Yeah, but one week is still pretty damn short. That’s not even enough time to judge the available information accurately, as incomplete as that information is.
Why not have day 1 or hour 1 tier lists at this point?
You can tiger knee his Luthor Rush attack to make it pretty close to safe (The lower to the ground, the safer, obviously), and his zoning isn’t traditional zoning, which is why if you try to zone against zoners, you lose. His mines are for combo extension (Place one behind an opponent for j.3/back 1 okizeme and it leads into 30%+ for no meter) and keeping rushdown characters out, his missles/laser are for okizeme as well (Though arguably missiles are good for zone wars, I don’t like them in this regard because a trade leaves you without a bar, and no positional/setup advantage) and can even be used for unblockable resets, and in the corner Luthor can unblockable reset you until he’s out of bar. (Missiles -> Laser -> Missiles -> Laser) A full bar will do around 75% of your health after all is said and done. The only zoning tool he has that actually aids against zoners is his orbs; throw them out and they force your opponent not to throw out a projectile until after the orb has shot, giving you time to get in with a TK Luthor rush. His damage off combos is just as good as the other higher damaging character (112 -> EX db 2 -> b 3 -> j.2 -> 223 is around 35% for 1 bar, and starts off an overhead), and his wakeup Luthor Rush will trade or beat pretty much everything except for a projectile. Because he doesn’t particularly care if he’s zoning or rushing you down, Luthor really doesn’t have bad matchups, since he’ll just be rushing down zoners and zoning rushdown characters. In fact, the worst matchup for Luthor is easily Cyborg, just because TK buster is (in Luthor’s opinion) safe, so you can’t trade Luthor’s slower projectiles with it. Also, never jump against a Luthor player, since he’ll just TK Rush you out of the air 9/10 times.
As Raven, imo you’re going to want to use her ranged throw more than her projectile, at all ranges except full screen. I’m not familiar enough with her move list to say which overhead string would be preferable, but f3 is always an option with optional super armor. (I’d go look it up for you, but I recently moved, and no longer have access to a console).
Yeah, I really have no idea why they didn’t give her an air dash, given she’s the only one with… wings. I understand Superman’s, given he’s one of the fastest flying superheroes, but Wonder Woman? Come on, I’m sure Hawk Girl flies faster than her; heck most versions of Wonder Woman depict her without the ability of flight, and her New 52 relaunch she only gained it after getting hit with a feather of Hermes, so why the air dash for her?
It’s times like this I wish my name was HATEISMYFUEL. Do you see the name of the thread? Did I ever make a claim that my list was solid, unchanging, and correct? Nope. Just threw together a tier list with my roommate, since we’d played more than 1,000 matches between us (off and online) and played multiple characters, and stuck it on SRK so I could get some good discussion going (Which is why I included my opinions on why some of the characters are where they are.)
tl;dr : The only people being unproductive here are you; your trolling is unsuccessful.
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend, and I assure you I didn’t mean to say that I thought you believed your tier list to be accurate. I just think there are other, more productive ways to discuss the characters and balance then a tier list.
In general I just find it really counter productive to speculate about character worth so early.
Yeah I still have more exploring to do with Raven so obviously this is just from my week 1(2) impressions of her and about 50+ matches online. The problem I find with her grabs are that they whiff a lot and have huge recovery on them. I don’t know why they whiff either. I’ll have someone jump and I grab them with it. They’ll jump again and suddenly it whiffs. I’d love to see some hitboxes on it to get a feeling on where each one goes. Its definitely not as good as Green Lantern’s range.
For Hawkgirl I assume the logic behind no air dash is that she does have a very fast command mace air dash attack and she can still stay in flight after doing it. So although you can’t use it for strategic movement, you can definitely use it as a GTFO of here card at times. In addition her d.H in the air (divekick) is incredibly fast, good, and if you jump over their head its incredibly ambiguous. If she had an air dash I can see this being broken as she would air dash and dive kick all day long and you’d never know where to block. Then of course if they try to roll back or forward you’d just follow with an air dash and repeat.
Chill, I wasn’t trolling, sorry to offend. I was just trying to say the list isn’t the word of god or anything, so people shouldn’t act surprised when they disagree with parts of it. Personally I like this sort of discussion, it usually gives me a better idea of what problems people perceive their character as having, which helps me with matchups.
Raven being high up doesn’t surprise me. She seems like one of the most difficult characters to play because her keepaway isn’t mindless projectile spamming, she has to actually make reads and reactions. I haven’t seen anyone use her to her fullest.
But yeah, for me personally, I think the A tier has like 15 characters in it. Aquaman, Green Lantern, Killer Frost, Black Adam, and Cyborg would be my top 5. I used to think Superman was the best character in the game, but now that everybody else’s combo damage has caught up, I feel like he’s just solid. Hawkgirl and Shazam are the only characters I think could be weak, but it might just be because nobody plays them.
I can tell you right now that Hawkgirl can eat up Raven for breakfast. Mainly because Raven’s grabs WILL NOT hit Hawkgirl mid air, her jump is too high. The only possible way is to use her demon stance and pillar her. Struggling against Hawkgirl which is ironically is my other main. Seriously Raven suffers hard to any kind of rushdown. Think of her as a weaker Green Lantern. Decent zoning, fast normals, mid screen grabs, but all weaker in comparison to Lantern.
Just want to say that from what I’ve seen, Hawkgirl actually does have some decent high/low mixups with b2, she has some good damage output in the corner, and she is really good at punishing wake-ups (Flight above a downed opponent and just going back and forth into a divekick is ambiguous as fuck, and you can keep doing it safely until they find a way out).
Yup. But she loses hard to guys like Slade and Superman. Faster and zone better so she’s very vulnerable. She needs a block in flight mode or something haha.
Oh no doubt. She honestly feels like a counterpick character. She can’t do it on her own, but she seems to have some really good matchups amongst some of the top tiers and generally her matchups look to be severely in her favor or against her.
I kind of see that as a plus considering the matchup heavy direction this game is taking. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people eventually have pocket Hawkgirls.
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend, and I assure you I didn’t mean to say that I thought you believed your tier list to be accurate. I just think there are other, more productive ways to discuss the characters and balance then a tier list.
In general I just find it really counter productive to speculate about character worth so early.
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tier threads are inevitable.
and how is this counterproductive? tier threads gives a good grasp about what works and what doesn’t in a game.
the only thing thats counterproductive is your comment.
Lobo and then everyone else.
Well, think of it this way: early tier list speculations lead to discussion/questions, which leads to new understanding and knowledge of the game. I still haven’t fought a Lex, so I found it interesting to hear people’s opinions on him.
Obviously a tier list this early is going to be wrong, though. Not hating on OP, but I doubt ANYONE could make an accurate tier list this early.
Yeah, I really agree with this. Hawkgirl has some really heavily polarized matchups, based on whether or not the character she’s facing can knock her out of the air when she’s flying at the top of the screen (It’s a little more than that, but that’s basically what it boils down to imo)
Also, this gives me the perfect chance to link to this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZOWQLwvrIo
(Not mine, of course)
A little more on the counterpicking in this game; there have been a hilariously large number of matches where people wait hovering on Batman for me to pick a character; I hover over Lex, they go to Deathstroke, I go to Cyborg, they go to Sinestro, I go back to Lex, they go back to Deathstroke, I go to Cyborg and press ‘A’, they don’t change again. Start match, zoning war begins, Cyborg wins, insert ragequit after first round. What’s wrong bro, I thought you wanted to zone war me? Because of this, I ended up just hovering over Cyborg to force people to choose a character other than Deathstroke so I could play Lex comfortably. (Dem premature mindgames)
Honestly, in all the matches I played, I never played against another Lex Luthor. In fact, I wouldn’t even be able to play him properly (TK luthor rush 1in off the ground) if I didn’t play on hitbox. That tool alone makes a lot of his matchups against zoning characters much easier. Also, it makes those up back forwards (846) one frame, you know. Hell, I can TK buster so low it hits crouching opponents more than 50% of the time, and that keeps you in pretty much infinite blockstun, so for the perfect execution player Cyborg is the best character in the game unarguably. But, good thing I’m the only person who could do that (as far as I know, and I don’t play any more. My old roommate still runs Cyborg afaik, but he’s a stick player and thus necessarily can never TK it as low.) Fighting game developers are going to start having to get hitbox players to test their games, or things like this are only going to get more common; for example a Hitbox player in mahvel can abuse the instant overheads that come with being able to dash and jump on the same frame.
Also, for beating Lex Luthor players (In case they come about, who knows) just block high. His damage off his lows is miserable, unless he spends 2 bars to bounce cancel. Though granted, he builds bar incredibly fast if you use Luthor Rush as a dash, instead of dash. (Since 1in off the ground it’s safe [As in, can only be punished by -maybe- a down 1, and only Flash and Cyborg get combos off that.], no reason not to) Also, here’s where people realize bounce cancels are 1000x better than random super.
I’ve just been using the “hide cursor” more often. That being said one game I miscounted and hit Shazam by accident because of it… That wasn’t fun XD
And yeah, bounce cancel lows are amazing. Moreso on some characters than others, but for the most part they are all amazing.
Coming up with tier lists this early is fairly futile because everyone has incredibly stupid shit and match-up knowledge is EXTREMELY important. Notice how everyone says “My character isn’t good” and then rants about how every other character is broken? It’s because no one knows anything about this game other than some of their own character’s combos and mix-up.
Like… Doomsday low tier? Even though his damage his low, his rushdown is insane and jD3 has a crazy hitbox. Some of his match-ups are hella free, but other characters have good answers to his tools so they’re hella tough. Same goes for everyone.
People already know about Cyborg infinite lockdown lol, it works on everybody but like 5 characters if done perfectly (I forget who, but it doesn’t really matter lol).
Also people need to learn what supers are actually for in this game. Yeah they suck balls when you do them at the end of a combo for 5% more damage or mash as a first round reversal, but when your opponent has already used his wager and can’t afford to just throw away 30something% damage, then having a long-range super tied to an input that just requires pressing 3 buttons or a bind that can punish a ton of shit on reaction, on whiff, or on block when they otherwise can’t do anything is more useful than people seem to realize, especially considering how fast you can build up meter in this game.
Agreed, but some characters do have more useful supers than others. For example, I don’t personally think Sinestro should ever use his super unless he’s blowing it all on that 70% corner combo for a flashy win. Someone like KF, Superman, Hawkgirl, etc though? Makes you scared to press a button, and that’s hella useful!
Back on the counterpick, this game has intrigued me in that way. Very rarely are counterpicks so blatent in fighting games so early, but this game seems very black and white at face value. I’m wondering why that is because the game is indeed deep and some characters have tricks up their sleeves. Definitely excited to see how the metagame develops.
Well, balancing based on counterpicks is one of the best ways to keep every character viable, so hopefully between that and the fact that it seems every character has something ridiculous going for them we’ll see a lot of different characters played as well as “pre-game mindgames”. I fully expect people to use the “hide cursor” option a lot in the future.
MK9 is a counterpick heavy game. It’s likely MK9 guys are carrying over this habit into Injustice.