USF4 Ken Improvement Thread (+EVO Result)

[JoontheBaboon]

EVO2014 USF4
7th: Momochi (Ken/Juri)

EVO2013 SSF4AE2012
25th: YUBIKEN|KichijojiKEN (Ken)

EVO2012 SSF4AE2012
17th: DRS.MCZ|Chris (Ken)
17th: TH|MOV (Ken)

EVO2011 SSF4AE
25th: Banana Ken (Ken)

EVO2010 SSF4
9th: Dr. Chaos (Ken)
17th: Banana Ken (Ken)

EVO2009 SF4
( ? )

USF4 Changes:

• Forward Walkspeed increased to .046, Backward walkspeed increased to .0345
• Close Standing MK hitbox expanded downward, easier to connect on crouching opponents
• Crouching Medium kick horizontal hurtbox reduced
• Crouching HK start-up reduced by 1 frame, blockstun decreased by 2 frames, total frame count 31f (7/3/21)( -8)
• Thunder Kick (6+HK) advantage on block increased bv 4 frames (-4F → 0F)
• L, M and H Hadoken damage increased by 10 (60 → 70)
• EX Hadoken damage increased by 10 (5040 → 5050)
• M Shoryuken 1st hit now knocks down, opponent floats higher on the second hit
• H Shoryuken can be cancelled on the 2nd hit; damage increased by 10 (704030 → 705030); 2nd hit on block FADC Forward Dash is -7F on block
• L, M and H Shoryuken 1st hit on block → FADC → Forward Dash is now -5 on block (L, M and H Shoryuken blockstun reduced by 3 frames)
• L, M and H Air Tatsumaki Senpukyaku rising trajectory changed
• EX Air Tatsumaki Senpukyaku rising trajectory changed, the move will retain it’s properties from AE2012 when used on the way down
• EX Air Tatsumaki Senpukyaku is considerd an overhead attack (opponent must block high)
• Shinryuken (UC1) non-cinematic damage increased by 30 (270 → 300)
• Guren Senpukyaku (UC2) movement distance of first several frames slightly increased

Bradygames USF4 Bible Basics

SSF4 AE v2012:

SSF4 AE v2012 Beta Changes:

Ryu, Ken, Chun-li, E. Honda, Blanka, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Balrog, Vega, Sagat, M. Bison, C. Viper, Rufus, El Fuerte, Abel, Seth, Akuma, Gouken

Cammy, Fei Long, Sakura, Rose, Gen, Dan, T. Hawk, Dee Jay, Guy, Cody, Ibuki, Makoto, Dudley, Adon, Hakan, Juri, Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, Oni

(Renewal changes) Ryu, Ken, Blanka, Dhalsim, C. Viper, Akuma, Ibuki, Evil Ryu

SSF4 AE v2012 Alpha Changes:

Ryu, Chun-li, Ken, E. Honda, Blanka, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Balrog, Sagat, C. Viper, Vega, M. Bison

Gouken, T. Hawk, Dan, Gen, Sakura, Seth, Cammy, Abel, Rufus, El Fuerte, Akuma, Fei Long, Rose

Adon, Cody, Dee Jay, Dudley, Evil Ryu, Guy, Hakan, Ibuki, Juri, Makoto, Oni, Yang, Yun

SSF4 AE:

Frame Comparison: AE Ken (Super Ken):

• C. MP: 5 start-up / 5 active / 8 recovery / +1 on block / +4 on hit (5 / 5 / 9 / 0 / +3)
• C. MK: 4 start-up / 2 active / 16 recovery / -4 on block / -1 on hit (4 / 4 / 14 / -4 / -1)
• C. HK: 7 start-up / 3 active / 22 recovery / -7 on block / UKD on hit (8 / 3 / 21 / -6 / UKD)
• EX FB: 14 start-up / 43 recovery / 0 on block / +3 on hit (14 / 44 / -1 / +2)
• L. SRK: 3 start-up / 11 active / 18+8 recovery / -20 on block / KD on hit (3 / 3+8 / 18+6 / -14 / KD)

SSF4 AE Changes:

Updated SSF4 AE Changes from Arcadia Magazine

Ryu, Balrog, C. Viper, Cammy, Guy

Ken, Vega, Rufus, Fei Long, Juri

Chun-li, El Fuerte, Sakura, Cody

E. Honda, Gouken, Rose, Ibuki

Blanka, Abel, Gen, Makoto

Zangief, Sagat, Dan, Dudley

Guile, Seth, Dee Jay, Hakan

Dhalsim, M. Bison, Akuma, T. Hawk, Adon

SSF4 AE Hitbox:

Yun’s Dive Kick

Ryu, Cammy, C. Viper, Guy, Balrog

Ken, Vega, Rufus, Fei Long, Juri, Dhalsim

Chun-li, El Fuerte, Sakura, Cody, Guile, M. Bison

E. Honda, Gouken, Rose, Ibuki, Seth, Akuma

Blanka, Abel, Gen, Makoto, Deejay, T. Hawk

Zangief, Sagat, Dan, Dudley, Hakan, Adon

Evil Ryu

Oni Akuma

Yang Hitbox 1

Yang Hitbox 2

Yang Hitbox 3

Yun Hitbox 1

Yun Hitbox 2

Yun Hitbox 3

Yun Hitbox 4

Yun Hitbox 5

Evil Ryu Hitbox 1

Evil Ryu Hitbox 2

Evil Ryu Hitbox 3

Oni Hitbox 1

Oni Hitbox 2

Oni Hitbox 3

Character Life/Stun - AE (Super) [Vanilla]

Abel - 1050/1050 (same) [1100/1050]
Adon - 950/1000 (same) [N/A]
Akuma - 850/850 (same) [same]
Balrog - 1050/1000 (same) [1100/1000]
Blanka - 1000/950 (same) [1050/950]
Cammy - 950/950 (same) [same]
Chun-Li - 900/1050 (same) [same]
Cody - 1000/1050 (same) [same]
C. Viper - 900/950 (same) [same]
Dan - 1000/900 (same) [1000/1000]
Dee Jay - 1000/1000 (same) [N/A]
Dhalsim - 900/900 (same) [same]
Dudley - 1050/1050 (same) [N/A]
E. Honda - 1050/1100 (same) [1100/1100]
El Fuerte - 900/1000 (same) [same]
Evil Ryu - 850/850 (N/A) [N/A]
Fei Long - 1000/1050 (same) [same]
Gen - 900/900 (same) [same]
Gouken - 1000/1000 (same) [same]
Guile - 1000/900 (same) [same]
Guy - 1000/950 (same) [N/A]
Hakan - 1050/1100 (same) [N/A]
Ibuki - 900/950 (same) [N/A]
Juri - 950/950 (same) [N/A]
Ken - 1000/1000 (same) [same]
Makoto - 1000/1050 (950/1050) [N/A]
M. Bison - 1000/950 (same) [same]
Oni - 950/950 (N/A) [N/A]
Rose - 950/1000 (same) [same]
Rufus - 1050/950 (same) [1150/950]
Ryu - 1000/1000 (same) [same]
Sagat - 1050/1000 (same) [1100/1100]
Sakura - 950/1000 (same) [same]
Seth - 800/900 (750/750) [same]
T. Hawk - 1100/1100 (same) [N/A]
Vega - 1000/900 (same) [same]
Yang - 900/1000 (N/A) [N/A]
Yun - 900/1000 (N/A) [N/A]
Zangief - 1100/1100 (same) [1200/1200]

Street Fighter Fundamentals:

Advanced SF4: All About Dummies

SSF4 Hitbox Data

Footsies Handbook

P-Link Guide

Juggle Property Guide

Safe Jump-in Guide

• Jumping and landing takes 4 frames.
• If a jumping attack is done, canceling landing is not possible on the 1st~2nd frame (Trip Guard). However, canceling 3rd~4th frame with guard is possible (Note: movement, jumping, dashing, normal, or special can be done after the landing frames).
• If a jumping attack is not done (Empty Jump), canceling landing recovery with a normal, special, or guard is possible. However, canceling with a movement, jumping, or dashing is not possible (Note: jump > jump can be thrown before the 2nd jump).

1st Frame:

• You perform a meaty jump-in attack.
• Enemy performs an invincible move on this frame.

2nd Frame:

• You are now on the ground (your 1st landing frame). Since you performed a jumping attack you cannot cancel your landing into guard until the 3rd~4th frame.
• If your opponent’s reversal attack can hit on the 2nd frame, you will get hit.

3rd Frame:

• You are still on the ground (your 2nd landing frame). You still cannot block.
• If your opponent’s reversal attack can hit on the 3rd frame, you will get hit.

4th Frame:

• You are still on the ground (your 3rd landing frame). Now, you can cancel your landing recovery into guard.
• If your opponent’s reversal attack can hit on the 4th frame or later, you can guard.

5th Frame:

• You are still on the ground (your 4th landing frame). You can cancel your landing recovery into guard.
• If your opponent’s reversal attack can hit on the 5th frame or later, you can guard.

6th Frame:

• You fully recover from landing (your “5th” frame). You can do anything you want (Note: Safe Jump > Option Select starts on this frame).

(Please go to the 2nd post for Super Ken Improvement suggestions and the 3rd post for Vanilla Ken’s Notes)

[JoontheBaboon]

SSF4 Ken’s notes:

Frame Comparison: Super Ken (Vanilla Ken)

• C. HP: 5 start-up / 5 active / 22 recovery / -9 on block / -4 on hit (5 / 4 / 23 / -9 / -4)
• RH overhead: 21 start-up / 2 active / 20 recovery / -4 on block / -1 on hit (23 / 2 / 20 / -4 / -1)
• Level 2 Focus Attack: 17+13 start-up (18+12)
• L. SRK: 3 start-up / 11 active / 18+6 recovery / -14 on block (4 / 11 / 17+9 / -16)
• M. SRK: 4 start-up / 311 active / 25+14 recovery / -29 on block (4 / 311 / 25+9 / -24)
• EX SRK: 4 start-up / 2226 active / 45+9 recovery / -41 on block (5 / 2237 / 45+9 / -40)
• LK Tatsumaki: 6 start-up / 1(4)2(6)2 active / 11+6 recovery / -6 on block / -2 on hit (6 / 1(4)2(6)2 / 12+8/ -9/ -5)
• SRK > FADC is -2 (-1)

Character: Life/Stun (Vanilla), Dash Distance, and Jump Frames

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/05/stamina-stun-dash-and-jump-rankings-street-fighter-4/

Abel: 1050/1050 (1100/1050)
Adon: 950/1000
Akuma: 850/850 (same)
Balrog: 1050/1000 (1100/1000)
Blanka: 1000/950 (1050/950)
Cammy: 950/950 (same)
Chun-Li: 900/1050 (same)
Cody: 1000/1050
C. Viper: 900/950 (same)
Dan: 1000/900 (1000/1000)
Dee Jay: 1000/1000
Dhalsim: 900/900 (same)
Dudley: 1050/1050
E. Honda: 1050/1100 (1100/1100)
El Fuerte: 900/1000 (same)
Fei Long: 1000/1050 (same)
Gen: 900/900 (same)
Gouken: 1000/1000
Guile: 1000/900 (same)
Guy: 1000/950
Hakan: 1050/1100
Ibuki: 900/950
Juri: 950/950
Ken: 1000/1000 (same)
Makoto: 950/1050
M. Bison: 1000/950 (same)
Rose: 950/1000 (same)
Rufus: 1050/950 (1150/950)
Ryu: 1000/1000 (same)
Sagat: 1050/1000 (1100/1100)
Sakura: 950/1000 (same)
Seth: 750/750 (same)
T. Hawk: 1100/1100
Vega: 1000/900 (same)
Zangief: 1100/1100 (1200/1200)

Character: Focus Attack, Dash, and Walk Speed

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/may/02/walk-speed-comparison-super-street-fighter-4/

Character: Throw Range Comparison

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/nov/09/super-street-fighter-4-throw-range-comparison-chart/

Basic Knowledge

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV

[JoontheBaboon]

Vanilla Ken’s notes:

• http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Ken_(SFIV)
• C. LP > C. LP > C. LP > F. SRK: 182
• C. LP > C. HP > F. SRK: 242
• C. LP > C. HP > EX SRK: 322
• C. LP > C. HP > HK Tatsu: 258 with -1 reset
• C. LP > C. HP > EX Tatsu: 258 (298 if the knee hits) with +1 reset
• CS. HK > HK Tatsu: 350 with -1 reset
• Full Ultra: 546 damage (17 hits)
• CH F. SRK > FADC > Full Ultra
• AA F. SRK > FADC > Full Ultra (Empty jump does not give CH property)
• Hit/Block advantage after Focus Attack level 1 > Forward dash: -2
• Block advantage after Focus Attack level 2 > Forward dash: +4
• Block advantage after SRK > FADC: -1
• C. MK and MK overhead has the same range
• Focus Attack’s range is 1 pixel shorter than C. MK and MK overhead
• Step Kick and HK overhead has the same range
• CS. LP/FS. LP always whiffs crouching characters: Blanka, Cammy, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Vega
• CS. LP/FS. LP always block stuns crouching characters: Abel, Balrog, E. Honda, Fei Long, Gen, Gouken, Guile, Rufus, Sagat, Seth, Zangief
• CS. LP/FS. LP always hits crouching characters after C. LK/C.LP: Abel, El Fuerte, Gen, M. Bison, Sagat, Sakura, Seth, Vega, Zangief
• Wake-up Cross-up Glitch characters: E. Honda, Sagat, Vega
• New York Cross-up Glitch characters: Abel, E. Honda, Rufus, Sagat, Seth
• Option Select Sweep does not work against: Blanka, Chun-Li, Gen

Ryu’s C. MP (16 frames): 4 start-up, 4 active, 8 recovery, +2 on block, +5 on hit
Akuma’s C. MP (16 frames): 4 start-up, 3 active, 9 recovery, +2 on block, +5 on hit
Gouken’s C. MP (27 frames): 5 start-up, 2 active, 20 recovery, -2 on block, +1 on hit
Sagat’s C. MP (18 frames): 5 start-up, 3 active, 10 recovery, +1 on block, +4 on hit
Ken’s C. MP (19 frames): 5 start-up, 5 active, 9 recovery, 0 on block, +3 on hit

Ryu’s C. MK (22 frames): 5 start-up, 5 active, 12 recovery, -3 on block, 0 on hit
Akuma’s C. MK (21 frames): 5 start-up, 3 active, 13 recovery, -2 on block, +1 on hit
Gouken’s C. MK (29 frames): 4 start-up, 3 active, 22 recovery, -5 on block, -2 on hit
Sagat’s C. MK (25 frames): 7 start-up, 3 active, 15 recovery, -4 on block, -1 on hit
Ken’s C. MK (22 frames): 4 start-up, 4 active, 14 recovery, -4 on block, -1 on hit

Ryu’s Sweep (37 frames): 5 start-up, 4 active, 28 recovery, -14 on block
Akuma’s Sweep (33 frames): 6 start-up, 3 active, 24 recovery, -9 on block
Gouken’s Sweep (27 frames): 6 start-up, 3 active, 18 recovery, -3 on block
Sagat’s Sweep (32 frames): 8 start-up, 3 active, 21 recovery, -6 on block
Ken’s Sweep (32 frames): 8 start-up, 3 active, 21 recovery, -6 on block

Ryu’s Hadoken (58 frames): 13 start-up, 45 recovery, -6 on block, -2 on hit
Akuma’s Hadoken (58 frames): 14 start-up, 44 recovery, -4 on block, 0 on hit
Gouken’s Hadoken (58 frames): 17 start-up, 41 recovery, +2 on block, +6 on hit
Sagat’s High Tiger Shot (50 frames): 11 start-up, 39 recovery, -2 on block, +2 on hit
Sagat’s Low Tiger Shot (56 frames): 12 start-up, 44 recovery, -6 on block, -2 on hit
Ken’s Hadoken (61 frames): 14 start-up, 47 recovery, -7 on block, -3 on hit

Ryu’s EX Hadoken (52 frames): 12 start-up, 40 recovery, +1 on block
Akuma’s EX Hadoken (58 frames): 14 start-up, 44 recovery, -1 on block
Gouken’s EX Hadoken (72 frames): 17 start-up, 55 recovery, -12 on block, -8 on hit
Sagat’s EX High Tiger Shot (50 frames): 11 start-up, 39 recovery, +1 on block
Sagat’s EX Low Tiger Shot (56 frames): 12 start-up, 44 recovery, -3 on block
Ken’s EX Hadoken (58 frames): 14 start-up, 44 recovery, -1 on block, +2 on hit

Ryu’s L. SRK (41 frames): 3 start-up, 14 active, 14+10 recovery, -17 on block (1-2 frames invincible, 3-4 frames cannot be thrown, 3-16 frames lower body invincible)
Akuma’s L. SRK (52 frames): 3 start-up, 14 active, 17+18 recovery, -28 on block (1-2 frames invincible, 3-4 frames cannot be thrown, 3-16 frames lower body invincible)
Sagat’s L. SRK (57 frames): 5 start-up, 5 active, 31+16 recovery, -31 on block (1-5 frames invincible, 6-7 frames cannot be thrown)
Ken’s L. SRK (41 frames): 4 start-up, 11 active, 17+9 recovery, -16 on block (1-3 frames invincible, 3-6 frames cannot be thrown)

SSF4 Ken needs**:**

1. Faster walking speed: Ryu’s walking speed is faster than Ken’s walking speed. Ken’s walking speed should at least be the same speed as Ryu.

2. Faster sweep: Ken has 8 frame start-up sweep while Ryu has 5 frame start-up sweep, Gouken has 6 frame start-up sweep, and Akuma has 6 frame start-up sweep. Ken needs a faster sweep to play better footsies.

3. Faster dash: Ken needs faster forward dash to get in and faster back dash to bait opponents.

4. 3 frame start-up on all SRK’s: Ken should have the best SRK in the game. It should at least have the same start-up frame as Ryu and Akuma.

5. Stronger Ultra: Many characters can full Ultra without Focus-Cancel, but Ken can only do full Ultra after a counter hit using 2 EX bars. Ken’s “fake” Ultra should do more damage.

If Ken improves on any of #1 through #5, he would be a solid character.

This is what was posted in that huge email to Capcom regarding Ken:

EdMa suggests Ken needs:

• Make his forward dash 1 or 2 frames faster and/or cover more distance.
• Make his jab uppercut have 1 or 2 frame more invincibility and/or less recovery.
• Make his back+mk overhead recover around 2-3 frames faster or put the opponent in stun 2-3 frames more.
• Make his sweep come out 1 frame faster.
• Make his target combo hit all crouching. This is more an issue with various char hit boxes but all you’d have to do is make the fierce hit lower down and farther away.
  Bucktooth suggests:
• tatsu +1 on hit.
  -ex tatsu +2 on hit & 20% more stun, and to be juggle-able if used in the air.
  -cr.hp start up reduced by 1f.
  J.Chen suggests:
  -more range on st.hk, like in 3s.

Besides the fact that the multi hit shoryu allows you to “hit confirm” it to an extent, I really don’t see a point in Ken’s uppers being multiple hits… well… and tearing up focus attacks.

Honestly, I think the lp and mp shoryu should be 1 hit. Not that it would change his game that much, but I think HDR did it right, when it came to Ken’s shoryu…

What we would like to see in Ken for SSF4 are:

Top Priority
*There is no reason these should not be addressed

-Same walking speed as Ryu. I don’t think there is any reason to justify having him walk slow, and the step kick makes him move faster argument is pretty shallow.

-Fix the Fierce shoryu everyone about it is weird. It seems like the top of his head isn’t covered at all and loses to too many things if not done from a late crouched position, and even then it still loses. Its only value is that it can connect his full ultra if you AA a jump in then fadc ultra. Some characters get free jumps/dive kicks on Ken(Rufus/Akuma) in which they wouldn’t dare attempt on Ryu. Because his Fierce Shoryu just doesn’t work how its suppose to.

-A little bit more damage on “fake” ultra just a bit more. Still keep the full animation/full damage for AA Shoryu and counter hit fadc ultras

^^Not alot of stuff that seriously needs to be addressed. Kens pretty much fine, just his job is a bit tedious at times because of these things.

Medium Priority
*Ken should at the least have 2 of these changes.

-Ken and Ryu’s jab shoryu should be reversed, there is no reason Ryu’s recovers faster when its been the opposite since like Hyper Fighting.

-A Kick normal similar to his 3s S.Forward, or his Crazy kicks. This would help Ken AA better and catch people who hold up all the time,during jab strings. Would function similar to Bisons S.RH but with less priority and less damage of course.

-Ken being +2 after Ex Hurricane Kick combo instead of 1.

-A 5 frame sweep like Ryu, so Ken has 2 ways of reliable ways of getting a knockdown instead of 1(throw)

-1st hit of Shoryu knocks down regardless if the last hits don’t connect similar to his HDR incarnation. (Its pretty sad when you can’t use your best reversal move because the last hit might whiff leaving you to get punished severely)

Low Priority
*Ken doesn’t really need these but would enhance his character very well.

-C.fierce start up same as Ryus.

-Ex Shoryuken coming out in 3 frames instead of 5.(Ken needs every bit of damage he can get and being able to combo into his ex srk, without s.jabbing or 1 frame linking would be nice)

-Command overhead f+hk being +4 on hit(Able to link low forward after it hits, it’s currently -1 on hit)

-S.Rh start up of 12 decreased to 9.(This thing comes out slow as hell.)

-Target combo should work properly(I stopped using this in 08…)

With these things added, everything will just be peachy. :tup: http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs184.snc1/6128_235828680547_768555547_7898622_1647830_n.jpg

i hate to compare ken to ryu but thats the bread and butter, the yin and yang of street fighter.

One is supposed to have a better fireball and one has a better SRK. Right now the yin and yang are off balance because Ryu has the better of both worlds. Thats just not right. Ken’s shoryuken should take more damage than Ryu’s and they need to up the priority on Ken’s srk too. His srk as an anti air is pretty much garbage in this game because you get kicked in the face half the time with no trade off. All im asking for is a better srk because since the beginning of time, that has been “Ken’s move”. Ken has a terrible anti air game in SF4 and i want something done about that.

no way should they change the back throw… that thing is beastly for getting people to the corner.

and basara i think your looking at the knee bash all wrong, depending on how long ken spends in animation and how long their back flip reset is, it could be a even better setup for crossups etc than his current forward throw, especially since it would give them less time to see what we are doing, kinda like how ken can follow up his srk’s with nasty mixups to confuse quick-standers… only this one they would be forced to quick stand. (obviously it wouldn’t be a quick stand but they would still be in a hittable state and it could be highly confusing)

Nobody mentioned Ken’s FA not moving him forward, which I’d say falls into medium priority. Definitely not a character breaker, but Ken would be a more dangerous threat on the ground with a better FA. And since he’s supposed to be rush down, but his priority on normals/specials are a bit off, and there’s just the “silly” things (Target combo/ridiculously weak fake Ultra) that make him feel a bit tedious to play with at times. I’d say an improved FA should be pretty high up on the list, right under improved walking speed, and the better DP.

I completely agree with your post, and concur that Ken’s best tools and best way to play him is his spacing abilities. I think the videos of top Ken players are proof of that, they usually win by playing exceptional footsies, and then gaining some momentum with a knockdown or getting two combos in a row with a Tatsu mix-up.

This is the main reason why I think Ken’s movement speed should be faster, and his damage needs to be increased. All in all–his style is basic, but requires a lot of skill to be really good. I don’t think he has a proper number of tools for the job.

Movement speed, and much better pokes hopefully make the cut. I’d place this even in front of adding damage to his SRK and priority. If Ken’s s.RH could actually be used as a poke, both of his OH left you at a frame advantage on hit and neutral on block, and his broken Target Combo was fixed or replaced with Crazy Kicks, I would be perfectly fine keeping Ken’s weak SRK’s…

Except for his lp DP–that’s just not right in the name of SF:bgrin:

Not much needs to be changed in SSF4. Priority is still walk speed. Not nice things, not because he used to have them, but what I think to be actual design flaws in relation to other shotos and match-ups.

1. Walk Speed
2. LP SRK Faster recovery
3. One or two more ways to knockdown (faster sweep/EX hadoken)

That’s really it…Personal things I would like to see is his cl.MP to be identical to Akuma and Ryu so his Target Combo is actually a viable hit confirm. And his S.RH to come out quicker so I can use it as a proper poke, and not a “lucky” poke. A normal AA move would also be nice because c.HP gets stuff sometimes.

Chaos is a smart player and his list of changes is pretty reasonable. I think he’s right that some things that were given to Ryu instead of Ken are kinda weird, like Ken’s walk speed being slower. I totally agree that hurricane should have more plus frames on hit, that his dash should be a little better, and that the ultra should do its damage more reliably (ie make the major part of the damage the actual shoryu instead of the hits/kicks so that comboing into it is more effective). I’d also be down with toward+mk’s startup frames moving as far as they currently do over a shorter number of frames (like 8 instead of 11 or whatever) so that his karathrow has a bit more range and his step up is even better. I’d be down with a couple other normals starting up a bit faster too.

But I don’t think Ken should get Ryu-style footsies (ie faster sweep). I don’t think he should get overhead into combo, especially not into super/ultra. He doesn’t need ST-style funky kicks, Cvs2-style funky kicks, or more 3S normals. I don’t think he should get Ryu-style ex fireballs or Ryu/Akuma-style dragon punches. He’s his own guy and in making him better Capcom should focus on making him even more distinct from Ryu.

Just make his walking speed faster and his dash quicker. Also give him a little bit more frame advantage on ex tatsu. Possibly linking the entire ultra after a shoryu FC.

Just changing this will improve him and keep him from turning into another char.

i main ryu. but i would love to see ken improved.

1. walking and dash speed
2. better ultra juggle options
3. faster sweep

I’m for

• Faster walking speed
• Jab shoryuken swap with ryu
• More recovery on ex tatsu/tatsu
• More damage on the “fake” ultra

His focus attack is fine the way it is, i don’t care if it doesn’t move forward because you can already kara focus which i like better. You can go into absorb the hit instead of hoping they come into you.

I pretty much agree with Chaos. My main concerns are the Fierce Shoryu, walking speed, and a slightly bigger frame advantage on Tatsus. Crazy kicks ( preferably the foward kick from 3S), Jab Shoryu swap, and increased partial Ultra damage would be great as well. We’ll see what happens though :wonder:

yeah I think Ken should generally…

1. walk faster than Ryu.
2. have more forward range on each SRK (by input) than his shoto bro, with a subtle 2nd advantage (unique to input).
3. be buffed more in his (standing) mixups than his (knockdown) resets.
4. have less safe specials than Ryu but harder to punish when spaced properly on block.
5. have a useful FB, despite being less dominate to Ryu’s in speed, dmg, start up, or recovery.

If the knee (1st hit of SSF2 tatsu) was the only hit that juggled like Able’s cr.Hp, while the spin kicks only floated airborne foes, then one could space [tip of cr.mk] for the knee to whiff and keep a hi lvl mixup game. The EX tatsu wouldn’t have to kd either; . So if knee whiffs and not an airborne foe…
:lk: tatsu +1 frame adv on hit. (~like the lp.SRK would be and ex.tatsu was)
:mk: tatsu 0 frame adv on hit. (like is now)
:hk: tatsu -1 frame adv on hit. (like is now)
EX tatsu +2 frame adv on hit. (buffed by dmg increase and overhead finish)

note: spin kicks (1st spin anyway) could also cause crouching foes to stand on hit so last hits of mk/hk don’t whiff or knee could force crouching foes to stand on block? :rolleyes: which ever Guile’s cl.hp and cr.hp does should be fine.
fair enough, so long as one can psuedo juggle into Ultra like Sagat’s :r:+HK or like Ryu’s DP
I would be more than surprised if he were in, but wouldn’t complain :arazz:unless Dudley doesn’t get in:annoy: as I want to pit him against an improved Dan. I only mention him as Ono seemed to randomly transition to him in at least two interviews and rather ken not absorb his plausible move-set like in SvC.

While the return of the knee bash could be nice, I wouldn’t want it to be a command grab as that makes it a special move Ken has never had (and would rather see a psuedo-shoto like Dan with one if anything) and frankly doesn’t need.

seriously… it’s starting to sound like Ken players want to be Abel with his cmd grabs, rolls, overheads and SRK (or 3s Sean)

If you want more fear from a tatsu, give the tatsu options based on input strength and how it lands (spacing and frame adv) not a new move that gets the old moves nerfed to compensate. With a soft buff to ex.tatsu ken could mixup with a cr.lk/srk/throw on hit.

I would want his SSF4 hp.SRK more like in SSF2 and not knock down on 1st hit. iirc its (burning) stun lasted the full active frames (rise) of the attack with just 1 hit and ~1/2 the recovery frames (descent) with 2 hits. With SF4 data he has 24 frames of hit stun; 8 more than his 16 active. FC and your sitting on a lvl 2 FA +6 more hit stun frames and he could FADC into a full ground Ultra. This also narrows the window to punish the 1 hit hp.srk.

Personally i’d like to see:

• Fast walk movement
• Slightly improved focus attack
• Improvement in his kicks
• Slight increase in the half ultra when FADCing from a SRK
• Leave the full ultra out but keep the half ultra from a FADC. Instead change the way the opponent is lifted up and possibly a bit higher so we can land a MP SRK - Half ultra from a FP SRK more easily. I dunno about u guys but I find when doing the MP SRK-Ultra it is very tight timing from the FP SRK.

[Dime]

all ken needs is some fly ass sneakers! preferably gold.

/end trolling

-dime

[GpL]

Yes!

[SUPARNOVAX]

Just put a little more hit stun on his tatsu and your options open up even more, which is better than knockdown IMO.

[Colino]

ITT: Turning Ken into Ryu

[Bass_X0]

So his second Ultra should be his Shippu Jinrai Kyaku won’t it? I think I’d prefer his Kuzuryu Reppa, his Meteo from the Street Fighter EX series.

[Drexion]

HOW ABOUT WE JUST GIVE KEN A WIG AND CALL HIM RYU! because that’s what it sounds like.

Exactly.

OP if you want to play Ryu go ahead and play Ryu. Stop trying to turn your main into another character.

Of course we would all like to see a very balanced game, but taking the moves from another character and slapping them on your main is not the ideal way to do it.

[JoontheBaboon]

HOW ABOUT WE JUST GIVE KEN A WIG AND CALL HIM RYU! because that’s what it sounds like.

ITT: Turning Ken into Ryu

Exactly.

OP if you want to play Ryu go ahead and play Ryu. Stop trying to turn your main into another character.

Of course we would all like to see a very balanced game, but taking the moves from another character and slapping them on your main is not the ideal way to do it.

I’m guessing all 3 of you guys main Ryu? This is Ken Improvement Thread.

We all agreed that Ken should have slower Hadoken than Ryu, but why should Ken have slower walking speed, slower sweep, and slower SRK than Ryu? Please explain.

all ken needs is some fly ass sneakers! preferably gold.

/end trolling

-dime

Just put a little more hit stun on his tatsu and your options open up even more, which is better than knockdown IMO.

Wassup Dime. If the gold sneakers give more hit stun on Ken’s Tatsu, we’ll take it!

[System_1]

All I know is that Ken got jacked in SF4…

[System_1]

this is what ken needs to be back like he used to in sf2 hyper fighting:

1)walking speed, he has to feel lighter and quicker

2)faster short srk, for example, if ryu and ken both perform short srks simultaneously, ken should finish 3 in a row whereas ryu only 2 in the same given amount of time. (example, ken should finish a shork srk before he finishes yelling out “shor–yu–ken” and connects into another short srk just like in sf2 hyper fighting.)

3)ken DOES NOT need the EX fireball, it’s pretty useless, Give him a faster/more powerful EX tatsu with knockdown on the last hit if not blocked, His tatsus should also pass thru projectile moves if timed correctly, RYU doesn’t need it, ken does.

4)his focus attack should move forward alittle more
5)faster recovery time then RYU on everything except fireballs

6)ken should be a little weaker than Ryu in normal attacks and srks should be more powerful that ryu’s, especially Fierce Srks, AND in close range if the Fierce Srk hits, it should knock down the oppenont completely with 3 hits, not whiff after the 1st or 2nd hit. AND if at a not-so-close range, if the Fierce srk should catch an extended couching limb, it should knock the other player up into the air burning in flame, therefore ken’ll land safely, the tradeoff would be a weaker hit.

7)more invincibilty frames in srks expecially the short one, cause he’ll need that one to rush in
8)double overhead axe kicks
9)a better super, cause now his super is useless, it does not connect well at all. and if the other player is caught in the air, it hits only 2 times and its weak.
10) somehow a better connection from his normals/specials into ultra

that’s my 0.02 cent

[The_Juicebox_Abel]

Super SF4 Ken needs:
If Ken had improvement on #1 through #4 above (if not all 4), he would be competitive against Ryu even without his Hadoken.

What do you guys think?

Ken IS competitive against Ryu.

I think you need to get better at getting in.

Do you guys know WHY Ken is good? He’s good because once he’s in, every jab is a tick-throw/overhead mixup. Blocked a jab? back + MK, F + HK, F+ HK fake, kara-throw, and shoryu might happen right now! Still wanna block?

Another blocked jab. How about now?

Now? I can still kara-throw, shoryu, overhead you.

Tried to poke me back? Guess what, I counter-hit shoryu’d you and got full ultra. Block next time! That way I’ll kara-throw you.

[Moopie]

Make him IN-DE-STRUCTIBLE

[Mienaikage]

Make LK Tatsu have a reason to exist. -5 on hit is a joke.

And also fix the hit to whiff SRKs.

[DarthPaul1982]

I seriously think that Capcom are going to make Ken much better with this itteration, which I can’t wait for. Here’s my points…

1. Ultra should have more ways connect that do not seriously reduced the damage
2. Walk speed should AT LEAST be equal to Ryu’s cause he’s rush down
3. he needs more mix-up games, not sure what though
4. His SRKs should be improved (glitch removed) and made equal to Ryu’s

I dont think his fireball should be improved. If he is given more means to work as a rushdown character, then he should have a weak FB. Ryu should have the serious zoning shit, Ken should have a lot of mix-up options.

Oh, and my GF says that his fireball should be purple (yeah… dunno)… apparently it looks to much like Ryu’s…

[Kajiki]

so basically OP wants ken to be ryu? why not just play ryu then?

[D0p3]

so basically OP wants ken to be ryu? why not just play ryu then?

Has to stay loyal to Ken obviously

[System_1]

Do you guys know WHY Ken is good? He’s good because once he’s in, every jab is a tick-throw/overhead mixup. Blocked a jab? back + MK, F + HK, F+ HK fake, kara-throw, and shoryu might happen right now! Still wanna block?

Another blocked jab. How about now?

Now? I can still kara-throw, shoryu, overhead you.

Tried to poke me back? Guess what, I counter-hit shoryu’d you and got full ultra. Block next time! That way I’ll kara-throw you.

Would be nice if it worked that easily.

Blocked a jab. Back MK? Better hope it’s a hit, otherwise you’re at -5 and are punishable if you’re too close. Forward HK? Too much start up, not useful off of block-stun jab frames. The fake? Good for getting in, but opponent has to be conditioned to blocking the real one to actually try to block high, which most aren’t. Kara-throw? Actually a good idea, but it can get stuffed by characters with fast pokes (3-4 frame pokes can beat it a lot of the time). Shoryu? Unsafe unless you can really predict opponent, or if you have two bars.

Really, Ken has too few nice things to use. He doesn’t need a zoning fireball that much, but OP suggested some things that would be, uh, nice, and not out of character or overpowered.

Oh hey, you know what would be also nice? A target combo that doesn’t whiff if it isn’t in 100% deep?

[JoontheBaboon]

so basically OP wants ken to be ryu? why not just play ryu then?

Has to stay loyal to Ken obviously

We’re not asking Ken to have the same Hadoken as Ryu. My question is, why should Ryu have faster sweep, walking speed, and SRK than Ken?

I have yet to hear a reasonable answer to this.

I seriously think that Capcom are going to make Ken much better with this itteration, which I can’t wait for. Here’s my points…

1. Ultra should have more ways connect that do not seriously reduced the damage
2. Walk speed should AT LEAST be equal to Ryu’s cause he’s rush down
3. he needs more mix-up games, not sure what though
4. His SRKs should be improved (glitch removed) and made equal to Ryu’s

I dont think his fireball should be improved. If he is given more means to work as a rushdown character, then he should have a weak FB. Ryu should have the serious zoning shit, Ken should have a lot of mix-up options.

Oh, and my GF says that his fireball should be purple (yeah… dunno)… apparently it looks to much like Ryu’s…

I agree with your GF lol. But you’re right; if Ken’s Hadoken is not improved, he should be improved on rush-down skills like faster walking speed, dash, and etc.