Sometimes, I think the damage scaling is what’s really working against Ken. Think of the damage he’d get off of Tatsu combos and such if the damage scaling was a little more forgiving. 
Guess I’m headed to the feature request thread…
:u: well Ken should combo more often than Ryu… should anyway.
I’m going to jump on specs MvSF Ken talk since i don’t know what i’m talking about and think his last line was awesome.
SRK: all 3 (lp/mp/hp) should burn stun, need 2 hits plus to kd (so mp/hp can), then…
- have better forward range than ryu’s (hp does, how bout lp/mp)
- have more invincibility frames or less start up; (pick one) they already have less recovery than ryu’s on block.
lp.srk- wouldn’t kd but have -12 frame adv on block and +1 frame adv on hit; add +1 frame of startup and +2 frames of invincibility.
mp.srk- wouldn’t always land both hits for kd on far foes so -2 frame adv on single hit after burn stun;
hp.srk- wouldn’t always land all 3 hits for kd on far foes so -8 frame adv on single hit and -4 frame adv on two hits after burn stun; 3rd hit does 40 dmg.
ex.srk-
Hadou: sliding start up and recovery frames w/ less range but bigger hit box
lp.hadou 16 startup w/ 43 recovery; 90% of screen
mp.hadou 15 startup w/ 45 recovery; 75% of screen
hp.hadou 14 startup w/ 47 recovery; 60% of screen
ex.hadou 14 startup w/ 44 recovery; 105% of screen
~ air.hadou could work off of akuma’s mp.air hadou angle.
lp.air slower than akuma’s
mp.air same as akuma’s
hp.air faster than akuma’s
ex.air releases two at once w/ speed of buttons used.
Tatsumaki: rising MvSF style is very different from any SF4 shot spin and should start from a rising knee SSF2 style; starts lower than ryu’s but rises slightly on every spin kick.
lk.tatsu w/ a knee [50]and 2 spins[x40] this ends same height as ryu; 1st two hits connect on crouching foe and force stand.
mk.tatsu w/ a knee [60]and 3 spins[x40] this ends slightly higher than ryu’s; 1st two hits connect on crouching foe and force stand.
hk.tatsu w/ a knee [80]and 4 spins[x40] this ends higher than ryu’s
ex.tatsu w/ a knee[60], 4 spins[x40], and falling crescent[80] this ends with an overhead that’s safer than the old ex.tatsu.
crazy kicks: to not kill on abel’s roll and can be ken’s go to FACD tool. all cancelable into :r:+:mk:
lk.crazy inside crescent, slow start with AA & full Ultra set up properties.
mk.crazy outside crescent, fast start with 2 hits.
hk.crazy not a crescent, med start with kd or push back.
ex.crazy chains any two; lk+mk will stun, mk+hk will kd, hk+lk will launch
I’d like to see this return as an EX, because there’s no reason it shouldn’t knockdown, and this would be a cool way to get that done.
Most of these things scare me. I don’t know about his shoryu not knocking down. It just seems kinda weird to me. I don’t understand the burn stun stuff either. Does that mean if you hit em once, but the other hits don’t connect, they’ll just sit there on fire for a bit?
I don’t mind the hadoken stuff, so long as none of them have a quick recovery like Ryu and Akuma. Ken doesn’t need to start using his fireball more than he already does. I could live with the one that goes the shortest distance recovering a little faster, but that’s still kinda pushing it.
No air fireball. It was justified when EVERYONE could throw fireballs and such in the air. I don’t think we need Akuma Jr… As awesome as it would be, I just don’t think it suits Ken (unless of course everyone could do it, too).
I am not a fan of changing the Tatsu too much. I love the way it works now, they just need to make it work like it’s suppose to. If mk and rh tatsu were +1 and +2 respectively, then I guess I could work with the EX tatsu being that weird upward one (though I think it will mess up the way you can hit with the very tip of the c.mk and still combo an EX tatsu).
For crazy kicks, I was thinking something like this:
lk kick: Outside Cresent - Quick start up. Decent damage (less than an MK tatsu though). Maybe enough frame advantage to link a jab, but the push back is too far to link into something too big (c.jab, c.fierce, tatsu combo).
mk kick: Roundhouse - Basically just looks like third strike Ken’s standing mk. It will hit people jumping away and jumping in. It gives Ken +1 or +2, but does less than a Tatsu.
rh kick: Bootleg Ryu RH - Gives Ken the knockdown everyone wants him to get from his Tatsu. Again, not as much damage as Tatsu, but decent, and you get knockdown, so no worries. It could also act as a pseudo anti air.
EX kick: Spinning Thurst Kick Thing - Ken’s f+RH from Alpha 3. Since it’s EX, it will move Ken forward really fast (probably step kick range). I think it should have a little invincibility (since it does cost meter). If they do add the wall bounce status (One of Juri’s moves causes wallbounce in some gameplay shown of her), then it will do that. Otherwise, it will knockdown full screen.
All are either 0 or +1 on block (so Gief doesn’t get free ultras and supers from them). I dunno… Maybe that’s a bit much? He certainly doesn’t need these. But if he gets something, I hope we get something useful like this.
Ex doesn’t need to knock down. It just needs one more frame of advantage, so you don’t ever EVER get thrown after it. You may get DPed, but at least NEVER thrown.
MvSF Ken in SSF4?
:china: thx for the constructive feedback. Remember this was done on a 5 min whim.
fear not. I’ll explain why… though this is not a solid Ken build for SSF4.
while the lp.srk really should kd… a slow AA with 5 frames of invincibility, 5 frames of start up, +1 frame adv on hit, and as safe as sagat’s hk.T.Knee [-12 frames on block] trumps the adv of a kd. mp/hp SRKs still can kd but only if all there hits connect. This is a throw back to SSF2 [hp.srk only] that was seen in other games [SFA & MvC series] but looks removed in SF4. Extra range with the possibility of less hits and an no kd seemed a fair trade before. Ken could still fully connect right at the range were ryu whiffs but at further ranges not all hits would connect. :xeye: hope that wasn’t confusing. :pleased: and yep you grasp what I meant with burn stun.
well… his recovery improves at the cost of a longer start up. I’m thinking you would probably prefer a one for one frame adjust.
Besides the slight size increase…
hp.hadou would only loose some range from the current setup.
mp.hadou would be 1 frame slower on start up [2 frames slower than ryu] and 2 frames faster on recovery [same recovery as Ryu]; good AA set up.
lp.hadou would be 2 frames slower on start up [3 frames slower than ryu] and 4 frames faster on recovery [recovers 2 frame faster than Ryu]; better AA set up.
ex.hadou is also virtually unchanged by my suggestions.
If i did 1 for 1 frame adjust the lp.hadou would recover like Ryu’s but still be 3 frames slower on startup than Ryu’s 13.
The Air Hadou was only done b/c it was in MvSF and I was looking at imho the best way to translate most of that version of ken into a presumed SSF4 rule set. falling before the lp.air hadou hits would be awesome though and makes for :looney: ex possibilities. :lol: … Akuma Jr
I like it and think it works pretty good now, but with Ono’s love for sean figured the Brazilian could use a good tatsu while Ken gets a psuedo buff MvSF style. None of the tatsu currently have a +2 frame adv as ex.tatsu has +1 frame on hit. Remember ken is king of the mix up; king of combos gets a scaling dmg nerf.
why the knee for 1st hit? faster start up, lo hit, possible launch/float on CH, SSF2
why the slight rise? last hits clear FBs, spin kicks can float foes, more adv but [hk.tatsu is] less safe.
what about the EX? faster than hk.tatsu, the added falling crescent makes the last hit an overhead. Can hit a crouching foe if not cross up… possibly a +2 frame adv on hit & -2 frame on block.
so last hits of mk/hk tatsu are less safe against crouch blockers… 
a fair trade for floating spin kicks.
I tossed in the crazy kicks to avoid requests for his roll (see abel) or a Ryuubi Kyaku (see sean) but pulled from SSF2 for outside and inside crescents… I like the use of SFA3 Ken’s f+RH but think it should be the hk.crazy… the ex.crazy linking two together with CH properties adds more options (and dmg) than before.
imho a quick start move shouldn’t be safe on block and a slow start move shouldn’t be easily punished on block.
ihmo EX should just be noticeably harder to punish than their special counterpart or have some other noted adv [startup invincible, hi dmg, lo recovery, kd].
I think I understand it a little better now… I think… I just like the idea of all fire shoryukens, baby! As long as I can still use the lp version as a counter poke and they all function well as anti air, then I guess I could live with the changed shoryu.
I am just a little worried that folks seeing fireball buffs will cry “Go play Ryu instead!” I’m almost hoping they don’t touch his fireball at all, so they can spend more time improving his rushdown… I’m not saying I wouldn’t mind having a fireball that recovers faster than Ryu’s though. 
I think I just luffs my tatsu combos and post tatsu mix ups. That’s the only reason why I play Ken over everyone else. I think your tatsus may be better statistically (since you get a safe knockdown that can’t be turned around on you, instead of your opponent getting a chance to DP your potential mix up). But if his tatsu was to change that much, then I don’t think I’d enjoy playing him in SSFIV…
Big whoop, though, right? The Ken Army will be minus one flowcharter. 
I get what you’re saying on the quick moves not being safe on block. That does lead to some pretty lame abuse (Tiger Knee Loop). I don’t think they could get away with not adding all of the original crazy kicks, though.
And you sure mention Sean a lot… Did I miss something? We aren’t getting Sean in SSFIV, are we? I can already hear the shoto haters running to their blogs in protest!
I think it would be simple enough do this. Currently if the ultra hits clean roughly 40% of the damage is done with the punches and kicks and 60% with the actual flaming shinryuken. They could easily change this to a 30/70 or 20/80 split keeping the overall damage the ultra does the same.
Y’know I’m tempted to say, make it so Ken gets full Ultra after a juggle. Getting that timing down for SRK>FA>Ultra should be thusly rewarded.
But at the same time, I don’t want to make Ken waaaay OP or anything, so that might be too much.
I don’t think it would be OP. I just don’t think it’s enough to really fix Ken. It would certainly be a great addition. But it’s just not the rushdown tool he needs to do what he was meant to do.
Yeah, no doubt. I just feel like the payoff for learning that timing should yield the same rewards as the Ryus and Sagats of the world get to enjoy 
that’s what i was aiming for… :wonder:i think:rofl:
to be fair, MvSF Ryu had an even bigger Hadouken so 1 for 1 frame adjustments would probably be as far as SSF4 Ken should ever go.
hmm… 
what if a happy medium were established?:chat:
If the knee (1st hit of SSF2 tatsu) was the only hit that juggled like Able’s cr.Hp, while the spin kicks only floated airborne foes, then one could space [tip of cr.mk] for the knee to whiff and keep a hi lvl mixup game. The EX tatsu wouldn’t have to kd either; . So if knee whiffs and not an airborne foe…
:lk: tatsu +1 frame adv on hit. (~like the lp.SRK would be and ex.tatsu was)
:mk: tatsu 0 frame adv on hit. (like is now)
:hk: tatsu -1 frame adv on hit. (like is now)
EX tatsu +2 frame adv on hit. (buffed by dmg increase and overhead finish)
note: spin kicks (1st spin anyway) could also cause crouching foes to stand on hit so last hits of mk/hk don’t whiff 
or knee could force crouching foes to stand on block? :rolleyes: which ever Guile’s cl.hp and cr.hp does should be fine.
fair enough, so long as one can psuedo juggle into Ultra like Sagat’s :r:+HK or like Ryu’s DP
I would be more than surprised if he were in, but wouldn’t complain :arazz:unless Dudley doesn’t get in:annoy: as I want to pit him against an improved Dan. I only mention him as Ono seemed to randomly transition to him in at least two interviews and rather ken not absorb his plausible move-set like in SvC.
Damn. That tatsu looks like a lot of work, but sounds interesting as hell. I don’t know if they WOULD do it, but that is a really bad ass concept nonetheless. Good shit, sir. :china:
If Ken did get some of these buffs, that would be pretty awesome.
That Tatsu frame advantage on hit looks good.
His new haircut in sf4 makes him look even more like a douchebag then normal. Fix that shit, capcom.
Yep that’s all we need, make things easier for the sea of Ken scrubs. Super Ken Fighter 4 here we go.
Shut your bitch ass up with that noise. Stop getting raped by flowcharts and fuck off with that complaining bullshit.
To be honest True Tatsu I would be satisfied with just the +2 on hit of that ex tatsu lol. Thats a really good fucking idea though…seriously.
i mean his idea’s are thought provoking, but i think all that needs to be done on his tatsu’s is just buff the frame adv, and he’ll be okay[with tatsu’s at least]
co fuckin sign. his hair is so douchey.
on another note, we are all sick of Evil Ken and Shin Akuma. How about we bring in Violent Ken from SVC? he would be sick because he has teleport. this would greatly greatly improve kens sucky wakeup options.
hmmm as a ken fan i have to ask…
will capcom pay attention to all the improvements listed here?
Ya, because its already easy for the Ryu scrubs.