A little late but I haven’t seen anyone really pick up on that so… As a simple lurker I’d be extremely curious to see the outcome of in-depth discussion of every single character like that, and it might alleviate the “oh no why are we talking about X” again complaints or going in circles.
You’re making it easier than it sounds though. I think a lot of people are just frustrated with Hawkeye because he’s new and he is one of the few characters who can actually play keepaway. You have to actually get away from these rushdown characters first. Which isn’t impossible by any means, but while Hawkeye makes standard rush down HARDER the godlike rush down characters in this game make running away HARDER. See my point?
Also, don’t forget I have Hawkeye as A-, so neither of us are arguing that he isn’t very, very good.
X-23 plays the most like 3S Ibuki for me of all the characters. Emphasis on left/right pass through mix ups, strong close range normals and a couple strong mid range ones, very frame trap and gimmick heavy etc.
Well TBH my ORIGINAL team that I picked out in my head before Vanilla came out was going to be Dante/Viper/Doom (I would have probably ordered it with Viper first but yeah). I heard both Viper and Dante were heavy on execution initially and I learned the hard way about using an execution heavy character to learn how to play a new game (I would have understood Vanilla SFIV much more quickly basics wise if I just stuck with like Ken or something first). Which made me go ahead and pick up Buktooth’s day one team of Chun Li/Wesker/Doom since Wesker seemed like a character that emphasized on both rushdown and spacing without being too difficult to use. Plus I felt confident with him being a solid character I could run for a while since at that time everyone was too busy worrying about Sentinel to even realize that Wesker was a character completely better than him on all accounts minus assists.
I ended up trying Viper later on but…I just wasn’t feeling the rapid seismo stuff and at that point I already liked how I could relate X-23 so much to Ibuki that I just kinda gave up on it. I see now that she Viper isn’t totally reliant on the rapid seismo stuff and she can TOD mad easy but…just doesn’t fit my style as much as 23 does.
Also ppl that talk about hawkeye forget to mention that he has xfactor loops (net arrow) in which he can run through your entire team so he also has a comeback factor in xfactor
I’m much more scared of being opened up by Wesker, Dorm, Dante, Felicia, Magneto, Firebrand, Vergil, etc. in XF than Hawkeye.
But I think we are all forgetting about the Bionic Arm factor in this equaltion
Hawkeye has one answer to help his runaway: slide.
This means the standard super jump and reign projectiles that some use actually favors Hawkeye.
Hawkeye being in A- for the most part is still too low considering his great matchups, his great assists and his great DHC capability.
- The slide is going to help him runaway, but it’s too dependent on what the opponent is doing. I wouldn’t advise many characters to super jump and rain projectiles down on Hawkeye. They need to approach.
- His assist line up is no more special than Dooms, Task, or Dante’s.
- His DHC capability is good, for sure, but it isn’t game breaking nor does it particularly possess game breaking traits like Vergils DHC synergy etc.
A- is hella good IMO. It means you’re a top competitor and more than just viable as far as tournaments go. Hawkeye just doesn’t swing games in his favor like the other top characters do though. In a fast game like marvel, momentum means a lot. Hawkeye doesn’t play to momentum, he plays to control. Unfortunately, it’s control he can’t always consistently keep against certain characters.
If Hawkeye is on point, you need to adjust accordingly by starting close in the neutral we careful assist placement. If he isn’t first, which I think he is better 2nd, you need to establish your game plan. If you lose your first character to your opponents, and they switch in Hawkeye, the immediately get to start at Hawkeyes advantage. If you can kill their 1st character though, Hawkeye has little to do against incoming mixups.
MODOK?
Again I can list his bad matchups on one hand. And yes, why I say Dante/Doom need to stay in S and Task should be in A. There ability to contribute to an insane portion of team chemistry is ridiculous. As is Strider’s via Vajira.
A- to me is characters who have something just above average. He as you have stated lacks the overwhelming mixups that only certain characters have.
Hawkeye is a char who has some of the best matchups but does lack bullshit which is why he isn’t up there with Zero. Could you imagine a Hawkeye who had frame advantage on gimlet? Now that would be stupid.
EDIT: MODOK… knew I forgot something. Dumbass baby in a chair. 
But what does MODOK do? I still am unsure whether he is supposed to be a Magneto type char or supposed to spam projectiles… Whatever. Too weird for me to use.
s0viet’s tier list
Spoiler
S: Zero Viper Firebrand Dante
A+ Dormammu Wesker Magneto Strider Dr. Doom Ammeterasu Trish Phoenix Vergil
A: Morrigan Wolverine X-23 Deadpool Hawkeye Taskmaster Spencer Nova Chris Jill Frank Rocket Raccon Felicia Super-Skrull Spider-Man Captian America Storm
B Ryu Akuma Sentinel Hulk Iron Fist MODOK Thor Dr. Strange V. Joe Shuma-gorath Haggar Chun-li
C: She-hulk Iron-man Arthur Hsien-Ko Ghost Rider Tron
D: Phoenix Wright
S tier… have tools that can dominate most of the cast below,can either outright kill off of any touch, or can be completely untouchable
A+ not quite as dominant as the S tier characters but with the right team builds can be a match for ANY team
A Solid all around and can fight anyone, might need help to fight the upper tiered characters
B characters that need more help than not or come in as a godlike assist, but having them in is usually not favorable without a LOT of help or commitment to the character
C… these characters need alot of help reguardless now, though some have some gimmicks that makes them effective, otherwise avoid these characters
D… Ugh… wasted character slot IMHO
I would assume Firebrand is more along the lines of “untouchable” than “kill off any touch”?
ahh that actually makes sense to me
it’s kind of funny that the original team you wanted is so good
but yeah i can see how x-23 is a better bet then viper if you like the left/right mixups
Yeah the funny/sad thing is that my theory team that I came up with BEFORE the game even came out probably strength wise is the strongest team I put together. I had originally seen X-23 and thought she looked really cool but saw on the forums that nobody even knew how to play her so I kinda just brushed off away from her for a while. I then realized I wanted a character to DHC glitch into Wesker and realized X-23 could start the glitch. Then realized she totally fit my play style like to a tee and now I can’t get off her.
I was afraid of not knowing enough about the game to put together teams that really work in the beginning but now I realize that any team that I want to put together with solid assists I can make work. X-23 doesn’t DHC that great into Dante anymore now that jam session assist has been nerfed but playing her for the resets I can still build up the meter I need for dirt naps to kill off incoming characters faster. Especially if they have higher health thresholds. I was thinking about going the OTG relaunch route to improve her damage and just turn her into TOD character but that seems boring and wasting of a utility assist to clear space for her. Especially since Dante and Iron Man seem to work great together both ways so I can always fall on that.
Not necessarily directed at the Hawkeye people, but in general I think people need to get more perspective with the “X is too low” stuff we heard pretty regularly in the old thread and will probably hear a lot in the new version too.
Right now in Ultimate ( who knows how the meta will develop over time… ) there are **a lot **of characters that are pretty solid, decent, playable on the right team, have some bullshit, etc. Saying your character is B, Low A, or even C tier doesn’t make them a bad character by any stretch of the imagination in this game, but there always is going to be a weaker character. Emphasis on the last two letters.
Not sure where I was going with this exactly… It just seems like at this point nearly every character in the game is being called high tier by someone and none of the generally agreed upon bottom ten are in the bottom five or something.
Lol I’m done with this argument. I have no idea wtf game you’re playing where shuma doesn’t have trouble getting a hit…
Well…I mean I feel that’s kinda hard to avoid. A lot of players simply have their character pride and you’re going to get that guy coming in with their preach about their main character (some with obvious avatars of that character) no matter what. I would say people have been pretty consistent in offering that PW and Tron are ass at least. Personally I feel Tron is underrated and still too good to be butt tier, but I just don’t like how PW’s style is based around random evidence. Just doesn’t fit me well for doing good in the long run. P****W is one of the two characters I would definitely consider ass tier/C tier right now. Along with Hsien Ko still. I think everyone else is strong enough to stay out of near unviable tier.
If you’re getting this feeling that every character is being called high tier by someone it’s probably just due to the nature of the game where most everybody has strong hit boxes and BS situations that can kill you off quickly regardless of their tier. Akin to Super Turbo or Hokuto No Ken.
In HnK Jagi is like the worst character but a top player of Jagi will wreck you like he was a top tier character with his own set of unique tools.
My opinion hawkeye with a loop now means that the opponent has to be really careful about there moves they make or else they will be facing a minus 400k or a touch of death from full screen…FROM FULL FUCKING SCREEN. I dont know any other charecter in the game without a teleport that can touch of death without every being near you.
Got vids?
I do agree that his ability to full combo from the entire full screen is a unique trait that no other character has access to. Even Ghost Rider has a dead spot for his chain towards the end of the viewing screen.
If i can record it later i will show you a video of it, i will try to find one on youtube of him using it