USF4 Ken Improvement Thread (+EVO Result)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
21

Because a character does not consist solely of a sweep, walk speed and SRK - they consist of hundreds of features and not just three. You can’t just arbitrarily pick 3 moves from one character, then compare to the same 3 moves from another character, and call for buffs or nerfs. It doesn’t work like that.

Ideally how it should work is that for every weakness a character has, he has a strength elsewhere - and in the end when the sum total is considered its hopefully as balanced as possible when compared to the rest of the cast. The sum total and entirety of the character is considered, not just a couple of his moves. There are things Ken have which Ryu does not, (like his amazing F+MK poke and his amazing kara throw) - and there are things Ryu has which Ken does not.

Sure everyone would like Ken to be balanced - but just copying moves from Ryu isn’t the way to go.

22

Random and funny things:

Ryu has faster walking speed, as noted.

Ryu has more and better combo options with and without meter. Both Ken and Ryu’s crouching HP stand up the opponent, but Ryu has more moves that link into it. Ryu can combo EX moves into each other. Ryu has more combos into super and ultra. Ryu can combo his ultra from his super.

Ryu’s crouching strong is +2 on block, and +5 on hit. Ken’s crouching strong is +0 on block, and +3 on hit. Oh, did we mention that Ryu’s crouching strong has one frame faster startup AND one frame faster recovery? If Ken is supposed to be a rushdown character, why does Ryu have the move that gives him superior pressure and combos? Ryu’s crouching strong links into itself, his jabs and shorts, crouching fierce, crouching roundhouse, standing fierce, close standing strong, and crouching forward. Ken’s links into… crouching jab and crouching short (yes, that’s it).

What bothers me is that if Ken is supposed to be the flashy one, why is Ryu the one with all the combos? If Ken is supposed to be a rushdown character, why does Ryu have better normals for rushing people down AND better walking speed? Hell, among the basic normals (e.g. excluding the command ones) Ryu has like 2 normals that have slower startup than Ken’s: jumping straight up jab (by a good few frames) and jump forward roundhouse (by 2 frames).

The numbers for Ken just don’t fit his purpose. People who say that the suggestions here would turn Ken into Ryu aren’t actually wrong, because frankly Ryu is made for the job that Ken was supposed to do.

23

I agree, not going into much detail but Ken and Ryu were the exact character in SF 2 the world warrior. If you notice in each game from the Sf 2’s to the Sfa’s to the Sf3’s capcom has been making Ken more and more of his own character with moves. Not only special moves but with normals too. Capcom has made Ken as balanced as possible. The thing is and its with every character in the game some characters don’t have good match ups with others. For me in my personal opinion blanka is my main and I can take out any character I try my hardest on, but when it comes to Boxer I just keep getting punished so easy. Im not asking to nerf or improve blanka at all, I think hes perfect the way he is. My answer, pick another character to solve some of your problems. Read up on characters and work on match ups. Just because you’re loyal to one character doesn’t mean you can’t pick a second to work with. Thats what I work with and its just my opinion.

24

I want mvc2 air hurricane kicks and ST knee bashes.

25

  1. To be discarded.

  2. To be forgotten.

  3. To never be mentioned again.

26

Ken needs, a REAL backdash.

27

and a leap attack :slight_smile:

28

I can’t think of what his new Ultra should be. Naturally you’d say his 3rd Super Art in Street Fighter 3, but doesn’t the Shinryken in SFIV look a lot it anyways?

And Ken needs to be a little faster. And Ex Tatsu should knock down.

29

Ken i thought was fine and a good character . . . . you know what ruined Ken???

Fucking Ken-Scrubs, fucking flowchart Ken-scrubs. LoLz, and you know it!!! I dislike scrubby ken players. I have nothing against Ken himself. That’s all I gotta say.

30

kens ex tatsu didnt knock down in 3s… so why would it knock down now?? hes a combo character that needs multiple hits to do his dmg, while ryu does all of his in one hit. been like that for a long time now.

31

Make the flames on his ultra blue!

32

For some reason I get the feeling that Ken is going back up to top-tier like in 3S. Just a gut feeling, no reason for it.

Anyways, I never play shotos outside of casual play, but I always considered Ken to be more of shenanigans / combo character, while Ryu has the more solid game. I thought Ken was really lacking some strong shenanigans in SFIV, so here’s what I think he might need:

-I’d like to see his roll from Alpha back, just because I like canceling into it
-a cancelable sweep for block strings and sweep xx roll and such
-his crazy kicks back
-bigger frame advantage on hurricane kicks, so he can mixup or pressure off of them
-some kind of post-throw mixup like his ST knee-bash. I know that’d be harder to implement cuz reversals are easy in IV, but post-throw strings were just fun.

33

I really don’t know what to say about this anymore. The more I see vidz of Chaos, Max, and Dragonboy, and the more I improve myself, Ken’s flaws just don’t really stand out too much. I know he has bad match ups against some of the better characters… I know you can’t afford to mess up too much with him… But I think he’s got pretty much everything he needs to win. Sure he doesn’t win many tourneys and such, but damn Bison doesn’t either, and he’s rated pretty high on the tier list.

If Ken had a few frame data tweaks, he’d be even more consistent.

First, if EX Tatsu (or any Tatsu) knocked down, I would drop Ken immediately. If you want knockdown Tatsu, play Ryu.

If Ken’s Hadoken was faster, but nothing else in his game was changed, I’d drop him immediately. The faster Hadoken doesn’t help his game at all.

Ken just needs a few small tweaks.

Shoryus knock down on first hit (there is no reason for you to be left so open when hitting your opponent, because your attack didn’t work like it was suppose to.)

+1 additional frame on MK, HK, and EX Tatsu. That would effectively make MK tatsu a decent mix up tool. HK Tatsu, Ken’s main damage dealer in combos, wouldn’t be completely gimped against Gief (since it’s currently a free Ultra or Super now). EX Tatsu would actually be scary to get hit by. If Ken was at +2 after a Tatsu, you either have to block or go for the reversal. There wouldn’t be any of this “I’ll throw and if he’s one frame off on his c.lk, I’ll beat it out. If he tries to throw, I’ll tech it” crap.

I know there are other things that COULD be worked on like his target combo or the shit frames on his overheads, but Ken actually gets along just fine without those things.

I dunno… The better I get (and the better the top Ken players are getting), the more the rarely used tools (overheads, target combo, lk tatsu for hitting, c.mp for combos) seem pretty obsolete.

And stop suggesting the damn Roll. It’s Abel’s now. Ken bought his snazzy chain in his alt with the money he got from selling it to Abel. Why do you think Abel walks around in the streets and shit in his little tights? He can’t afford clothing now.

34

lol @ snazzy chain. In all seriousness though I think all they have to do is…

-Make him walk like Ryu. (I don’t think he should walk like Akuma though that would be too good lol.)
-Fix the hit box on the Fierce shoryu(so it can work on Rufus/Akuma Dive/Demon kicks better for example)
-just switch Ryu and Kens lp shoryu,(I want to be able to spam mine like they can!)

I kind of like Ken being the hardest working Shoto, those tweaks wouldn’t really buff him just a little tune up. If they did make him all Celestial like Ryu and Akuma I wouldn’t mind, but rather them not.

*Dr.Chaos’s personal request! (Ken can do without them)

-Ken should win all Ex shoryu battles with the shotos, for example they go for the chip kill. They ex srk on my wake up I do it right back and I lose because my invincibility dies out at the end. And there’s doesn’t (I call it the Glide to Die!) They can do that by giving Ryu the most damaging, Akuma most invincibility and Ken the best of both worlds Why? Because every picture he has he’s doing a Shoryu…

-His 3s and ST S.forward.(So I can swat jumpers easier) and

-ST Air Throw!

-ex tatsu starts invincibility through fireballs at startup(well that would probably be too cheap because Ryu and Akuma would just be owned when he
got meter lol(but screw those cheap bastards:grrr:)

35

Pfft, when I play Ken it’s like playing Akuma with WAY more hit points.

36

Pssssshh

Ken has FIRE on his hand.

Duh

37

Just make Ken a bit more agile and faster on his feet. That’s all he really needs to make him more competative.

At the moment his target combo is actually worse than his heavy punch. It does less damage when used in a combo due to scaling and even if it’s the first hit you do it still matches the damage and does less stun. It is actually completely pointless and it often whifs if you’re not right on top of them.

I wouldn’t mind if he has his air throw back and if either his new super is easier to combo into or getting the full ultra out of FADC works better that would be nice too.

38

On second thought just give him psycho powers like in SF2 the movie and give him Bison’s teleport :stuck_out_tongue:

39

Yes completely agreed with this. NO tatsu knockdown, that’s a stupid suggestion everyone keeps giving. Since a lot of his strong combos include tatsu’s… if it only hit once, it would be useless and weak.

I agree with the +1, and the freaking gief ultraing, (although I wouldnt use it on him anyways)

I wouldnt say Ill drop him if he got a better hadoken lol | : cause thatll just mean hes better then before, even though he isnt suppose to use it like that. Cause I can play fine with him now.

im just hoping his next ultra will be usefull, or easy to ultra in | : I dont want him to turn top tier, cause then he’ll get overused again.

A 2 hitter would really help to. I think he got a few in 3’s

40

i think that this idea is just plain bad. because ryu and ken’s sweeps are the same total number of frames as is, ryu just has more recovery on his than ken, while ken has more start-up than ryu.

if they gave ken the quick start-up then it would mean he could be punished on a blocked sweep like ryu, no thanks.

oh and i’m gonna sign my name to the list of ken’s not wanting his tatsu’s to knock-down… it’s a integral part of his rushdown offense. and to whoever said it’s a 50/50 after ex tatsu… that’s just not true, ex tatsu leaves you at a frame advantage which means you have better odds of dealing damage than they do. their only options are: block/tech or srk. while we can combo them if they attempt to throw-tech, so it puts things slightly more in kens favor.

edit: his hk tatsu leaves him at -2, not -1. would be nice if it left him even or at -1 only, shouldn’t get punished for landing a combo on gief