Very nice. Thanks Rufus. BTW I added your hitbox pics site to the list of “works in progress”. :tup:
For Ken’s Fierce Shoryuken, did you do a juggling hit while capturing it? That might explain why you captured 5 invincible, hitting frames instead of 4 for the Classic version.
Fierce Shoryuken <5 2 {23 31}*3> = 64 *Not sure exactly how many airborne frames
([COLOR=DarkOrange]4[/COLOR]?2?{24?31}?3) = 64
For the Forward Lightning Legs, YBH has the last hitting frame as a single frame (1), but you have it as 2 frames.
Forward Lightning Legs <6 2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2 10>?= 47
(7?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?2?1?8) = 44
You’re sure that’s right? This attack’s hitting frames were not changed, only its vulnerable hitbox.
Everything else looks great, Chun Li’s new Short SBK has clearly lost some startup invincibility. :shake::sad: But I’m surprised that the Forward and Roundhouse have the same invincibility as the Classic version. Nice.
No. Any hits at all will cause hit-freeze or block-freeze and alter the frame counts. Unless I indicate otherwise (like on Honda’s Super) the frame counts are based on the move whiffing entirely.
The last 3 frames are the only ones that are grounded, and are (I think) cancelable landing frames.
Pretty sure. 1 or 2 frames there is a difference without real distinction anyway.
IIRC those middle frames are sweep-invulnerable grounded frames. A little odd, really. The SBKs have huge hitboxes - possibly the largest ones I’ve seen in the game so far.
BTW: I’ve been doing some testing and have been seeing discrepancies on the order of 1 frame every 2-400 or so.
Cancelable landing frames? What do you mean? As far as I’m aware, they are ordinary recovery frames that Ken can be hit out of.
You mean the 2nd invincible part of the SBK (eg 17 4 2)? I wasn’t sure if YBH meant full invincibility, or partial invincibility. If they’re not completely invincible, then I’ll change those 2 frames to white.
Well I have read through many if not all these posts and thought I would chime in. First there is a lot of information out there regarding this game. A select few have done a very, very good job in putting all that information either here or provided links for those to get to that information. That select few has even gone to the point of providing frame data, numerical data, etc. I think that is great but unfortunately that is not for everyone. Personally besides some of the links which provide videos from youtube (which I have done on my time to find some) the other information is blah, blah, blah. I dont mean that in a disrespectful way but I’m sure it is Greek to many, many of us.
Some ideas I have thought of which could improve the online community would be:
Lets designate say 10 players be it from North America, Central America and 10 players from Europe/Japan and assign that individual to be a mentor for each character. I mention 10 only because everybody hasnt different styles but in the end they all revolve around the same tools trying to achieve victory. Now many of you might say that is what we have Shoryuken for but I say lets take it a step further than me posting a question and someone replying with an answer or go to this youtube video, etc. Better yet have the top 25 for each character and find out who would be willing to help others. We could match up for instance a top blanka vs a top Dhalsim. The person wanting to learn would watch the matchup and then would try to implement what they saw with the other 2 players explaining what they should do. I know you guys have a hard time trying to figure out tiers so I could only imagine you trying to figure out who is the best. Again not trying to stroke egos or bruise any. We just want people to be able to find someone who actually wants to help.
I joke about being Fatboys apprentice but watching him, playing against him has helped me tremendously. Granted everybody is not going to be hardcore as me but by having a top 25 you could gradually have the person meet with better players until they are on that level of a top 10 so that you are not wasting peoples time. What I mean by that would be say someone wants to learn how to play T.Hawk. Well I wouldnt put him against SweetJV right from the get go when looking for a Dhalsim player to play against. Until the learn the matchup you wouldnt be able to play a top 10 player.
Currently I’m at the point where I am going into each character thread and looking for the best to play against. If this were something accessible it would be huge. I know we all play more than just this game but it is a thought.
Excellent suggestion Poison. I remember the SFIV forums doing a similar idea where they took volunteers who were willing to help newcomers out. They would then get matched up as mentors and students. While I completely agree with you that playing or watching high level players helps advance one’s game (definitely helps me), I also know that most top level players like damdai or John Choi don’t have the time to mentor someone. If you meant players who are not on such a high level, then yeah, I think your idea is feasible. Then again, maybe damdai *wants *to mentor someone and is just waiting to be asked, who knows? But yeah, great suggestion, and I think it deserves a new thread.
You’re basically right. The frame data isn’t really that useful, I primarily posted frame data here as a direct response to Bitzfu’s original post. <shrugs>
You guys are right in the sense that frame data doesn’t help every, *single *ST player. But it does help people who want to know the exact differences for the Remixed attacks. I’m sure there are Fei players who are wondering just how long he is in recovery on his new Short Flame Kick or Flying Kicks. Or Chun Li players that want to know how much less invincibility she has on her new SBKs, etc, etc. It *definitely *helps me a lot, and I know I’m not the only one.
I’d be willing to teach anyone how to use T.Hawk at a very high level (or Dictator possibly, but my Hawk is superior), but anyone who I even attempt to tutor gives up. : (
I tried mentoring once, but I don’t have the patience for it. I was trying to be nice, but all I wanted to say was “You just need to practice more”. Plus, I just wanted to fight, not tutor.
It helps me in two ways. First, it changes the way I play when I learn something new from the frame data that I didn’t already know. Example: Zangief’s Jab Banishing Fist being the only BF with the new recovery. I always use Fierce whenever all versions of an attack are exactly the same, and so I didn’t notice the new recovery, even though I mistakenly thought it had new recovery. As a result, I am now only using Jab.
Also, I had a disagreement with evoanon and studtrooper about meaty BF, SPD being an effective tactic. Since I was only using the Fierce, I didn’t think it was good as a meaty, but it turns out they were right. The Jab BF meaty is awesome! And if you combine the hitstun/blockstun data, the opponent is in 20 frames of blockstun, while Zangief is in recovery for 19 frames (+1 for the last hitting frame) in an optimal setup. *Which means that Zangief can actually recover before the opponent comes out of blockstun (+1 frame advantage)! *And after seeing Haru Tejyo use it as a super meaty (really early) vs Fifthnsomebud’s Blanka, my report after trying it myself is that it is extremely effective. Sorry stud and evo. You guys were right.:china:
Second, when I see or hear about weird occurences in the game, I look at the frame data for help in explaining it. Example: I think it was Kuroppi that posted a while back about Hawk being able to throw Dictator out of his reversal Devil’s Reverse (if it wasn’t you Kuroppi, I apologise), even though he’s airborne. Personally, I have never been thrown out of DR, which is why I didn’t agree that it was possible. I checked the frame data, and it turns out that Dictator is grounded for the first 7 frames of the DR. That’s a lot of time, and it helps explain how it looks like Dictator is grabbed out of the air, when in fact he is in a throwable state, even though his feet are off the ground.
Then I checked Dictator’s Stomp’s airborne frames, and Dictator is airborne after only 3 frames when he does his Stomp. So now I use reversal Stomps instead of DR to escape tick attempts (if I don’t have Super). Tho wakeup DR is still a better option than Stomp, I’m talking about after blocking the tick and trying to escape the throw attempt, not on wakeup. Stomp is not a guaranteed escape, but 4 frames less than DR is better than nothing, and at least makes the grappler work to time his throw near-perfectly.
Yeah it was. You already knew everything, and there was nothing new I could teach you. So in my mind, all you needed was practice to get the timings down (esp reversal Shoryukens).:lovin:
They quit because they can’t do all the fancy shit I do immediately. Two people I tried tutoring just wouldn’t listen to me, one guy drifted away, and another guy switched to Gief.
James, unless you can show me you really want to learn Hawk really well, I’m not gonna bother with you. Sorry man.
Haha, yeah that was hilarious. I know, I totally suck at mentoring. :rolleyes: I guess having learned everything from watching other people or on my own, makes me not understand why anybody would want a mentor. Even when I watch a high level Ken player like damdai do reversal Fierce Shoryuken on reaction, which I can’t do, I understand how he’s doing it, but I know that all I’m missing is to get the timing down on the dot and without pianoing. No matter how much someone mentors me, stuff like that’ll only come with practice (and a stick).
But yeah, great suggestion, and I think it deserves a new thread.
