Not having been to any tournaments prior isn’t a valid excuse for using turbo. Even if you’ve never played any fighting games, it’s just common sense. I’d not cut anyone any slack for that shit. You don’t bring a tank to a game of paintball just cause you haven’t played painball before.
That’s why I don’t think turbo should really be described as just making something easier but rather outright cheating. If two people walk into a tournament, one with Happ buttons and the other with Sanwa, the “advantage” to either one simply because of comfort, preference, or some quantifiable benefit is just too small an issue to bother with. If that’s the case then the most “fair” tournament will have either house sticks/pads provided or actual arcade cabs. Neither option is all that feasible though. But, really, it’s all moot anyway because I don’t think anybody is really going to be able to seriously complain that “He won because he’s using Sanwa in an HRAP 1 array.”
Bingo. I don’t get why the fact that it wasn’t specifically mentioned in the rules doesn’t mean that it’s all of a sudden fair game. I’m sure stomping on your opponent’s foot and blocking his view of the TV also weren’t mentioned but I can’t imagine that being permitted because nobody told him otherwise.
People can hold whatever tournaments they want and ban/allow whatever they choose. If they want to hold a tournament where they don’t specifically ban turbo and then feel like their hands are tied when somebody actually uses it then that’s on them. It just so happened they held a turbo allowed tourney. Which, of course, they’re allowed to do. But I don’t see the rationality of intending to ban turbo, forgetting to mention it, and then feeling like you can’t kick out the guy who uses it.
If that’s the case then I’m going to bring a friend with an air horn and instruct him to blow it whenever my opponent starts a combo since I’m sure most torneys don’t have a “no air horn blowing in a player’s ears” rule either. A simple “no cheating” rule covers turbo and mostly everything else that might be a problem.
If somebody is willing to go through the trouble of concocting a stick or pad with completely camoflaged turbo functionality then he just may get away with it. But if it’s any consolation, these people probably are spending most of their time cheating rather than actually getting better so they’ll probably do more losing than winning in the long run. And even if they do keep winning, eventually somebody watching a match or looking at the vids will notice and this person won’t be at the top much longer.
Yeah, most rules also don’t mention it’s not OK to bring a custom controller with programmable 360 and 720 buttons, or to open up the system menu to take a breather mid-match, or even to shove your opponent. But they’re still illegal and new players should really be asking beforehand if such questionable tactics are permitted.
Still, it’s definitely a good idea to make these points totally clear. And players watching matches should be vigilant to make sure there’s no such cheating going on. Personally, I’d ban any type of button binding too (so as to make everything how it was in the arcade) but I know a lot of folks disagree on that point.
Wow, its like I’m being trolled from different directions. New kid goes to a tournament and plays like he does at the house with turbo, and instead of just letting him know that it is an unspoken rule not to use the thing they give him the option at the tourney depending on his opponent to let him and he ends up winning. So now everybody goes all crazy like it is some big issue as opposed to just an unintended oversight created by the new pads and sticks. Thread could have used more sense and less populist rage.
Huge oversight on the part of the organizers since he didn’t explicitly put it there. Put it in the rules, call it a day. When somebody new shows up, let he/she know that he/she can’t play with turbo or he/she will be disqualified and/or jumped. Close the thread because and sticky it. Way more alarmist than it needed to be and nothing in here than can be discussed, aside from that 3k/3p button. But that nonsense is normally mapped by the game so whatever.
The difference of course being that there’s no “summon tank” button on a standard paintball gun, AFAIK.
The official TOURNAMENT EDITION SF4 stick has turbo buttons right there. It’s reasonable for a new player to think at that point that they’d be considered legit. This is why we need to be clear.
I have a bit of a vested interest in this thread.
While I’ve always known that using turbo or macros in games is cheating, (Playing Counter-Strike with hackers that empty their whole clip in one click or Call of Duty with people with their triggers modified will tell you that) I came into Street Fighter 4 fairly fresh on the competitive fighting game scene. I will admit that I only really got into games like Street Fighter in the past two years. Thus, when I was teaching myself how to use stick, I used the Throw and Focus Attack bindings on the far right buttons of the stick. (I do hit all three buttons for ultra. Way more natural for me.)
I still use these bindings today and I fail to understand why someone would have a problem with someone using them for one specific reason: it’s built into the game.
Personally, I feel like if the game doesn’t allow you to do something, it shouldn’t be allowed in game unless it poses a severe disadvantage to the other player. In Street Fighter 4, the game allows several characters to do infinites and, for the most part, these are legal in competitive play because the player is usually better off stopping the chain at some point due to the damage scaling system. You wouldn’t be mad at someone for swapping their lp and lk buttons would you? Or any of their other buttons? While this is sort of an, as the forums call them, 09er issue, this definitely needs to be addressed and, if we all want fighting games and e-sports to have a chance to become a viable form of competition, (TV coverage etc) there needs to be a unified set of rules across most/all tournaments.
That said, there needs to be a competitive rule across all tournaments banning the practices that create this disadvantage, namely turbo and button macros. The rule should state simply that anything that the game doesn’t allow you to do is banned because that will make the most sense to EVERYONE, veteran or rookie.
The point in all of this is that “unwritten rules” aren’t good enough anymore. It’s bad practice to assume that all of these new players will just know.
It isn’t like it used to be where the same people were attending tourneys, there are loads of new players who have never even visited a site like SRK.
They get their exposure to the game by playing online where turbo isn’t banned.
It’s just a good idea to make sure it’s always in the rules for every tournament so situations don’t arise where it’s a gray area.
As a side note, it’s possible to leave the LED lights inside the stick, but make it so they never turn on. I’ve actually had people ask me to do it for them during dual mods and on sticks I’ve sold.
There needs to be people keeping an eye on players where it’s possible. There will be people trying to get away with it at tournaments.
Unfortunately it’s hard to catch people who are hiding it in links and combos. But it should be easier for things like Chun/Honda/Blanka to see if the person is mashing or not.
I’m actually not blaming you. You won. Congrats. I just happen to think the tourney organizers were holding a borked tournament by allowing turbo. Shit, if somebody by me were holding a tournament where you could kick each other in the shins then I’d be all over that. It’d be great, stupid (if not painful) fun. But the winner would still just have won a borked tourney.
If it were me holding the tournament? I probably would have disqualified you if the tourney wasn’t intended to allow turbo. I don’t buy this “we didn’t mention it so we have to allow it” stuff. I think “no cheating” is more or less implied and I think turbo is cheating unless everybody agrees to permit it. But if the host didn’t mind then I don’t have any reason to complain. It’s his tournament.
IMO,
It’s ok if a new player did not know that turbos/macros are cheating/illegal in tourney play.
As long as the new player can adapt to change and has all intentions of playing by the “rules” or “common sense” for next time.
Remember, EVO 09’ had 1024 players for SF4. A lot of new players :lovin:
New players are welcomed in our community and this thread should be fair warning about a rule that is clearly overlooked.
@ tony the tiger. Understand I can sympathizes with you and probably majority of the community. But the problem is not just because its frown upon. Its the fact its frown upon with out reason of valid constitution. People are still taking into the account that other will just abide by them. This isn’t a healthy way of expressing it in my opinion.
People we have laws and regulation for reasons, most have reasonable merit for it constitution.
We the cultural have yet to do this and I feel we cant till other matters are address. Like whats consider cheating or game breaking and how it effects the whole community.
So far I feel button binding is okay, turbo is case subjective but more or less should be banned in most sf centric games. Macro is the only true culprit of fighting game integrity though must game have simple mode (ala macro) which now becomes an ambiguous controversy to handle.
Either way I personally feel were approaching this all wrong because the only game I see turbo even benign game breaking is in sf games and most main stream games which are flaw games to base any standard in my opinion.
How about this? We create a UNIVERSAL rule set for ALL TOURNAMENTS regarding controllers. And any major tournament can sign on at any time.
We have SRK, TZ, VFDC, 8WR, DL, and any other fighting game community have one representative sign on at the start. So any large tournament that is affiliated with those communities will have a STANDARD and EASY TO ACCESS comprehensive rule set regarding controllers and other rules during the tournament.
And let’s not just have it be about controllers. Have it be about everything regarding proper tournament etiquette and behavior. So here’s a short list of some examples of what would be on the rule set:
- no pausing during matches
- no use of turbo on your controller
- no wireless sticks or pads allowed even in the same building as the tournament
- no bumping, shoving, or touching your opponent
- coin flip for 1P or 2P side
- double blind character selecting enforced for first match
- failure to show up to your match results in a forfeit
Create a list of rules and make it the official rule set of EVO and any other tournament that wants to sign on.
Hell you could even make official standards for individual games:
- HDR will be played at turbo 3 on 16:9 aspect ratio
- no dead body infinites allowed in MvC2
- Akuma banned in HDR
Someone get on this as it really need to be done.
Since you’re an old school rep, Valle, do you remember ANY old tourney back in the day with so many entries? I mean, even at the height of SF II’s popularity, it would be hard to imagine such a high number of participants… :looney:
Contrary to my previous statement, I’m not really against 3P/3K macros. As said, I play in a pad, and pressing all 3 buttons gets quite cumbersome because you neccesarily have to involve the shoulder buttons (reminds me of the old SNES SF days), and pulling it out in a combo is quite a bitch, so 3P/3K buttons actually become needed. As somebody else pointed out, it becomes really important in games like MvC 1 (for the wavedashing and all that jazz), but for the most part I don’t see it actually becoming game-breaking or an unfair advantage.
On the other hand, if you’re a stick user, why would you need a 3P/3K button anyway? A stick is supposed to emulate the arcade experience, right? I don’t recall a special button with the 3P/3K combination assigned, so why bother?
Now, buttons assigned to perform certain moves/combos are just plain lame. This isn’t Easy Mode, fellas! :arazz:
Was going to add this.
It’s actually really easy to do this btw, since each LED uses it’s own signal line that doesn’t interfere with anything else.
If the person knew that turbo use was banned and actually decided to do that it’s hella shady though.
It was just an oversight by the organizer though, I’m sure now the rule will be included in all list.
pretty sure the biggest tournament of ALL time was the alpha 3 tounament. Just in japan, 10,000 people played for the national title. All though I do believe this was done on cabs if you can imagine that. The US title only brought in around 100 people or some shit. I read a post about this not to long ago alt.sf2
a stick is allowed to have 8 p\k buttons, like the MAS sticks. The problem with them is if you take an x360 pad, you can wire up every single button. Even though SF takes 6 buttons to play properly, you can use the other 2 for 3p\3k. In ST\HDR, this breaks the rules pretty bad iirc because of boxer. He can TAP while using normals he other wise wouldn’t be able to right? Even on pad, ROG being able to do that is kinda retarded. gah, its been so long since people have talked about cheating. :sad:
I don’t know. While the idea of a universal rule set is tempting, I think people should be free to hold tournaments with whatever rules they want. And tournaments with really stupid rules would just not get any attendance so everything would sort of work itself out without creating some kind of kabal of “tournament rule gods” who determine what constitutes a “good” rule.
Even if it starts out great, with rules most everybody can agree on, that kind of stuff can take a turn for the worse really quickly. First off, there will immediately be a chilling effect over any and all tournaments that don’t 100% abide by the standardized rules. That also means that new rules that might prove to be good won’t be able to spread throughout the community because the illuminati already have a stranglehold. Likewise, an established rule would be harder to get rid of should it prove to be stupid under given circumstances.
And, ultimately, it just creates unneeded friction in a community. Now you have “loyalists” and “rebels” fighting each other.
To me any form of turbo or macro/binding constitutes cheating.
I don’t believe the argument for binding that it is allowable since it is in the game. Console SF games also allow to change the timer or damage settings. These features are just things put in to make the home experience more enjoyable for a casual gamer. The shoulder bindings are there to make it easier for pad players to hit 3P or 3K.
However, a tournament is a different scenario. Nothing is supposed to be easy. If you mess up pushing 3p or 3k then that is an error and you’ll be punished for it. It’s the same as any other execution error. There shouldn’t be a SRK button, so there shouldn’t be a 3P button.
If you choose to play a pad then you should accept the limitation of the device and learn to push three buttons simultaneously. Otherwise switch to a stick. And for those people that use eight buttons sticks, well I have zero sympathy for you.
All of that said, if a tournament explicity said bindings or turbos were LEGAL, I’d be all over it. Gotta take every advantage possible. In ST Turbo is even more broken than in SFIV, and 3p and 3k bindings in SFIV are a significant way to increase execution.
Wasn’t me in the tourney playing the Chun. It is unfair to disqualify somebody for shit they didn’t know if it was not explicitly in the rules; All you have to say is turbo is not allowed in fighting game tournaments, tell the person they can’t use turbo and call it a day. If they don’t like it, they can very well just leave the tournament. Valle is simply trying to prevent this interaction from happening in an incredibly alarmist way. all that needs to be done is one more line of rules added and its all taken care of. Not really needing a thread for it all.
It’s so weird that this is even an issue…I feel old now.
EVO 09 SF4 had the most participants in US History for fighting games.
a lot of you guys just dont think anything about 3p\3k. Have you actually tried to hit 3p’s or 3k’s consistently? its not super hard but in the heat of battle, one finger might be out of align and now your x3 input is neglected. As a marvel player, being able to hit 2p or 2k @ willl with top tier is EXTREMELY important and even world champions like justin\yipes\sanford miss something as small as 2p’s or 2k’s all the time. You need it for trijumps and sentinels refly.
This is why everyone doesn’t like to play against fantaiq because of his OBD, one button dash. It takes all the execution away from the magneto infinite and trijumps in general. not to take anything away from fantaiq, he’s still really good on a stick.