Wow, so many posts over the weekend! This thread hasn’t been so active for a long while. It’s good to see that it still has some life left in it. Anyhoo, thanks for the added descriptions, Saiki.
It’s funny, because I often thought of Dan’s Gadou-ken as a weak little slap. Don’t have enough time to stay and chat now, so I’ll come back tomorrow.
-Clay
PS Berias- Long time no see; how have you been?
Here’s a question for y’all. We know Guy and Charlie either died or at least disappeared after SFA3. In SF2, Bison has a body that’s taller and thinner than his Alpha version. Is there any chance that SF2 Bison is Bison’s soul in Guy or Charlie’s body? I know there is no canon evidence either way, but I want opinoins on whether it’s possible, and if so which one. Me, I think SF2 Bison could be Charlie.
Hey, it’s been a while. Last I checked this thread was dead. I’ve since celebrated a birthday (now 25… yikes I’m getting old) and just this past weekend my brother got married, something I never thought I’d see. Anyway, nice to see some new stuff pop up.
Gen/Chun-Li:
Yeesh. I thought for sure someone else had mentioned this by now. The Versus Book SFA2 strategy guide has the names of all the normals, specials and supers in the game, and you can clearly read “Gendenansatsushu” under Chun’s c.roundhouse (and they even point out that it translates into “Gen’s legendary assassin kick”), so this should have been fairly known since 1996. Am I the only one who bought and read this book cover to cover or something? 
Sagat in SF2:
I say he dropped out after he learned that Ryu wasn’t going to meet him. As for who beat Ryu, I think not even Capcom knows that one.
Gouki’s A2 ending:
I always thought it was a fucked up translation.
Guile/Charlie:
In comparing them to Ken & Ryu, I think Charlie is closer to Ryu than he is to Ken. Charlie seems more refined and focussed IMO. Guile seems to be more brute strength. The description of how their Sonic Booms hit also conveys this idea. Charlie’s techniques are more skill-based, Guile’s are more strength-based. As for who’s ultimately stronger than whom, it’s really tough to say. Even taking into account than it’s probable that Guile beat Bison, that doesn’t mean Guile was stronger than Bison at the time, or stronger than SFA3 Charlie. It’s quite possible that Guile had The Rage against Bison (BTW, who says Guile beat Balrog and Vega? I’ll bet money that it was Chun-Li who took out Vega) and was able to defeat him because of it.
Guile’s Sonic HUrricane:
Guile’s Sonic Hurricane definitely goes nowhere in SFA3 at any level. Note that the reason CvS2 Guile’s Sonic Hurricane has more range than the A3 version is because, for some reason, the hurricane itself is in front of Guile in CvS2 instead of surrounding him in A3. The CvS2 version is better than his A3 version, but not by much - it has more frontal range and damage and it stays out even if Guile is hit, but it doesn’t protect from behind, and it’s useless for anti-air/anti-cross up.
Ryu’s FBs:
I think the Deijin Hadouken is supposed to be stronger than Shinkuu Hadouken because it’s unblockable. As for combining the types, it may be possible in thoery but I doubt we’d ever see it in gameplay.
To magnet-0:
Dunno about the helmet thing, but “Fujinoyama” was the sumo that Honda was facing, not Honda himself.
More later. Got work to do.
More stuff:
That Weaponlord Board link that someone posted a while back with James Goddard was an interesting read. Not just to learn that Dee Jay was inspired from OG Billy Blanks, but to the fact that it mentions the original 4 New Stereotypes… er, Challengers consisted of “two headswapped Fei Longs”. Never heard that one before.
Link here for those who don’t feel like backtracking: http://s2.cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=9520&topic=4239220&page=1
Speaking of character inspirations, here’re a few more:
Q - Tekkaman robot
Yun - Duo (Gundam Wing)
Yang - Trowa (Gundam Wing)
Makoto - Akane (Ranma 1/2 - IMO anyway)
Vega/Bison - The bad guy from live action Doomed Megalopolis (the same look, psychokinetic powers and all; you can see a picture from the cover of the anime version here: http://www.rightstuf.com/cgi-bin/catalogmgr/J6O0WL1vu=-NcgyfVR/browse/item/58451/4/0/0)
There was a huge thread on this over on Orochinagi.com last year. There are many more that were mentioned (some I don’t think were legit, but were interesting nontheless) that I’m forgetting.
And to whoever disputed it, yes, Ortega is definitely based on Hulk Hogan. Ortega is just Hulk with more hair and who can actual wrestle. 
To LucasBishop:
It’s possible, but I think it’s extremely unlikely that SF2 Bison is using Guy or Charlie’s body. Don’t forget that this “new body for Bison” is really a retcon from the original, as well as the fact that Bison’s new body is weaker than his original (I’m sure Bison would still have the “flying” walking animation and whatnot if they designed SF2 after Alpha - note that CvS2 Bison is practically SFA3 Shin Bison minus the fireball and the flying). Such a story development would be totally unnecessary. Besides, Charlie’s body is impossible since it likely got totally destroyed (along with Bison’s original body) when the Psycho Drive blew up. Guy is possible, but that would mean that Guy really is dead, which I’m not sure Capcom wants to confirm/deny just yet.
EDIT:
On EX moves being canon: I don’t think so. HOwever, that doesn’t stop Capcom from drawing moves from the EX games when they please. They needed a kick throw for Bison in CvS series, so they just took his EX one. They wanted another super for Guile, so they stole Opening Gambit and renamed it to Total Wipeout. They wanted to give Sagat something sorta new, so they gave him the low Tiger Cannon from EX. That sorta thing.
And while CvS series technically isn’t cannon, I believe the characters in it (mainly CvS2) are representative of what the SF characters would be like at their current, most powerful form. There aren’t many moves that are missing from the characters - Ryu’s missing Deijin Hadouken (probably for gameplay purposes, though Evil Ryu has it, probably to further distinguish him from Ryu and lend him some boss status) and his lunge kick, and Ken’s missing some funky kicks, and CHun is missing some supers, but that’s about it. The cast is pretty complete.
Yeah, that’s what threw me off, the actually wrestling thing. But I’d think he’d have a bit more glamour in his ring rather than just a plain one. And his vs. symbol would have been a bit better than just a rock. He’s not completely based on Hogan, but his looks definitely are.
Ortega rushdown by the CPU is just too sick. And that’s on normal difficulty.
EDIT : Another SF Cameo in SMB…Balrog’s in the Las Vegas stage, upper right from the right turnbuckle (from the screen and not from the crowd).
I’ve got a screenshot, I’ll upload later.
The thing concerning the 4 challengers is true. Originally, the four new characters in Super SF2 were, Cammy, Feilong, Gerronimo(American Indian) and a head-swapped Feilong. But someone from Capcom USA had told Capcom Jp that people in the US do not like to be stereo-typed with figures like Gerronimo. So Capcom Jp changed Gerronimo a bit, gave him a new name(T Hawk) and made him Mexican.
interesting. i didn’t know about the “fei-long clone”. did they both have identical moves? or was it too early in development to tell?
Maybe they became Yun and Yang.
Man, we’ve already gone thru two loooong storyline threads, and I’m still learning some new stuff on SF.
I had no idea about the original ideas for the New Challengers. I wonder if the design for Gerronimo was the same as T. Hawk’s, would he still have been a grappler character? Very interesting, indeed.
I’m not sure what you’re argument is here. I’ve already said that they seem to be pretty equal. Also, I like the Ryu-Ken comparison. Just remember that between Ryu and Ken one does hold an edge over the other. If Nash were still alive then I would tend to favor him.
-Clay
Clay My argument is why Nash is ranked higher than Guile? Which would led many people to believe that Guile’s and Nash’s difference is big.
Comparison:
Nash = Ken
Guile = Ryu
Nash tends to get flashy. He almost always implement some kind of power discharge in his fist, same with Ken.
Guile while does no burning fist, but his hits is solid. Same as Ryu.
As with your statement, if Nash was still alive, you would favor Nash. But since he isn’t that means Guile has your favor.
Isn’t that E. Honda? Upper left
I would assume that Sagat is still training in preperation for a confrontation with Ryu. As it is, it sort of seems like he is waiting for Ryu to be ready for him. Check his most up to date endings (Z3 and whatever the final version of SF2 is). I don’t think that anything has changed. As for why he wasn’t in SF3 (storyline wise), I can only assume that they aren’t ready for the very, very, very, very, long awaited and much anticipated show down. No reason for him to bother showing up if nothing is going to happen (much like SF2).
Gouki’s Z2 ending:
Saiki: If you would be so kind, could you possibly give us the original text to Gouki’s Z2 ending. I would like to see how it differs from the American “translation”.
-Clay
PS Happy B-day to Ultima!
Good luck to your bro, too!
kane_:
While visually Nash may be more showy and athletic, leading one to correlate him with Ken, I still think that as a fighter (both technically and mentally) he has more in common with Ryu. He seems to be calm, cool headed, and very analytical which makes me believe that he has a more Ryu-esque mindset. Also, the fact that he has a more precise control over his energy (much like Ryu) leads me to believe that he may have the greater potential of the two, making him the “Ryu”. Nash fights for justice, while Guile was motivated by revenge. Which do you think has more staying power?
-Clay
Who I favor? I say that Nash had more potential, and was better while the both of them were alive. Guile could always surpass Nash because he is still alive, but as it stands now, it doesn’t look like he has any interest in doing so.
Lastly, Nash was ranked on tier above Guile because Saiki, who created the listings, also felt that Nash has more potential. It’s his personal opinion, and if you disagree with it, that’s okay too. However, as long as we’re going with the Ryu-Ken analogy, I’d like to state that Ryu is also ranked one tier ahead of Ken. I don’t think that you should be worried about the tier difference, they seem to be pretty tight.
Ever since SFA1 came out, I’m already aware that Nash was some sort of a mentor to Guile (because I was able to read an article about this). Being a Guile fan myself, it didn’t accept the idea initially. I looked for a more solid evidence about this. Well, staying in this forum made me believe that it’s true.
But Guile has more will to win at any costs. Nash’s motivation(justice) don’t do squat. (Have you forgotten adrenaline rushes?) Potential? Guile has alot of potential too… Because he won SF II. (Can also be applied to Ryu when he cheated Sagat)
We couldn’t say who has more potential because we haven’t fought them. You are basing a character at his current status, and remember Nash has more knowledge than Guile has(Potential is a different thing).
That’s why I wanted to say that the tier is opinion-based. I don’t complain about Ryu, Ken, Oro or Gouki, because we have evidences backing them up. But with Nash and Guile, we only know that Nash taught Guile… so by that fact we know that Guile has the potential to be stronger than Nash because of evident student-master science(Where almost all student beat their masters). Also Guile trained alot after SF Alpha 3 to prepare for SF II. That training must mean something because if he didn’t get any better then why the hell did Guile trained anyway.
And an argument over some topic helps strengthen your opinions and knowledge for future use.
Because during Alpha days it’s true. No arguement there.
Well, we also know that Capcom purposefully made Guile sucky in SFA3 just to hammer home the point that Charlie was more powerful. It must be quite a big power difference if they’re willing to let it affect gameplay balance :eek:
On a random note, justice can be a very powerful motivator to some people, you know. Lord knows that it turns a lot of message board posters at the RSNetwork into foaming rabid dogs that will tear out your throat in the name of justice…
And until Capcom flat out announces it, I’d go out and say that Guile didn’t win SF2 In all honesty, I wouldn’t be surprised if Capcom isn’t considering SF2 at all when it comes to power tiers. Any winner they announce for SF2 will completely screw it up in terms of logicalness, I think, which is why they’ve decided to just ignore it and not announce the winner. If Guile really won SF2, Capcom would have said so. That’s a pretty big fact there, after all. We just tag Guile as the most likely winner due to the endings assumption, but that’s still very shaky grounds and I’m not sure if Capcom will follow the same assumption (especially since, once again, it screws up the logical flow of power tiers pretty significantly to have a winner for SF2). Therefore, I wouldn’t really use “Guile won SF2” as a very hard set gauge of power. What we’re left with is Charlie by far outclassing Guile in SFA3, to the point where Capcom let it affect gameplay balance, so going by what little evidence we have, I think it’s at least somewhat safe (safer than saying that modern Guile is Charlie’s equal, IMHO) to have Charlie one tier higher.
I think that Guile’s method of improving his style between SFA3 and SSF2T all lay within Charlie’s win quotes. Check it out:
Charlie:
“Your unnecessary movements are openings that lead to your defeat!”
Guile took this to heart, even more so than Charlie, and refined Charlie’s style even more. Guile saw what we see as the “style” part of Charlie’s method as “unnecessary movements.” Therefore, making it even more direct, more powerful. After all who needs a stylish 12 hitter, when two punches can do the job?
Charlie:
“Identify tactical inadequacies, then renew your strategy!”
Charlie obviously did karate for a long time previous to the military, evening going so far as to be the US martial arts champion before Ken. You can tell by Guile’s build that he doesn’t do karate, probably isn’t even flexible enough for some of Charlie’s moves. But Guile has obvious boxing experience. His then, is a modified style, like Dan’s Saikyo style.
Charlie:
“If you lack essential skills, you may gain them by experience.”
“You have no hope if you did not learn anything from our fight!”
This explains why Guile left he’s family between the two games. Guile seems like a hard-nosed, tough-as-nails, son-of-a-bitch.(Which is why he’s my favorite SF character.) However, in learning the martial arts, these are not good qualities. You have to be flexible mentally. It’s probably why Guile was, as Bison said a “runt” during the Alpha series. He was too hardheaded to learn from Charlie and when he died, Guile realized how right he was. But Guile was still green. So he left his family to continue to train, gain experience and improve.
I don’t know if this is relevant, but I just thought it was cool…
Well, Nash killed himself in order to rid the world of Vega. I’d say that he’s the one who’s willing to win at any cost. By the way, the look on Vega’s face when Nash grabs him from behind: Priceless.
Anyway, the difference between Nash’s and Guile’s motivation (Justice vs. Revenge) is a major factor in determining who has greater potential. Nash’s goal is a more long term one free of personal agendas. It’s more focused and he would go to very extreme lengths to achieve it. His primary concern is to rid the world of evil and to make it a safe place for civilians. Meanwhile, Guile is on a personal vendetta. Sure, he wants to stop a madman and take down a criminal organization, but that’s kind of an added bonus thrown in on the side. If nothing else, look towards their endings to see what I mean.
Guile (SF2): The gist of it is after Vega is defeated (regardless of who beat him), Guile takes his own advice and goes home “to be a family man”. He’s avenged his friend and made the world a safer place, so now he’s going home.
Nash (SFZ3): Vega is defeated (although in an incredibly corny manner) and Shadaloo is destroyed. However, Nash now vows to destroy the “seeds of evil” that Vega helped spread throughout the world. For him Shadoloo was only the begining, he still states that he has much more work to do.
The point is that Nash has much more drive than Guile, he is the one who is willing to go to greater lengths. He will have to continue training in order to fulfill his goal in life, whereas Guile, has already achieved his mission, he can go back to leading a somewhat normal life. It’s kind of like the Ryu-Ken thing all over again. Ryu’s motivation is much more elusive than Ken’s. As a result, he has to push himself harder an farther than Ken does. That is one of the main reasons why Ryu has more potential, the same goes for Nash.
-Clay