USF4 Ken Improvement Thread (+EVO Result)

[MainEvent]

…nvm

[SoVi3t]

I really think the frames on block for tatsu should remain the same.

^^^ This

seriously, we all realize that ken licks balls in SFIV. But if you pimp out tatsu, it will rule over all other characters.

I dont play Ken, first of all, so ignore what u want. But as it stands, if you throw it out, and it HITS, I have no problem with Akuma style followups.

But on block, I dont need to worry about whether i need to block or throw tech or pray to Jesus, just cuz Ken players are sad

[True_Tatsu]

in mother rush a ken ryu show :wtf:

SoVi3t:tup: ken should be playing for a CH in his mix up… and a blocked tatsu is not a mixup option. :nono:

I really think the frames on block for tatsu should remain the same.

since old [SF4] lk.tatsu is -9 on block… how about -6 on block for new [SSF4] lk.tatsu? still the least safe on block and the good reward risk on hit.
For spacing purposes, if only last two spins are blocked you could get -3; that keeps the ex.tatsu notably better than the rest.

i think at maximum tatsu on block should be -2, [snip]
… and it’s not like tatsu is un-counterable [snip]
edit: on second thought ken’s does do a lot of damage on hit though… so maybe have it safe only if spaced well to where it’s hitting 1 or 2 times (ie. ken can’t just throw random tatsu’s in close but can use them to enter a fireball zone.

can’t cr.punish a up close tatsu if the knee is a force stand… (i didn’t know it was though )

[OmniCloud]

I don’t really mind his focus. It seems to get the job done. If it was too fast, fireballers would be useless against Ken, thanks to kara focus. However, if I was to nit pick it, I would say the animation is horrible. The kick looks terrible… like a kick that someone first starting karate would do… Not someone who spent their entire early life learning it…

They can keep his Focus attack frames the exact same way they are now… But please give use a prettier kick…

Dude, Ken’s focus is garbage? What do you mean it gets the job done? 3/4 of the cast have better focuses? He needs to do a proper kick with decent range, and move him forward a bit. That wouldn’t kill fireballs against Ken.

Not everyone can even Kara that fast anyway…I dunno this post seems to get the job done on fixing Ken. Pick and choose what you will, but pretty much everything is here. Even the broken Target Combo. Ken does this silly cl.mp instead of the quick effective one that Ryu/Gouki has.

My personal favorites for how I would use my Ken is crazy kicks for combo setups and AA. A faster S.RH to be used effectively as a poke. I dunno about some, but besides lp SRK, I think S.RH was my most used normal. Now it’s probably c.mk or mp. All of Ken’s Srk being fixed. LP srk faster recovery, mp srk one-hit knockdown, Fierce better priority and damage on full connect. Faster walking speed is good, but I don’t mind in that much since I don’t play tourney fellas.

Originally Posted by Dr.Chaos View Post
Other people said make a new one and I’ve been playing Ken since 08 so…

Ken in SF4 is a character that has to put up with a lot of BS from certain characters. Even if that player is a not even 50% as good as you are, you still have to watch out because you can’t afford many mistakes playing this character Ken. Which isn’t to bad, but just to make our lives a little easier is a few suggestions/changes you should take note of.

What we would like to see in Ken for SSF4 are…

Top Priority
*There is no reason these should not be addressed

-Same walking speed as Ryu. I don’t think there is any reason to justify having him walk slow, and the step kick makes him move faster argument is pretty shallow.

-Fix the Fierce shoryu everyone about it is weird. It seems like the top of his head isn’t covered at all and loses to too many things if not done from a late crouched position, and even then it still loses. Its only value is that it can connect his full ultra if you AA a jump in then fadc ultra. Some characters get free jumps/dive kicks on Ken(Rufus/Akuma) in which they wouldn’t dare attempt on Ryu. Because his Fierce Shoryu just doesn’t work how its suppose to.

-A little bit more damage on “fake” ultra just a bit more. Still keep the full animation/full damage for AA Shoryu and counter hit fadc ultras

^^Not alot of stuff that seriously needs to be addressed. Kens pretty much fine, just his job is a bit tedious at times because of these things.

Medium Priority
*Ken should at the least have 2 of these changes.

-Ken and Ryu’s jab shoryu should be reversed, there is no reason Ryu’s recovers faster when its been the opposite since like Hyper Fighting.

-A Kick normal similar to his 3s S.Forward, or his Crazy kicks. This would help Ken AA better and catch people who hold up all the time,during jab strings. Would function similar to Bisons S.RH but with less priority and less damage of course.

-Ken being +2 after Ex Hurricane Kick combo instead of 1.

-A 5 frame sweep like Ryu, so Ken has 2 ways of reliable ways of getting a knockdown instead of 1(throw)

-1st hit of Shoryu knocks down regardless if the last hits don’t connect similar to his HDR incarnation. (Its pretty sad when you can’t use your best reversal move because the last hit might whiff leaving you to get punished severely)

Low Priority
*Ken doesn’t really need these but would enhance his character very well.

-C.fierce start up same as Ryus.

-Ex Shoryuken coming out in 3 frames instead of 5.(Ken needs every bit of damage he can get and being able to combo into his ex srk, without s.jabbing or 1 frame linking would be nice)

-Command overhead f+hk being +4 on hit(Able to link low forward after it hits, it’s currently -1 on hit)

-S.Rh start up of 12 decreased to 9.(This thing comes out slow as hell.)

-Target combo should work properly(I stopped using this in 08…)

With these things added, everything will just be peachy. http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos…_1647830_n.jpg

[System_1]

I think making multiple improvements to Ken would complicate things alot and change alot of dynamics of the way the game is played now, probably in ways thats difficult to predict.

Keep in mind that it’s not like Ken is the only character CAPCOM have to worry about. Sure all those suggested improvements will make Ken a viable character, but its going to push all other characters down the tier listing, then those characters will need adjustments too. Theres no way you can make 4-5 improvements to one character then be sure of how it will effect the balance of the game.

Ken already has HEAPS of advantages over Ryu - step kick, kara throw, more range on dragon punches, his non-meter using meaty combo (close s.hk into fierce hurricane) does way more damage than ryu’s non-meter meaty. EX dragon punch does heaps more damage/more hits than ryu’s, not to mention those funky overheads for occasional use.

IMO theres not much point squabbling over the little things like 1-2 frame start up disadvantages over ryu during certain moves - lets face it, the main problem with ken is his broken ultra thats so hard to land. I think that disadvantages ken so much as he can’t come back as easily in a fight as ryu can.

if they fixed only the ultra it’d be a SIMPLE improvement with a predictable outcome on the character dynamics/balance of the game.

[Worm_III]

Well Kens Ultra does 550 or so and Ryus does 390. So thats one reason why Ryu can hit that from every angle. All I want with Kens Ultra is 3-5 frames of startup so it can be used as a reliable anti air ultra. It is after all a shoryuken that starts off the ultra.

[Darkninja7000]

I think making multiple improvements to Ken would complicate things alot and change alot of dynamics of the way the game is played now, probably in ways thats difficult to predict.

Keep in mind that it’s not like Ken is the only character CAPCOM have to worry about. Sure all those suggested improvements will make Ken a viable character, but its going to push all other characters down the tier listing, then those characters will need adjustments too. Theres no way you can make 4-5 improvements to one character then be sure of how it will effect the balance of the game.

Ken already has HEAPS of advantages over Ryu - step kick, kara throw, more range on dragon punches, his non-meter using meaty combo (close s.hk into fierce hurricane) does way more damage than ryu’s non-meter meaty. EX dragon punch does heaps more damage/more hits than ryu’s, not to mention those funky overheads for occasional use.

IMO theres not much point squabbling over the little things like 1-2 frame start up disadvantages over ryu during certain moves - lets face it, the main problem with ken is his broken ultra thats so hard to land. I think that disadvantages ken so much as he can’t come back as easily in a fight as ryu can.

if they fixed only the ultra it’d be a SIMPLE improvement with a predictable outcome on the character dynamics/balance of the game.

i’m going to respectfully disagree with you on this. Ken’s shoryu is supposed to be superior to ryu’s. it has been that way since hyper fighting. his jab shoryu needs quicker recovery and his overall speed should be faster than ryu’s. Ken is the speed demon and ryu is the powerhouse. it has been that way since champion edition.

[Tigerboi]

Dr. Chaos laid it out.

[superyo1000]

Well Kens Ultra does 550 or so and Ryus does 390. So thats one reason why Ryu can hit that from every angle. All I want with Kens Ultra is 3-5 frames of startup so it can be used as a reliable anti air ultra. It is after all a shoryuken that starts off the ultra.

invalid arguement since sagat hits for 600+ AND has got a googooplex of ways to hit you with it

3-5 frames of start up to ultra? that would be broken…you would see this all the time

st lp, st lp, ultra

[Densuo]

My bro, Ken user states the following; " He needs more FIRE in his Shoryuken, make his step kick move forward a bit more. He already has overheads, he doesn’t need the Crazy Kicks"

FADC -> ultra should do full Ultra

Swap recovery of light DPs with Ryu and Ken. Ken’s the DP guy, his DP should be better

[Spycarnegy]

I think making multiple improvements to Ken would complicate things alot and change alot of dynamics of the way the game is played now, probably in ways thats difficult to predict.

Keep in mind that it’s not like Ken is the only character CAPCOM have to worry about. Sure all those suggested improvements will make Ken a viable character, but its going to push all other characters down the tier listing, then those characters will need adjustments too. Theres no way you can make 4-5 improvements to one character then be sure of how it will effect the balance of the game.

Ken already has HEAPS of advantages over Ryu - step kick, kara throw, more range on dragon punches, his non-meter using meaty combo (close s.hk into fierce hurricane) does way more damage than ryu’s non-meter meaty. EX dragon punch does heaps more damage/more hits than ryu’s, not to mention those funky overheads for occasional use.

IMO theres not much point squabbling over the little things like 1-2 frame start up disadvantages over ryu during certain moves - lets face it, the main problem with ken is his broken ultra thats so hard to land. I think that disadvantages ken so much as he can’t come back as easily in a fight as ryu can.

if they fixed only the ultra it’d be a SIMPLE improvement with a predictable outcome on the character dynamics/balance of the game.

You could argue Ryu is Kens worst match up, you cant be serious. S.hk into fierce hurricane is a punish nothing more. Low forward xx hadou can shut f.mk DOWN. And lets not forget Ryus multiple options for damage and ultra combo setups. Your making it sound like Ken vs Ryu is an even match up, its not. Ex Shoryuken does 240 damage and can’t be combo’d afterwards lol, Ryu can do ex tatsumaki for 200 damage and combo to ex fire ball, ultra, blah blah blah in the corner so don’t make it seem like that ONE ex move does a ton more damage than ryu’s ex moves. Not to mention, Ken even if he hits those overheads he can’t do anything afterwards, Ryu links shoru after f.mp(Overhead)iirc, ken is like -2 ON HIT after hitting b.mk…I mean come on now

[Mr.Basara]

I think making multiple improvements to Ken would complicate things alot and change alot of dynamics of the way the game is played now, probably in ways thats difficult to predict.

Keep in mind that it’s not like Ken is the only character CAPCOM have to worry about. Sure all those suggested improvements will make Ken a viable character, but its going to push all other characters down the tier listing, then those characters will need adjustments too. Theres no way you can make 4-5 improvements to one character then be sure of how it will effect the balance of the game.

Ken already has HEAPS of advantages over Ryu - step kick, kara throw, more range on dragon punches, his non-meter using meaty combo (close s.hk into fierce hurricane) does way more damage than ryu’s non-meter meaty. EX dragon punch does heaps more damage/more hits than ryu’s, not to mention those funky overheads for occasional use.

IMO theres not much point squabbling over the little things like 1-2 frame start up disadvantages over ryu during certain moves - lets face it, the main problem with ken is his broken ultra thats so hard to land. I think that disadvantages ken so much as he can’t come back as easily in a fight as ryu can.

if they fixed only the ultra it’d be a SIMPLE improvement with a predictable outcome on the character dynamics/balance of the game.

Uh… How would fixing Ken’s shoryukens to where they always knock down ruin anyone else’s match up against him?

How would giving his overhead plus frames on hit ruin anyone else’s match up against Ken? Both of his overheads are negative frames ON HIT!

Step Kick is the most overrated normal in the game. You can jab Ken out of it. It doesn’t do that much damage. And Ken doesn’t really get anything off of it.

Kara throw is nice, but with easy techs and jab spamming, it doesn’t really amount to much.

Ken’s shoryu may hit further horizontally, but it doesn’t always knock down at those ranges. You could tag someone’s limb with the first hit, but the rest whiffs so you get punished. AND his hitboxes on his shoryus are really awkward…

Ken may have more powerful meterless punishers, but how often do you see that shit? It’s about overall damage output, not punishers. Ryu beats Ken out in this case without a doubt. Everything he does leads into decent damage at the least.

Ken’s main problem isn’t his FADC ultra damage. If he was a better rushdown character, he wouldn’t even need a damage buff on it. They need to fix the little things that just don’t make since.

Funky overheads… Yeah, use it against a Gief spamming 360 so you can get SPDed after successfully hitting him…

:rolleyes:

[superyo1000]

Uh… How would fixing Ken’s shoryukens to where they always knock down ruin anyone else’s match up against him?

How would giving his overhead plus frames on hit ruin anyone else’s match up against Ken? Both of his overheads are negative frames ON HIT!

Step Kick is the most overrated normal in the game. You can jab Ken out of it. It doesn’t do that much damage. And Ken doesn’t really get anything off of it.

Kara throw is nice, but with easy techs and jab spamming, it doesn’t really amount to much.

Ken’s shoryu may hit further horizontally, but it doesn’t always knock down at those ranges. You could tag someone’s limb with the first hit, but the rest whiffs so you get punished. AND his hitboxes on his shoryus are really awkward…

Ken may have more powerful meterless punishers, but how often do you see that shit? It’s about overall damage output, not punishers. Ryu beats Ken out in this case without a doubt. Everything he does leads into decent damage at the least.

Ken’s main problem isn’t his FADC ultra damage. If he was a better rushdown character, he wouldn’t even need a damage buff on it. They need to fix the little things that just don’t make since.
**
Funky overheads… Yeah, use it against a Gief spamming 360 so you can get SPDed after successfully hitting him…
**
:rolleyes:

well said…

Ya playing gief seriously limits what kens can do :arazz:

[Tigerboi]

The fact that Ken’s EX DP does more damage than Ryu’s means nothing; Ken can’t combo ultra after a non CH DP for damage that’s worth anything.

[System_1]

ken’s horizontal movement on his dp mean’s nothing in this game. lp is mainly to stop poking which is slow, and trades often in air. so it can fly across the screen but if its going to trade for equal damage it doesn’t matter. mp is slow on reaction, your recovery on your fireball to slow and the startup on the mp srk is too slow so it sucks for its AA purpose. the player literally has to expect jump right then to use it. it wiffs on second hit often, with second hit having the horizontal movement. So it too can fly across the screen but if its slow and wiffing on second hit it wouldn’t matter either. fp need i discuss this it’s a combination of the two above. ex srk is the only constant reliable srk ken has. Hell a player is safer jumping in on ken than they are dan. like other posters have said previously ken has the slowest over head out of sagat, ryu, akuma and fei. he almost always gets tagged after using it because of the recovery so where’s the suprise element of using it if you’re going to be punish afterwards.

[Kousen]

I would like for Ken’s second ultra to be SAIII from 3S. I think that would help out a little bit.

[Tigerboi]

ken’s horizontal movement on his dp mean’s nothing in this game. lp is mainly to stop poking which is slow, and trades often in air. so it can fly across the screen but if its going to trade for equal damage it doesn’t matter. mp is slow on reaction, your recovery on your fireball to slow and the startup on the mp srk is too slow so it sucks for its AA purpose. the player literally has to expect jump right then to use it. it wiffs on second hit often, with second hit having the horizontal movement. So it too can fly across the screen but if its slow and wiffing on second hit it wouldn’t matter either. fp need i discuss this it’s a combination of the two above. ex srk is the only constant reliable srk ken has. Hell a player is safer jumping in on ken than they are dan. like other posters have said previously ken has the slowest over head out of sagat, ryu, akuma and fei. he almost always gets tagged after using it because of the recovery so where’s the suprise element of using it if you’re going to be punish afterwards.

You’re not doing it right. A late MP DP will beat any jump in because it’s invincibility. you’re just trying to do it too early.

I would like for Ken’s second ultra to be SAIII from 3S. I think that would help out a little bit.

SaIII wouldn’t be essentially good in sf4 by default. If it appears as an ultra, the lack of ultra cancel would automatically make it nothing like how it was in 3S. I think the way he is currently would make shippu a useless inclusion. He would need a new move to accommodate it.

[Mr.Basara]

You’re not doing it right. A late MP DP will beat any jump in because it’s invincibility. you’re just trying to do it too early.

I think the only bad thing with MP DP, besides the occasional second hit whiff scenario, is that it’s safe jumpable…

SaIII wouldn’t be essentially good in sf4 by default. If it appears as an ultra, the lack of ultra cancel would automatically make it nothing like how it was in 3S. I think the way he is currently would make shippu a useless inclusion. He would need a new move to accommodate it.

Thank you. SAIII is not gonna cure anything for Ken as an alternate ultra, unless it works like Abel’s…

[Spycarnegy]

Dude how awesome would that be to launch someone up and catch them on the way down with a knee in there fucking chest, hot shit. When and if they do make it that way he better be fucking cheesing.

[Mr.Basara]

Dude how awesome would that be to launch someone up and catch them on the way down with a knee in there fucking chest, hot shit. When and if they do make it that way he better be fucking cheesing.

It’s a must. We also need the additional 2 minute pause when that’s the finishing blow.