well yeah, any tool is applicable. Im not questioning its viability, but its practicability. Its a nice thing to have in clutch moments though, and that is where it will shine. And it will have its uses
I can see this working in a footsie style where the focus is to tease them and control space with smart whiffs, not a defensive or offensive footsie, which is the norm. People will run into this if you can pull that style off.
why would only an idiot seek to beat an air grab? and when did i ever say that the air grabs were anticipatory and not on reaction? and, when did i ever say that the only way to beat air grabs is iwith an instant air normal? doesn’t have to be instant, they press it at the apex of their jump.
also, “no reason to jump on vega at a range where they are clearly at a disadvantage?” that makes 0 sense, for a couple of reasons - first of all, as the others said, jumping is a good idea against vega. second of all, what do you mean, no reason to jump when they’re at a disadvantageous range?
vega out walks them, so if they try to move out of that range, vega puts them back in,
vega outfootsies literally everyone except for juri and rose, (and don’t pull that CHUN HAS BETTER FOOTSIES bullshit, i’m talking strictly about matchups here), so no matter what, they’re at a disadvantage at the ideal c. mp range
so really ,what else are most charactesr going to do ? they’re gonna jump. and nobody here should give themselves so much credit as to say “yeah no problem” because you’re talking out your ass. vega always has to gamble on his anti-air options, especially if he has no charge.
so i’m proposing an option that beats an option that is one of our staples as an anti-air. and you’re telling me people are just going to “react” and beat an air grab when you react to their jump. Well, i say bullshit, for a couple of reasons, the first one being, nobody can beat an airgrab unless their name is rufus, ryu, juri, seth, or whoever else has those jumping juggle moves. second of all, and this is what is so simple, it’s just not realistic for them to beat an airgrab if they aren’t anticipating it, and if you’re a good vega and you’re mixing up your anti-airs, then this SHOULD be no problem for you.
Here’s the thing though - you’re telling me you disagree with me as though there are 2 sides to this thing. There’s your side - it’s useless on the basis of conjecture, that being, only “an idiot” would seek to beat an airgrab in the way i described, and then there’s my side, this tool BEATS this tactic, and nets you serious rewards as a result. this is a new tool, it’s a buff, there’s a way to use it. you’re telling me there isn’t, or that it isn’t worth it. first of all, it’s totally worth it. if you cant understand the value of an untechable knockdown for no meter (vega isn’t the kind to hold on to ultra, you get an opening for ultra, use it, it’s gonna be your last), not to mention the huge damage which you keep skimming over, then that’s your problem. i’m proposing a way to USE a buff we’ve been given and you’re saying no, it’s not gonna work, when in actuality, all you need to do is play a smart game and create a situation where it can work.
seriously, i would like for you to propose to me a way to beat a reaction air grab after they’ve already jumped. and guess what - there’s only one way, pressing the button early to hit vega before he gets to you. And how can you beat that…?
^^You realize smart whiffs and space control to feint and bait the opponent into bad guesses is a footsie technique (offensive or defensive according to opinion), right? >_>
Edit: Those juggle state air normals you mention can lose to other air normals Vega has. Just throwing that out there.
@Pedo: hence why i said “useless” =|
@Joz:
really? the hell is AA CH>U1 gonna change? if you can bait someone to do an early jump-in attack so you can land that shit then good for you, doesnt change how stupidly situational that shit is and how its not gonna change anything in a grand scheme of things, hence why its a useless buff. pretty sure that you wont see it done AT ALL in tourney footage (most likely not in casuals either), maybe once if you’re lucky.
and the EX SHC crossup gimmick died long ago in freakin’ Vanilla, even completely ass players block that shit now so yeah good luck landing that.
and i didnt say “unnecessary” i said worthless, big difference. Unnecessary implies that they werent needed but are useful, which does NOT apply to these “buffs” as they arent worth shit.
also LOL, read back in this same thread, i was one of the few not bitching when the alpha v2012 changes were out as most of them are actually BUFFS (U1/U2 buff, +1 frame on CH), hell even in the previous one we got the “lulz SHC buff” but who cares the move’s pretty much useless and the buff did not change that so whatever.
point is, there is a LOT of shit they could’ve fixed if they really wanted to give us fixes/buffs, but instead they gave us troll fixes, just like the Balrog “simplified U2 input” buff or the Makoto fully charged Hayate buffs, amazingly useful I’m sure…
i wasnt bitching here either,its just lame to see them adding weird as shit buffs that are never gonna be used, in the end its the same as doing nothing at all which was what i was trying to imply in my previous post, guess my wording was off shrug
^ fair enough.
i;ve been reading the argument for the last couple pages.
Unless he can CH into Ultra on the ground it’s not really gonna add anything to his game. Like I said before…we’ll wait and see and hope for the best.
What is nice is that if U1 had this ability it would make it the Ultra of choice considering I see many Vegas use U2 mostly as an escape tool. It would be nice to be able to rely on an Ultra for damage in a match. also, a change like this, letting him combo into Ultra, wouldn’t be game breaking. It would make him a threat w/o going into territory that Capcom is scared to go into, i.e. making him as powerful as he was in ST.
well obviously, I just categorize everything.
if they press a button early then it’s not reaction… it’s a guess.
if they press a button late you trade at best.
(wasnt trying to rhyme…)
point is… why would someone press a button mid air or early or instant or whatever when you’re not even airborne yourself. you react to the jump not the air throw.
^ because they are trying to beat an air throw that is on reaction. and of COURSE it’s a guess, that’s why air throw is the best anti-air option if you didn’t press anything before! since when is guessing SO BAD, or so frowned upon?
just to clarify - i’m saying that the VEGA player is the one using an air throw on reaction. The other guy is trying to beat it, and since I sincerely doubt any character can beat a reaction air grab - ON REACTION - then YES they are guessing to beat it. And hence you destroy them with the combo i’m talking about.
as I said in my previous post, suggest a way to me to beat a reaction air throw on reaction without guessing and pressing the button early. please do that for me.
I don’t get it…
why would you try to beat an air throw air to air anyway? You cant beat an air throw on reaction… you CAN beat a JUMP on reaction. Why should the opponent care what you throw out. You jumped… that’s all that matters. Not if you pressed a button or not. If you don’t jump then they do their normal jump in. If you jump they hit the button. It’s not like vega’s jump is unreactable. Hell if worse comes to worse just do like Valle and EX Tatsu as soon as vega leaves the ground.
they care what you throw out because air throws beat literally everything save juggle moves. Air throws happen too fast, there’s not enough time to react.
Let me put it like this.
so 25 frames for an apex-of-your-jump air grab. And that’s a slow air grab.
Let’s say you air grab earlier, at like … 13 frames into your jump. that’s pretty reasonable. subtract a total of 5, and you have 20 frames for them to react to the fact that you’re air grabbing.
alright, so 20 frames isn’t hard to react to. That’s like… ryu’s overhead. Can you block that every time? I hit daigo with Vega’s like, 22 frame overhead once =\
So maybe you can deal with that. But how about actually pressing a button to beat it?
Take a quick look through the frame data of most characters and you’ll quickly notice that you’re dealing with moves that come out in about 5 frames and slower. So you’re reacting in 15 frames. Can you block dudley’s overhead every time? Cause that’s 15 frames.
factor in the fact that i’m pretty sure vega’s air grab in the situation of a trade will always win (this would be interesting to find out actually) AND the fact that it simply has a way better hitbox than most moves and is more likely to win, and your chances of actually succesfully reaction air-to-airing Vega are very slim.
so you tell me. do you think people ACTUALLY beat air grabs on reaction? cause my answer is no, definitely not. it’s rare enough to see Vega get beat by an air-to-air, much less than one i could reasonably think was ON REACTION beating Vega’s own ON REACTION air to air. shit doesn’t happen, hence people throw out their moves early to beat air grabs. this happens… and against vega it’s pretty reasonable considering they know that vega is just as likely to opt to block the jump in no matter what they do. but then again, that’s when vega’s anti-airs reasonably shine, when you start trip guarding people.
AFAIK, a grab will beat a normal if they become active at the same frame. Assuming that’s what you meant.
^ yep, that’s what i meant. good to know.
“If your opponent attempts to air-to-air Vega, at the correct distances you can throw in a CH and then combo into U1.”
The fuck? We already have U2 to counter early jump-ins, not to mention the range and invul frames are MUCH better than risking a CH. If they counter-hit that CH before you fly up, you’re fucked. U1 is a bad Ultra and will stay that way until they give it comboability, invul frames, or a very fast start-up. If you were going to nail someone with U1, chances are you would have nailed him with U2 anyway. It’s not worth the risk since U2 at least makes people SOMEWHAT honest on wake-up.
These changes are absolute ass. U2 will still be the ultra of choice, and nobody uses EX-SHC against non-projective characters anyway. “Cross-up” EX-SHC is just gimmicky and doesn’t work against half-decent players. Who cares if EX-SHC will hit Chun when she’s crouching, you shouldn’t be using it period.
No matter which way you put it, a lot of fights will be an uphill battle for Vega. He received shit for buffs while everyone got something. The major offfenders got some slight nerfs, but that doesn’t stop them from rolling you over.
Yun going from 7-3 to 6-4 doesn’t excuse a plethora of 5-5 matches suddely going 4-6, to Vega’s disadvantage.
Vega was mid-tier at best in Super, low-mid in AE, and it looks like he’ll be the same or worse in v. 2012.
Always playing footsies with a downback charge - DATS HOW WE ROLL
And yes, while the situation Joz describes may be “rare”, at best, it’s still something good. We can now combo U1 in the same way as U2 - yeah, totally fucking sucks. I mean, seriously, it could’ve just as well said “well, since claw mainers don’t want buffs, we decided not to give him any at all! xoxo dev trolls”.
Though, if you’re so fucking unhappy, pray for some stronk stealth buffs. Dudley obviously had stealth changes to him (compare original 2012 changes to beta changes). Who knows, we might just get full invul on claw throw and then we can all be happy…
Also, does anyone know the actual startup and “travel” time of U1? Shouldn’t it be possible to link after a ch cr.mk, provided that the distance isn’t too great?
8 frames
One thing to remember… the usefulness of the CH to U1 change depends upon how often the dive back from the wall will hit. Remember how they said that the second part missing if you hit on the way up with U1 wouldn’t happen anymore? It still does, at least for me, in AE. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the time this actually gets hit, we end up missing most of the ultra anyways despite the difficulty.
That’s what they’re fixing. You can already do CH to U1, it’s just that you’ll only hit with the knee and whiff with the rest of the ultra.
There’s two different types of whiffs though. There’s the kind that whiffs because your collision boxes don’t hit, which is what I am talking about and then there’s the other kind where you don’t hit because your move doesn’t have enough juggle potential. Fixing the claws missing because those hits don’t have any juggle ability won’t help anything if the opponent still gets popped up too high for those claw hits to collide with the opponent at all.
if you do CH U1 you’ll see he goes right through the opponent. they wont be too high.