will win, why not allow all stages to be playable. If stage is not something that varies between alternatives, then it should be allowed.
The thread shows there is no logical reason to ban items. It is only a preference. Most of what I said is logical stuff since Brawl was released. The rules for Melee were carried over for no consideration. They just made BS excuses like glide tossing (which I did not see in the EVO videos or online where items are in 90% of the matches).
How about this. Would you like to talking to some friends, and then a tournament player come in and tell you how to play the game and says everything you’re doing is wrong. Well guess what, that is what the competitive community does. It does not acknowledge that we play the game differently and are happy picking any character we like. Most players like items, like the stages, play 4vs and don’t care to hear how our favorite characters suck and we should only chose one of five top tier characters. This is the reason Smash hates it’s competitive community. You guys are the not the say all on Smash as most of use disagree with you. Encyclopedia Dramatica’s page is a good representation of how the rest of use feel.
Not if 75% of them suck for a competitive environment. Take Wario Ware for example. Great stage pretty much, but the side games make it terrible for testing a player’s skill. Player A and Player B are both on their last stock. Player A begins destroying Player B and has a hefty advantage. All of a sudden a mini-game comes up a both characters complete it. Player A, who was previously winning by a large margin, receives the Super Mushroom abilities, while Player B who was getting raped gets Starman abilities. Because of the small stage, and invincibility, Player B can easily pressure the now larger Player A to his death with little threat of retaliation. So Player A was winning and had the match in the bag, but because of random circumstances that were outside of the control of both players, he lost, and now instead of having a good shot at the prize money, could have no shot.
Most of the time low tier characters don’t have a good chance of winning. This has nothing to do with skill gap, but rather large gaps in the tier list itself. Mario has a pretty bad matchup against DDD. DDD has a destructive chain grab on Mario, which is pretty easily and consistently landed, and a DDD with much less skill can shut down a pretty decent Mario any day of the week. Not to say there aren’t low tier people out there. I actually don’t play any high tier characters at all, but the likelihood of a low-tier mainer going to a tourny and winning against the likes of Metaknight and Snake are pretty low.
In all fairness it doesn’t really give a strong case for items either. It just tells which items do what, and so on and so forth. The main issue with items is that they cause a terrible unbalance in the game. A person can win a tournament with little skill involved by using some of the items in the game.
Example: Out of my group of smashing buddies, I am by far the best. I had a few of my friends over and one of them has never really played smash, maybe a total of 15 matches in his whole life. We decided to make it a little more enjoyable, and less serious, that we would play with items. Long story short my inexperienced friend was only capable of throwing items, and easily came in second everytime.
By banning items you can count out the unbalanced portions of the game, and create a more Street Fighteresque game. One guy vs. Another guy with their best characters, going at it, to see who’s the better player. Items throw in a great deal of randomness that distracts from the actual skill that it takes to master a character.
Most people also bought the game to play casually, have no interest in ever going to a tournament, and really only play for shits and giggles. No one ever said you couldn’t pick a character you like. Go ahead. I play Toon Link, who is in the very middle of the tier list, Mario, who is low tier, and Captain Falcon, who is the second worst in the game. I love them all dearly and will play them forever, and to the best of my ability, but shitty characters are shit. My favorites don’t have to be the best, makes me feel a hell of alot better when I rape the shit out of top tiers lol.
Also, to tie this into the actual topic, brawl+ is the answer to alot of these issues. Sure its a mod, but its done in the vane of series like Street Fighter that constantly update their game in order to ensure balance. Nintendo isn’t really on board with realeasing patches and the like, so people from the community have gotten together and began balancing the roster, to make as many viable characters as possible.
Also thanks for not being a douche bag. I’ve seen people take pretty bad heat around here, but your post wasn’t as holier than thou as I had expected, and thanks for that.
In addition to what kat said, allowing all stages would just be a waste of time.
You’d have two players constantly going back and forth playing on luck-based stages unsuited for competition, or stages that would allow for unbeatable and broken strategies. It would turn from a test of skill and matchup knowledge into a test of luck and how best to abuse the stage. Obviously this is not what a competitive game which awards money to winners wants, so we have stagelists.
You also didn’t bother to finish your point. “Your pos”
As Kat said, nobody cares if you and your friends want to play items-on free for alls on Hanenbow. It’s not like smashboards has a telekinetic power over players to prevent them from doing such things. But when you play for money, the fairest possible enviroment must be provided so that all players can play on even grounds, barring character. You can do whatever the fuck you want but when money is on the line, a fair ruleset must be put into place. Otherwise, it’s no better than gambling.
Tell me, how are almost 30 stages in the game somehow such for competitive play. You’d have a point at, say, 25%, or even 50%, but 75% is too much and I think that you and the rest Smash Bros community has been looking at stages wrong. When I see more then 25% of the stages in tournament play for real testing, then I can say you guys have a point. At this point, you’re just ban happy.
It’s obvious you don’t understand the definition of tiers. Once again, tiers only come into play when players are of equal skill and there are no external factors. Mario will win if the player better then the Dedede player. Match-ups are really how you play them. Mario can win if he just knows the match-up better. Again, this is the problem. Smash players don’t understand tries and believe low tier always lose. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as no one will play the low tier characters.
You obviously don’t know items.
Wghy is it customary for Smash plays to give one scenario and then say it’s this way 100% of the time. Someone tell me.
Hey, guess what. DODGE. It’s no excuse that you lost. You got hit. If they only one by getting hit by a regular attacks that you could dodge, would you then think those attacks were imbalanced. You can dodge items. You can sheild them, and use them for yourself.
Gi read the thread and you’ll see what your dead wrong.
Also, things in a game shouldn’t be banned unless they break the risk/reward system. When something offers to great of a reward to where the action has no negative alternative, then it is bad. Battering items are not bad because throwing an item has risk and rewards with it. The reward is you get a strong projectile. The risk is that the opponent now had your item. It’s banned when the rewards outweigh the risk by a great margin. Akuma in SF2 would be like this as he has a lot of broken **** making him have little risk. Given the opportunity, Akuma is a better pick and has no risk associated with him. Thus, he’s banned.
When the competitive community first started, it was customary for competitive players to tell others what they are doing wrong,. They needed to pick a high tier character. They needed to learn to wavedash. They needed to not play with items. It did happen. This is why a lot of Smash fans hate the competitive community because these people enjoy playing that way and had no interest in changing.
Counterpicks:
Brinstar
Delfino (moved from S/C)
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pirate Ship (Many argue that this should be banned as well, due to rudder camping)
Pokmon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Counter/Banned
Distant Planet (moved from C): don’t remember what this stage is
Green Greens: Exploding boxes falling from the sky, insanely low ceiling, block partitions make camping a dominant strategy
Luigi’s Mansion (moved from C): This stage is usually allowed as a counterpick, but it’s banned because the ceilings make MK’s dair camping unbeatable. An argument can be made that you simply need to destroy the house, but it regenerates within half a minute usually.
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi’s Island (Pipes) (moved from C)
Norfair (moved from C): The plethora of ledges and platforms makes planking and ledgecamping and daircamping to avoid the opponent much too simple.
Banned
75m:
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin: DDD’s chaingrab is an autokill, as it is a walk-off stage
Corneria (moved from C): the ships randomly hit you?
Flat Zone 2: DDD’s chaingrab, insanely small
Green Hill Zone (moved from C): DDD’s chaingrab
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple: Stage is simply too large and makes running away/camping too easy as long as your character is faster. Sonic/Fox automatically win on this stage.
Mario Bros.: random enemies which HURT
Mario Circuit (moved from C/B): The cars go everywhere except for corners, which makes camping easy. Also, DDD’s chaingrab.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II: The center wall makes camping the dominant strategy.
New Pork City: Too large, too easy to run away
Onett (moved from C/B): DDD’s wall chaingrab
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses: DDD’s wallchaingrab
Skyworld (moved from C/B): Circle camping is too easy, the platforms make you invulnerable from below, making it easy to run away.
Spear Pillar: Circle camping with a faster character is too easy
The Summit: looooooooooooooool
Wario Ware: You know this
I only did the stages I remembered.
16/41 stages are okay, including counterpicks but not including counter/banned. That’s around 40%.
Also, if somebody told me that Cammy wasn’t good in SF, I wouldn’t have listened. I’d still play her. There’s no need to get butthurt or to listen for that matter.
Read through these. Watch as one Smashboarder comes in, spouts the same thing you just did, argues for 10-15 posts using the same followup arguments, gets shut down with reality every time, shuts up, only for ANOTHER one to start the whole process over. You wonder WHY we act like douchebags to you? This is why. It seems like we have to literally beat it into each one of your heads one at a time, and frankly, most of us are sick of it.
The fact that you spouted out bullshit about the hammer being invincible and overpowering just goes to prove that you don’t know jack shit about items and arguing with you over it would only lead to MORE OF THE SAME. Hence, broken record.