I definitely agree Rufus. Pretty much everything in the wiki started out as a thread tho, so we’re on the right track. Thanks again for all your efforts.
Both YBH and NKI’s site show 7 startup frames, but you captured 6 frames. Can you explain the discrepancy as this attack’s frames were not changed at all?
HD Remix classic mode has 6 frame startup for the move too. There are definitely inaccuracies in YBH and T. Akiba’s data. I suppose it’s possible that it has an inital frame that looks just like Z. crouching…
Yeah, probably, I’m gonna document it as 7 frames since both sources have the same startup. Still sifting through the data, I’m loving it tho. = )
Rufus: When you captured, did you experience 4-5 frames of input lag before any action? Or more? Kawaks shows that moves come out 4 frames after they’re inputted in arcade ST at any speed and NKI found the DC lag to be 0-1 frame on top of the arcade version. So if you have a camera, this is the perfect time to determine whether there’s input lag.
I’m using a video capture device, not a camera. The setup is not suitable for input lag testing. I’m also not equipped to do any sort of XBox vs PS3 testing.
Ok, I’ve updated the 1st post. All the data looks good. AWESOME job Rufus, thanks a lot. :party: Are you gonna capture the rest soon?
Edit: These are just my personal concerns regarding certain attacks.
Zangief
KKK Lariat <1 [COLOR=Red]6 [/COLOR] 5 5 5 5 5 5 2>
Are you sure that there are only 2 recovery frames after the last hitting frames? YBH and Akiba both captured 6 recovery frames and as far as I’m aware, this wasn’t changed for Remix.
Strong/Fierce Banishing Fist ?<6 12 22>
As per Sirlin’s Balance Article on Zangief there are 4 less frames recovery for all Banishing Fists, not just the Jab. So, theoretically the Strong/Fierce should also have 18 frames and not 22. They’re all supposed to have the same recovery. How sure are you that this is right? If it is right, this is huge, as that means only the Jab Fist has the new recovery.
Short Running Grab <10 15 5 5 22> = 57
(10?16?5?5?22) = 58
Forward Running Grab <12 18 5 5 24> = 64
(12?16?5?5?24) = 62
Roundhouse Running Grab <14 17 5 5 26> = 67
(14?16?5?5?26) = 66
This attack was sped up, so I was expecting lesser total frames, not more. YBH total numbers are the same as Akiba. The Forward and RH ones you captured have more but the Short has less.
Fierce Hop <5 {6 10 5} 6> = 32
(7 {8?10?6} 12) = 43
I want to figure out which frames are airborne and which ones aren’t. I’m guessing that the {} frames that I put into your data are the airborne ones, but if you could figure that out, that would be great, thanks.
Everything for Dhalsim looks great! = D
Honda
Jab Torpedo <8 [COLOR=DarkOrange]3[/COLOR] 3 {20} 25> = 59
(8?[COLOR=DarkOrange]3?3?1 [/COLOR]{20} 1?25) = 61
Looks great. Just need to figure out which frames are airborne (I’m guessing).
Super <1 [19] 3 1 ? 3 1 1 1 ? 12 10 3> = 55
(1?[18]?5?1???8?1???12?8)* = 54 Akiba’s data, YBH needs translation
It looks good, but since YBH is incomprehensible, it’s really important to get the invincible and airborne frames for this Super. And it was made faster for Remix, so I was thinking there should be less total frames. You could try it from full screen on a blocking opponent.
(1?[18]?5?[COLOR=DarkOrange]1?[/COLOR]{?}?8?1?{?? 12}?8) = 54 *this is my combination of Akiba and YBH’s data in terms of invincible and airborne frames, hopefully it might help.
Fei
Short Flame Kick <6 {[COLOR=DarkOrange]2 22[/COLOR] 13} 9> = 52
(6?{[COLOR=DarkOrange]2 18[/COLOR]?13}?6) = 45
This is my assumption that Fei is still airborne for the same amount of frames as YBH says, and that all additional, new recovery is on the ground. It would be nice to be sure though.
The Flying Kicks and Super look perfect, and make total sense, given the changes. = )
I’m eventually planning to have someone like NKI or Sirlin eyeball all the data once it’s captured, but any thoughts or concerns are welcome.
All invulnerable frames are blue or purple.
I think the torpedo and super are “grounded” for the entire time although a bunch have sweep invulnerability. (If you look at the stills, you can see that the height of the reference dot never changes.) In practical terms, it’s rather unlikely to matter. ‘Faster’ is likely to refer to speed.
The speed-up for the RBG is, I think, travel speed, not time. I can double-check the green hand and lariats but I’m pretty confident about the recovery times.
Honda headbutts can be SPD’ed and their reference dot never leaves the ground in training mode, so I’m pretty sure it’s always technically “grounded”.
Also the Honda super wasn’t made faster at all, AFAIK the only changes were to the knockdown / juggle properties of the hits (and the stored input).
Then according to your data, the first hitting frame of Honda’s Super is not invincible. And according to my interpretation of YBH, the 1st hitting frame is invincible. This was not changed in Remix, so I definitely think this attack should be recaptured. As a reference point, this is the YBH scan of the 1st hitting frame of Honda’s Super:
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9109/sfhondasuper1f.jpg
As you can see, it’s completely invincible.
That would be great if you could double check the Banishing Fists and KKK Lariat again please. Also Fei’s Short Flame Kick as well also, as it needs to be verified if the new additional recovery is all on the ground or during his airborne descent too. Also, you captured 2 more hitting frames than the Classic version, which leads me to believe the whole attack has increased number of frames, and not just the grounded recovery.
The 2nd hit was made slightly faster.
My earlier post:
Note that the first 1 after the super flash is purple.
Sirlin claims the Banishing Fists should be the same. They’re definitely different - 1/15 of a second is enough that if you do one and then the other, you should be able to notice.
Kick lariat should be 5 1 - 6 total frames at the end. My records were incorrect.
The Short flame kick has the last 11 frames on the ground, the first 5 of those have sweep invulnerability.
Ok cool. That purple looks red to me, so it was just a slight misunderstanding. 
How about we use the same color scheme in the future?
White = non-hitting frames that are vulnerable
Blue = non-hitting frames that are invincible*
Red = hitting frames that are vulnerable
Orange = hitting frames that are invincible*
Yellow = hitting frames for spinning attacks (eg Tatsu, Lariats) that the character has their back turned
[] = Super flash and other (unknown) states
{} = airborne frames*
*based on YBH and NKI’s YBH translation pic
If you’re absolutely positive, then wow. Just wow. They were all supposed to have the same recovery, and at least the Jab Banishing Fist has the new recovery, but that’s huge (to me anyway).
So it’s the same as Classic: KKK Lariat <1 [COLOR=Red]6 [/COLOR] 5 5 5 5 5 5 6> = 43 Good stuff, I updated the 1st post, thanks.
Cool, I updated the 1st post. Short Flame Kick <6 {[COLOR=DarkOrange]2 22[/COLOR] 11} 11> = 52
Thanks again for all your hard work Rufus. Can’t wait for the next batch of data.:clapdos:
MGU - not sure how the hitting frames group…
Jab
4 7 6 5 4 4 14 11
Strong
5 7 6 5 4 4 14 11
Fierce
6 7 6 5 4 4 14 11
Dred Kicks. Sweep invulnerability ends between the first two hitting 2’s.
Forward
2 2 7 2 2 2 10 2 10 7 9 1 2
Roundhouse
4 7 2 2 2 10 2 10 9 9 1 2
There’s a couple of reference dot hops in there…
Nice! I updated the 1st post. Thanks again Rufus.
Dee Jay
Jab Machine Gun Upper <4 7 6 5 4 4 14 11> = 55
(4?13?5?4?18?11) = 55 No mashing
Strong Machine Gun Upper <5 7 6 5 4 4 14 11> = 56
(5?13?5?4?18?11) = 56 No mashing
Fierce Machine Gun Upper <6 7 6 5 4 4 14 11> = 57
(6?13?5?4?18?11) = 57 No mashing
I’m assuming you didn’t mash for this data. How sure are you that the 14 frames are not hitting frames? Your data is similar to Akiba’s except that the 14 frames are hitting frames.
No mashing. I’m positive that the 14 frames aren’t hitting frames.
Akiba’s data relatively consistently shows moves as hitting longer than they do if the character pose doesn’t change while the hitboxes do.
Do those 14 frames have red hitboxes or not?
The 14 frames do not have red hitboxes, but Dee Jay’s fist is still extended.
Cool, thanks bud. :pleased:
With mashing…
Jab
4 11 15 15 4 14 11
Strong
5 11 11 19 4 14 11
Fierce
6 11 11 19 4 14 11
I consistently get 4 hits, but I haven’t tested for variations in the frame shifting.
Nice, thanks Rufus. = )
It’s a little tricky, but you can verify it yourself.
Against Boxer Jab SPD -> Jab Green Hand -> Jab Green Hand can finish just before Boxer gets up.
If I’m right then with Strong or Fierce green hands, it won’t. (If Boxer hits a wall,then the timing changes, so you have to start in the middle of a big stage.)
