!?!?!?!?!
A legit U1 combo?
SCOOOOOOORE!
I see what you’re saying but again… anyone that jumps at that angle where you actually would hit with CH is an idiot. I get how cHP is used and set up. But CH is so situiational that you have to be looking for it when it’s unlikely to happen. You MIGHT get 1 per round. And you MIGHT have ultra. And you still have to pull off the actual execution of the move.
Then compare that to actually reacting to oh say… a fireball, or a blocked sweep, or a jump. Things that are far more likely to be done, far easier to predict, react, and execute than a perfectly spaced jump in that the guy just happend to guess wrong on and hit a button.
If that’s the case You might as well hit the jump in with an unscaled naked ultra, instead of making things hard.
Risk: High chance of dropping the combo, or mistiming the ultra too late and you lose ultra meter, positioning, regular meter (cause you know EX FBA is going to come out instead if you’re off on charge time) and possibly moderate damage and stun as well.
Reward: You do roughly the same amount of damage on ultra, 60 points in the meter department, gain a reset of the situiation… and eat up about 1.5 more seconds on the clock than just a regular ultra.
yeah execution can be fine tuned with practice, but look at how much work is going into virtually zero reward over just doing a U1 on reaction?
and you’re right on using cHP. and that’s exactly when i would use it. But there’s no way that i’d take the risk and gamble THAT much on near perfect execution.
If CH’s hitbox was enlarged (raised higher) so that CH would be a bit more reliable as an AA then i’d reconsider it. But as is. cHP is about as good as it gets at that range.
first of all, let’s assume we know what we’re doing and that we can nail an ultra combo. everyone should, anyways.
second of all, you can’t anti-air someone with an ultra if you don’t have a charge, and you can’t anti-air someone with BHC unless you do it super early.
third of all, “the angle that people jump to get hit with CH” is just a jump in, period, there’s no angle, and again, i explained, if you KNOW they’re going to try and beat your air grab and you don’t have a charge, it’s entirely feasible to get this ultra combo out.
virtually zero reward? If you have ultra and anti-air someone with CH, you get 400+ damage and an untechable knockdown. that’s massive, not zero reward at all.
and what do you mean, “happens to guess wrong on?” That’s the whole point. that’s street fighter. you make a read, he guesses wrong, you punish with an ultra. that’s how this game works, that’s why this stuff is good. if you can’t anti-air someone with vega then yeah you might as well forget about it but if you can, this is entirely feasible.
Lol
i guess at the buffs. Nothing to be pissed or happy about.
Given how shitty Cosmic Heel is, wouldn’t you be able to do this on a grounded opponent? Sure it might need frame perfect timing but there should be enough time to land it.
You have to use Cosmic Heel from a distance where you can connect 2 Cosmic Heel’s. This should be possible right?
BTW, isn’t the charge time for BHC a few frames longer than EX FBA? so if you don’t get BHC, you should at least get EX FBA right?
A fix would be like fixing Cosmic Heel or cr.mp to hit opponents it should but doesn’t because of wonky hit boxes. Think of all the things they did to Vega in Super. All of them, minus the Ultra 2 where fixes. Ultra 2 was the only buff.
He means in AA situations. AA isn’t a mind game, or a read. He is implying that using Cosmic Heel in an AA situation requires a read or gamble, something that shouldn’t be happening to begin with. So that is his biggest issue with the “buff”, its not guaranteed, its risky gamble.
Or i could be talking out of my ass, your call.
AA is a mind game, and a read
if you can’t think of it that way then no wonder so many vegas have so much trouble anti-airing
it’s simple, either vega goes air to air with you or he doesn’t
someone’s gotta be able to beat that, and only in extremely rare cases can someone do it with the SAME move
so what do you do? mix up your options to ensure safety
you can air grab / air to air… or anti-air from the ground. and cosmic heel is a move that allows you to severely punish an attempt at going air to air with you
even if someone like ryu can punish every single jump in if he is available to do it, the only reason this is is because his poking tool (fireballs) has such a massive recovery
vega, on the other hand, has pokes that recover in less than half that time
so even if someone jumps over your shit, it’s very unlikely that you’re actually going to eat the jump in during your recovery
hence, his anti-air options are situational
so while other character sare worried about fireballing and getting punished by a jump in, you’re worried about maintaining space on the ground and punishing preemptive attempts at jumping over it
so once you do that with air grabs, then they’re going to have to find some way to beat it, which is for example, ryu’s j. mp
you predict he’s going to do it, you get a cosmic heel into ultra. simple. nothing hard to understand whatsoever
however, that’s the reason i pick u2. that way even if they jump over my poke most of the time i still have plenty of time to punish them with u2.
I swear for ppl who have been maining this character for 2+ years I don’t think most of you have actually learned how to play him
WEll with the other fighting games that I played, AA was never a mind game. when one jumped you AA simple as that. SF2 does things to you that you wont ever ever let go off. But that is me.
Which AA to use with Vega is situation that’s given, you job isn’t to mount an offense, its to stay outside and fluster. Well at least in SF4. That is obvious,
watching ST at SBO flusters me to no end.
nailing a combo in training mode and nailing it in an actual match are different. I can nail crap tons of combos in training mode all day. I have yet to ever even spot, and recognize in time, an opportunity to do CH to U2 in a match, let alone actually try it. I practice jHP, cLP x 4, cMPxx EX FBA (4 1-frame links) every day in training mode and I can hit it fairly consistently. But I’m not going to subject myself to that kind of risk in a match even if it was completely unscaled. Apparantly I’m not alone on this thinking because I have yet to even see CH to U2 performed in a match at all… by anyone. Not saying it’s never been done but it sure as hell doesnt happen very often if it does.
fine… replace angle with distance then… and if i KNOW someone is going to jump I’m probably going to have charge ready so that I can either ST or U1 them anyway. Otherwise I’m going to use cHP, or sHK, or Air throw, or njHK. Can I AA with Vega? Yeah, about as well any anyone else on here. But I’m not one for counting on my opponent to be an idiot and instant air normal when almost everyone has better/safer options to counter it… like not jumping. If i don’t know they are about to jump I have to make that determination while they are mid air on whether or not to block, jump, or AA. And if i’m not 85% certain that my AA is going to hit I don’t press a button. CH never being 85%+ likely to hit. But I’m very conservative like that. I don’t have the luxury of being able to rely on my execution. At least till I get a tournament standard monitor and have enough of an offline scene to warrant completely quitting online for good.
like i said. compared to doing an ultra on reaction to something unsafe that they do… You’re not really gaining anything more from doing it other than the satisfaction of pulling off something hard to do and a lil bit of super meter. Yes hitting an ultra nets you damage. Regarding the 2 ultra situations, however there’s not much difference or advantage of hitting it off a CH as opposed to just straight up doing the ultra. Yeah it lets you have time to build a charge and enables you to hit confirm. But maybe I’m the wierd one for thinking it’s pretty easy to land U1 and that it’s more likely for someone to make a mistake on headbutt, or a fireball, or a sweep or wall dive, or almost any special in the game, than on a pooly spaced instant air normal.
But for my game. This buff as is, exactly as stated, is useless. Just like how both SHC buffs… as is… exactly as stated, are useless. If there are other hidden changes that go along with it… then I’ll reconsider.
Edit: I take it back. I saw tatsu do CH to ultra once in a match just after super was released.
is there enough time? yes… barely.
will it hit? depends on hitbox. U2 hits because of it’s low hitbox. U1 will probably whiff on the way up.
and yes it’s 15 or 18 frames longer for charging iirc
well that’s cute of Capcom. I guess it’s nice to have it, but it won’t change anything. the real candy is coming from other characters. This game is shaping up to be a real watered down version of ST.
so its 42 frame charge?
that’s nice to know. I do wonder if it can be done on a grounded opponent though, is the hit box for BHC the right size? Or does it specifically need to be AA to give someone that extra space.
if you can’t do ultra 2 after ch, that’s your problem, not the characters. the opportunity is there. so to use this as a basis for why this tactic isn’t strong is frankly a weak argument. having to play online also doesn’t matter. i’m talking about a LEGITIMATE MATCH, not what you expect by logging onto xbl and pressing ranked.
replace angle with distance, my argument still applies. cosmic heel has no trouble whatosever hitting opponents who are far away, much less opponents who are airborne or standing.
why should you count on your opponent being an idiot? again, weak argument. that shouldn’t matter. i’m arguing about a tool that exists, not arguing about the probability of landing it against people who are otherwise totally free. notice how i said “smart opponent” in my first post? if they know what’s going on - hell, anyone who recognizes the air throw as a threat and considers themselvse a decent sf player would at SOME point adapt - then you can create a situation where you can hit with it.
what the hell do you mean, you don’t gain anything off of doing this? i already explained, you do MAJOR damage especially with u1, and you get an untechable knockdown. what more do you want? you even said earlier, if you do it bad, you get an EX FBA. like that’s a bad thing? no, it’s awesome, if you hit with cosmic heel, no matter what happens, it’s good. unequivocally.
and like i said, the difference between cosmic heeling as an anti air and the ultras is that you DONT HAVE A CHARGE. meaning you’re MOVING AROUND, not sitting on your ass being useless. Considering Vega walks faster than anyone else in the game, more reason to do so (did you know that? even though vega walks forward the fastest tied with 3 others, he is alone in the walking backwards category. walks backward THE fastest by a significant margin)
your whole argument is based on “your game”. i don’t care about “your game”. i care about “vega’s game”, which is why i’m making this argument. you’ve been offered an additional tool thanks to this buff, and you’re simply counting it out because you can’t do it or something? or you don’t expect to be able to do it against the people you commonly fight? doesn’t matter. it’s there, and if you don’t want to use it under whatever pretenses you’re trying to argue, then power to me, cause i’m going to use it all day. it’s a BUFF ffs. find a way to use it.
edit: no, u1 and u2 have the same charge time as every move of vega’s except for RCF.
lolol, Jozhear is mad.
Btw, are you sure u1 & u2 have the same charge times as ST? I honestly can’t remember for u1. Haven’t used that since I realized u2 supports corner pressure so well. =/
yeah man.
the reason probably think it’s different is beacuse you have to actually charge before you do the ultra 1 / 2 motion. considering you can rip out scarlet, fba, shc, instantly cause it’s just down, up, the timing for the others is slightly longer cause you have to do the motion. so you can’t actually press the button for ultra the same time you would regular kick charge moves, you have to input the motion which takes time.
Right, makes sense.
well yeah… my game is the only one that matters to me. I dunno why you getting mad. I pretty clearly explained the reasons why it’s useless. you say it’s not. we disagree. If i KNOW someone is going to do something I plan accordingly. If not I react accordingly best I can. I get what you’re saying… but i’m not going to count on someone doing something both stupid and risky when they have better options. Yes Ryu can try jMP-ing you out of the air. I’m pretty sure that most people who do that do it on reaction and not preemptively jumping like a random idiot. I know When I expect a Vega to jump I react… I don’t guess. I don’t see the mind game. It’s only a mind game if the other guy is a moron. If they are smart chances are they are not going to air to air you. They are going to AA you from the cround… like juri’s cMP, akuma’s cHP, etc… there’s no reason for them to jump at you at a range they clearly are at a disadvantage for, unless they are an idiot.
Jumping on Vega while he whiffs a poke is a valid way to get in on him (he pretty much has to block the jump-in at that point), problem is you have to guess at when he’s going to throw a high recovery poke. He’s talking about air-to-air situations where the opponent decides to preemptively jump a poke, realizes he guessed wrong and tries to beat your air-to-air attack by doing an attack that’s not aimed to hit you on the ground but out of the air, resulting in an early air attack. Happens if the opponent is that determined to jump over something and you’re good at feinting and baiting those jumps (good player could just be fed up with losing on the ground and try something else).
from my experience, opponents don’t jump over, but decide to use those 99 seconds when they get desperate. Time is clearly Vega’s worst match up if you think about it.
but yeah, that is right. You can jump over Vega’s pokes, its the most legitimate way to approach him imo, aside from using those 99 seconds. the only thing though, is I’ve yet to meet someone who is willing to commit to an early attack to beat out an air grab move. What I usually encounter is players who simply switch to a faster move in the air, so when they see me jump, they act accordingly. I have never ever heard or seen an intelligent player desperately throw out a pre emptive attack on a gamble where the risk isn’t worth the reward.
Vega has more than just air grab for air-to-air. You can just choose something else that stomps out w/e the opponent is trying to do in the air. In order to switch to a faster move on reaction, they would have to know exactly when you’re going to leave the ground, when you’re going to hit your button and what that button is going to be (which they shouldn’t know, so still a bad gamble).
Well obviously, you would be suprised at some people’s reactions. Either way this buff is purposely designed to compliment bad guesses from opponents who get flustered by Vega easily.
My question now is, is it really a buff, or a tool to demolish those who don’t know the match up? Just thinking about the tool itself makes me think its a tool designed to bully people.
^ I’ve played people with ridiculous reactions (to the point of it feeling like trying to air-to-air with them didn’t even make any sense). Found air normals to deal with it, so it’s still a pretty bad call to just constantly guess in the air (added to the fact that eventually, you can just say fuck it, charge and release early ST as soon as they leave the ground again and not even bother with air-to-air at all).
It’s a buff, just not for a situation you’ll see as often as others during a match. Still applicable, though.