I use 8 buttons on my stick because I can, and have the option. If I play the arcade version, I use 6 buttons :tup:
maybe it is shitty and unlikely to occur (though a lot of fighting games out now only use 4 buttons, SC, T6, TvC, , KOF12, blazblue etc… so its not an impossibility), but using the intentions listed above, should it occur the rest of us would have to suffer.
I am a old school player like Valle is. I agree over the years,people using macros and turbo on controllers/arcade sticks has gotten worse.I also work in my spare time on a pro gaming site where it’s strictly prohibited to use turbo controllers. I have noticed some the “new generation” of players tend to go the easy route in stead of practicing and getting the combos down right through hard work.
That is the reason I like offline tournaments so much better than online. I have bumped into so many people using turbo on arcade sticks/controllers and I can tell they have little knowledge on how to play the game correctly. I go by respect and have little respect for users of macros and who use turbo on controllers/arcade sticks epically in tournaments. I have the SF4 fightstick for the xbox and the Hori ps3 stick and have never turned on the turbo on them.
I agree with Valle that people that run tournaments need to address that the turbo no controllers and arcade sticks are not allowed if they don’t want them used in the tournament. I can tell easy if someone is using turbo on a fighting game or a first person shooters.
Well I banned Turbo at Final Round 13. If you are caught using a throw button, focus button, taunt button at FR13 you will be disqualified from the tournament no questions asked!
however you do allow PPP on the newer games like HDR and SF4. However you have it banned from eariler titles since you want to simulate the arcade experience at your tournament.
Banning macro buttons is idiotic.
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They’re in the game. The only way to definitively be rid of them is to go through a lengthy control scheme change.
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Why are they so bad, anyway? Is a one-button FRC in Guilty Gear all that abominable? Does it even change the game?
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Pads need them. I’ve played on pad for the majority of my time in fighting games, and some games straight-up need macro buttons. Going back to FRCs, have you ever tried to hit three buttons on the face of a Dual Shock controller? Not something you can just do. Only a few pads were really even capable of letting you do that sort of stuff, none of which are on any presently-used consoles.
Turbo abuse is a symptom of a greater problem: the execution barrier. 5-input mash moves and tight links are outdated mechanics that detract from the playability of fighting games. The farther developers move away from execution, the better. Taking the ‘hands’ out of fighting games will diminish the turbo advantage and put the focus on ‘brains’, which is where it should be.
To put it simply, there’s a very clear line between having access to something and knowing when to use it. A turbo-abusing E. Honda player who can combo into Hundred Hand Slap at will isn’t going to get very far until he learns when to use that combo. If he learns when to use it, why should he be cut off from it just because he doesn’t have the manual dexteirty to hit 5 button inputs in a one second window? He has the ‘brains’; he has the will to do it. What is the point of putting up a dexterity wall?
HD Remix was a step in the right direction. Hopefully SF5 will take more from that game than SF4 did and further expand on the idea.
If you want to take the execution out of the game and make it all “brains” you can go play chess.
We’re talking about a videogame here. The challenge of the competition lies in both the physical execution and the mental side. Iif you take the execution out of the equation , you kill the genre in the minds of the majority of the players.
There are plenty of games you can go play against another person without twitch reflexes and dexterity required. Fighting games should never be one of them.
btw, the majority of the rest of this thread has been so derailed to the point of it being total garbage. The OP didn’t even say anything about the 3K and 3P argument, and it’s been 80% of the posts in this thread.
The ‘brains’ aspect of a fighting games - footsies, zoning, spacing - is reflex-based, but it’s not an execution barrier. Turbo isn’t going to help you in that area of the game, but it’s far from chess. Nobody is talking about turning Street Fighter into a turn-based game.
Fair enough, but something like this makes it sound that way:
If you’re saying you would like to see one frame links disappear then I can see your side of the argument. But the tone of your post (as I read it) made it sound like you wanted to remove core elements of execution.
To me, zoning, footsies, spacing are not about dexterity or physical ability. Those are basic elements of the game. You need to keep certain limiting factors like tight windows for combos, cancels, etc. in order for it to be a solid fighting game engine.
Personally I don’t think mash moves, one frame links or any of these things should be removed. And I don’t know that I buy the argument that people aren’t physically able to learn them (barring some sort of disability).
WTF IS THIS?
if you want all brains, go fucking play chess. There’s a game with no physical execution and its all brain power.
why are you crying about execution. As long as you got 2 hands and you’re not retarded, you can do anything given enough PRACTICE. Thats right, I’m talkin about fucking practice. Something people forgot along the way. People never complain about practicing, they just complain shit is just too hard and they don’t feel like doing all that crap.
Execution is 100% hard work nothing more. If you’re not willing to put the work into obtaining it, you don’t deserve it.
sf4 is already easy enough and you still have people complaining about the difficulties of execution. GOOD LORD :bluu:
Fuck this shit, bring back the Activator!!!
I like what they did with mash moves in HD Remix. That single change added an immense amount of playability to the SF2 engine. It also negated the turbo advantage, which goes to the topic of this thread.
The least fun aspect of any fighting game to me is sitting in training mode trying to perfect a tight link. Easing the input requirements for links would put these tools in the hands of more players, but the best players would still use them more effectively than beginners.
Anything that is made significantly easier with turbo is a needless dexterity barrier in my opinion. Anything that reduces the turbo advantage would be welcome from both a playability and fairness perspective.
yup, we’re talking about practice.
quit being fucking lazy and dedicate some time if you want to get good. Just like every great player before has.
HD Remix made it easier to make mash specials come out, like Chuns legs and Honda’s hands.
It didn’t change things like mash grabs and escaping dizzys.
Turbo still gives an advantage to certain situations.
I see what you’re saying, and I know there are people that agree with you about making games more accessible. HD Remix made these changes because we’ve been playing the game for nearly 20 years, and it’s a way to get new players to pick it up. There doesn’t need to be a learning curve anymore. And those changes don’t really affect those who already learned the engine.
The problem is that turbo usually gives advantages that the game’s maker didn’t intend in the first place. When a developer puts in one frame links it’s because they feel that’s what the game should have, and how it should be balanced. When you put a variable like turbo (because not all turbos operate at the same speed, some can provide different advantages as shown earlier in this thread) it can essentially break the game the way the developer intended.
Exactly. I think practicing mind games against a human being is much more fun than playing DDR in training mode.
Yeah, but I was talking specifically about the advantage turbo users to had in terms of mash moves. Now that anyone can mash out a fierce HHS or whatever, that single advantage is mitigated. It was a very good start.
One-frame links are largely a byproduct of the frame data, though. I’m sure they gave the frame data a thorough once over to make sure nothing game-breaking was theoretically possible, but much of what we see in the game today was discovered by the players. Ono said something to this effect in a recent interview.
Add a generous input buffer to the link system and you’d largely do away with the turbo advantage. Certain other things, which you mentioned, would still be easier with turbo, but the specific problem that Valle brought up in the original post would be ironed out.
Execution is part of the game. It is expected that people with extraordinary dexterity or reflexes will have an edge. The game should not take part in it, unless the dexterity issues prevent one from having access to the basics of the game. One thing is turn tiger knee motions into QCF or DP motions, other entirely different thing is allowing mashable moves to be used instantly.
The player commits to the move when he starts mashing, the same way a Gief player commits to the SPD or super move as he starts the motion. Getting hit before the motion is complete is part of the game. Not completing a SRK motion as Claw jumps in is also part of the game. If Gief gets an instant SPD button or Ryu gets an instant SRK button, they will never ever not use those moves when they are called for. Tricking or confusing shotos before jumping is part of the game, instant SRK buttons would completely remove that strategy. Making mistakes when performing moves is also part of the game. On Youtube there are a number videos of Ryus getting crouching jabs when trying shoryukens or Giefs getting hit by projectiles when they finish a lariat and attempt another one. Recently on the HDR Chun thread someone posted a match when a Ryu advances, waits a split second a tries a hadouken, but gets a SRK instead and gets eliminated at a tournament. Mistakes happen, macros never make mistakes and that is why they are not inherent, even if sponsored sticks, emulators or home ports all support them.
Key words. Execution has always been a big part of fighting games, and even though it might be the least fun aspect to you, doesn’t mean other players don’t enjoy it, no matter how hard that may be for you to understand. If you want less execution intensive fighting games, make your own or find one easier than SF, but don’t expect everyone to tailor tournament rules to your preferences.
I understand everything but one thing here.
Why ban the taunt button, is there some kind of gdlk trick coming from kara taunts that isn’t widely known yet or something?
- There’s already a pretty large input buffer for SF4 specifically, it was made that way to draw in a larger crowd than the hardcore players. For example, cr.lk, cr.lk, ex legs is a very easy combo to hit, if you can’t do that without turbo, you need to practice more and put it into your muscle memory.
- Yes, 1 frame links are a byproduct of frame data, however that frame data is still created by the game developers…a turbo button on someone’s pad/stick wasn’t, and is never taken into account.
- Tight links aren’t game winning…in a lot of cases they help out quite a lot, but things that you apparently “enjoy doing more” will get you farther anyway. If sitting in training mode bores you, fine then just do what I do… spend 20 minutes understanding the link you’re trying to do, then just try doing them during casual games. Eventually you’ll start doing them more.
If someone can beat you because he’s able to execute things you can’t, tough shit…learn how to execute as well as he can. using the quick fix of turbo just makes you lazy.