Wolverine has a better air game than IF though and that helps him out there.
With B. Slash losing it projectile invincibility, Logan lost a lot of his power against the top tier characters.
In vanilla he was starting to drop off due to the fact he couldn’t cancel out of his two approach options into some kind of block.
Evo showed us this. Viscant ROLLED over every Logan user when Logan was out with Haggar assist. Hell, PR Balrog’s Tron did more work than Logan was able to.
His main issues is that he doesn’t have the huge ranged normals, specials and general spacing game. He also doesn’t provide any real strong assists like half of the S tiers like Dante, Strider and to a lesser extent Dorm. Overall Viper/Zero/Wesker are just better than him period. He’s good for being the easiest character to play but the best…not so much.
Having an attack that moves you across the screen at the same time is really important for rush down characters imo. People act like you can’t use BS to get in, or punish things you’d otherwise have great difficulty punishing.
I wanted to comment of JWongs list.
I actually think its a good list for the metagame. If I was going to a tournament tomorrow, those are the characters i would be making sure I had a plan to bring down. I’m not gonna worry about Viper (for example), because I’m never gonna have to beat one since no one plays her. It’s what that payer was referring to when he said the best advantage you have on Viper is that no one plays her, you don’t have to beat a character you don’t have to fight. This is also why I wouldn’t worry about jerks like Morrigan or Jill either, and it’s also why you see people get blown up pretty bad when they do run into someone who can play the broke but unpopular character. Zero was in this boat until recently unless you all forgot.
Iron Fist can use kara rekka cancelling to move across the screen, he also has excellent frame traps and parry traps Justin isn’t making use of. People act like Iron Fist is completely useless, he suffers from the exact same problems wolverine suffers from, they’re both exactly he same type of character, he just takes more skill than Wolverine to use.
“LOOOOOO~SERRR!!”
Theres a couple characters I dont even get mad at when they taunt. Spidey is one of them :3
You’re not gonna catch anyone off guard doing rekkas from 3/4 of the screen away. As a matter of fact you’re just asking to die since it’s so telegraphed and also unsafe on block, you’re just going to get hit. What parry and frame traps? Chi has one hit of armour and you can’t even attack immediately. It actually leaves you at worse frames than if you had canceled into nothing, so whatever they were mashing on is going to eat up your measly one hit and then you can say goodbye to Iron Fist. Wolverine has the ability to get back in your face while attcking and make it safe, he also has a move which forces people to respect his shit in the air and on the ground. Upback will not save you from Wolverine but against Iron Fist, there isn’t much reason not to upback.
I’m still surprised people don’t know that Tokido also lost at EVO by this guy, and Rammasama was the guy that eliminated Tokido.
Yeah, Dorm being a candidate for S tier isn’t surprising. You can tell Wong has high opinions of Dorm…
What the fuck Tokido.
Have a full team with 5 bars, XF and Phoenix on deck.
Opponent comes in with Phoenix, 5 bars and X-Factor
Blow lvl 1XF and three meters
What happened to this thread. There weren’t nearly this many incredibly bad posters before. Now it’s become a landfill of idiots, misinformed players, trolls, and fanboys.
I miss when it was just MysticRay, Caliber Champ, and that one gopher who only posted when Zero or Viper lost.
I know Dorm is a good character, but top 5? I keep harping on this, but he loses very badly to rushdown.
Spencer and Wesker are really difficult matchups for Dormammu unless he has a GTFO assist.
Felicia and Spiderman also give Dormammu headaches.
In no order:
Top 5: Zero, Viper, Dante, Wesker, Dark Phoenix
Top 10: Strider, Magneto, Spencer, Wolverine, Doom
Next Tier: Dorm, Firebrand , Vergil, Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Trish, MODOK, Felicia, Spiderman, Amaterasu, Morrigan
Everything else below these characters are all pretty close.
Masta CJ was doing a fine job handling Noel Brown’s Wolverine rushdown at Apex so I find it hard to believe he has this insane difficulty with rushdown.
I am not saying Dormammu can’t BE the hammer, but if you manage to get pressure on him, he has limited options. If Dormammu gets rolling, he’s very powerful, but this can be said about most characters in the game.
Wolverine does 1 million damage off an IOH / crossup / low … <- big reason he’s still good.
He has the best mixup under tatsu / shopping cart period.
Invincible assists are no longer a factor in this game … period … which makes it much harder to get him off you. The HSD on haggar assist only a couple characters can even get half-decent combo’s in that situation.
Sorry for the delay in posting. I prefer fixing some of the errors in my list before posting it. As stated in an earlier post there’s more emphasis on getting the scarier characters acurate and there’s a distinct chance that I’m lacking information on characters I perceive as lower tier, so feel free to give me feedback which I’ll take into consideration. Relatively ordered within tiers, but subject to change.
Properly assisted point characters
Point characters:
S tier (3): These characters need to be able to obsolete at least one character from the game that no other character can, have strong match ups and minimal bad match ups.
-C.Viper: When properly assisted her worst match ups are 4-6 and that’s against the other S-tiers. Seismic hammer, laser and Vajira is among the strongest set of pressure based space control tools in the game, pair this with the best reversal and the normal high damage, incredible mix ups, unblockables, etc, and this character is the best in the game.
-Firebrand: Beats both of the top tiers and has the best rush down in the game, when properly assisted is impossible to block and mandates cross counters to even stay partially okay while people without invincible, comboable cross counters can just be kind of screwed or need to X-factor. His low damage is a problem, but proper team design prevents this from being an issue, especially with his level of offense.
-Zero: Although his neutral doesn’t fully control an area quite as well as Viper’s it trades off that overbaring power to be pretty amazing everywhere. Assists fix less problems for Zero so he still has the same issues even with them, but his problems are fairly minimal and are all overshadowed by how well he can control space and convert it into death. I’m unsure if he’s better or worse than Firebrand.
A Tier (6): These characters are all very strong to the point that in a game without the previous 3 there would be no question that they’re the best, they have tools that accomplish a goal better than lower tier equivalents.
-Dante: Dante was nerfed, that said, his match ups against the vast majority of the characters are still in his favor, just by a smaller margin, if a character isn’t in S Tier they probably don’t beat Dante. If his normals were faster and he had better defensive options for once people were inside paired with his old damage scaling he’d still be S, but as of now he’s still the best team mate in the game for pretty much every character. Dante still dominates neutral, has good space control and good rush down.
-Hawkeye: This is the only character outside of S Tier who beats 2 S tier characters. His space control game is okay, his chip is beyond fantastic, and he gets to blow up every character who can’t become invincible or block at will. When paired with the right team he approaches MvC2 Cable levels of preventing people from pressing buttons and is a major threat with or without gauge if played properly.
-Vergil: Regular Vergil would barely make A- tier, he has a lot of problems, however the fact that this character is merged with Devil Trigger Vergil means he has to be here. The character can use minimal effort to enforce dominance on a lot of situations as long as he has meter. After Viper I think he’s the character who can best use meter in neutral in the game and is a terrifying force. Pair this with his outlandish normals, projectile cutting powers and ways to get aroudn his weaknesses he’s incredibly strong.
-Dormammu: This character although not the best zoning or space control once he has you in the space that he does control is one of the scariest. Despite the nerfs to flame carpet he is more powerful than before, his rushdown is better now, and dark spells got an entirely unnecessary buff that let’s him dominate the neutral game in situations he used to just die. He has really bad match ups against a few characters still and that’s the only thing keeping him from being higher in A tier.
-Magneto: In Vanilla I feel Magneto was the third best character. That’s no longer the case as other characters got buffs while his fusion of nerfs and buffs wasn’t positive enough to compensate. He’s still good at controlling neutral space and transfering between zoning, rushdown and defensive play without any real issues. He’s a very balanced strong character who is fairly good at everything without being as busted at some things as the S-Tiers any more.
-Wesker: I know having Wesker as ninth is controversial and what I’m about to say may be even more so. Wesker is weaker now than he was in Vanilla. He’s terrifying still and a lot of his things are very strong, but the nerf to disruptor assist paired with the gun nerf changes how much reward he can get for playing as safely as possible. In Vanilla taking minimal risks with just super jump gun, teleports and disruptor assist you could hit confirm from full screen into a dead character via DHC glitch from either raw tags or TAC, now he’s still incredibly scary, but needs to take more risks in order to get large rewards which I feel is a serious downgrade. He’s still incredibly powerful however.
A- Tier(10): These are Very strong characters who have ways to cover their faults paired with strengths that are absolutely terrifying.
-Doctor Doom: It’s very hard for me to separate Doctor Doom from the fact that if he’s on a team he can support the other characters no matter what type of play style they want. However he’s still an incredibly powerful character on point and much easier to use than in his previous incarnation. I feel his neutral game is probably the worst out of the people in the top three tiers, but he has better zoning when afar and pressure when inside. He’s a strong character and amazing team mate.
-Morrigan: It may be controversial to have her this high but I don’t know. I feel that basing it off match ups she destroys all low mobility characters and that buffs her up, but she has some fairly debilitating match ups against characters like Dante which is a terrible match up to be bad at. Being able to take meter away from the enemy in your combos instead of building it for them is incredible when so many of the good characters in this game have such intimidating ways to use meter.
-Phoenix: She’s still Phoenix, she’s dramatically weaker in this game since the effort necessary to get Dark Phoenix is higher, but Dark Phoenix still is an incredible problem that requires hard work to beat. There isn’t all that much to say about her.
-M.O.D.O.K.: Another choice that may surprise some people. I’ve felt that since Vanilla M.O.D.O.K. had a chance to be incredibly strong, if he sets up his ideal situations he’s a problem for everyone in the game. It’s very hard to tier him since getting into an ideal situation can be a nightmare. I feel that with time he’s a character that will grow stronger despite some of his flaws.
-Spencer: Solid neutral and mobility for a character with his design. Obviously ridiculously high damage and more importantly has incredibly practical ways of setting it up just like other top tier characters. I feel he has a bad match up against characters who can zone him blow up assists and become more invincible than him at will such as Viper.
-Spider-Man: This character, like M.O.D.O.K. is under rated. He has amazing mobility and tools that are incredibly unintuitive to use. I ranked him too low on my vanilla tier list and despite various nerfs his overall neutral game is stronger and it was already good to begin with. When people invest time into this character he’ll be a problem.
-Trish: One of the stronger air to ground lame characters, she’s no longer the top one with the inclusion of Firebrand, buffing Morrigan, etc. But she’s still very strong and flexible, it’s completely reasonable to play this character almost any way and you can still enjoy some level of success. She requires a little bit of work to bring out her scariest aspects, but she’s very potent.
-Task master: His theme… Just kidding. Task Master was the Balrog of Vanilla who was incredibly stable and solid across the board, the ability to cancel mighty swing was the single most intelligent and well balanced buff in ultimate. He now has dramatically better mix up, pressure, and movement without breaking his game. People still don’t know how to use his normals correctly and they’re a problem for the vast majority of the cast.
-Strider: The only reason Strider is this low is this is a point with assists tier list. Strider IMO is the best assist for the best character in the game but that won’t raise him any here. He has phenomenal mix ups and ways to bipass his damage, he can fill the screen with stuff, has amazing pressure, over all he’s great. He would be higher if he had more than excaliber and double jump for air movement. Pair this with the fact that although his projectiles are good they have no durability characters with exceptionally strong zoning who can option select blow up teleports safely can be a real problem, even if it’s by spending gauge since chipping out Strider can happen so incredibly quickly.
B Tier(11): These characters may have the strongest options within their field, but it’s attached to a crippling weakness that makes them far from as terrifying as the A- tier people. Alternatively they may not have the crippling weaknesses but just be overshined by one of the A- tiers in everything.
-X-23: This character is one of the ones that I always remember is good, but kind of forget about her until I play a long set as the character. Her normals are amazing, her dash is amazing, dirt nap is amazing, she’s tiny and can weave through projectiles. The main issue is that her 5 options in the air aren’t particularly godlike for getting around things and a lot of characters can zone her. Once she gets momentum going she’s clearly a contender.
-Wolverine: Wolverine was nerfed, but he is still the same once he gets in and makes you start blocking. It’s important to treat him with respect or else you’ll lose to a properly spaced dash C or instant overhead light. His strengths when he’s inside are good enough to warrant him being here.
-Felicia: One of the other strong pure rush down characters. She has much better ways to get in than she used to, does good enough damage and has incredible mix up once inside. Kitty helper is a problem.
-Jill: B tier must be rush down tier cause Jill is another character where once she’s inside her combination of normals, teleports, multiple overheads, lows, cross ups, etc make her impossible to block for long, unfortunately characters like Viper have option selects to blow her up if she gets in and can keep her out well on top of that. Machine Gun Spray is amazing.
-Rocket Raccoon: This character is very hard to place in B Tier, his strengths are amazing! Top level movement, really unique powerful tools such as Mad Hopper, useful tools for lots of situations, and amazing rush down. Then I remember his air hit confirms, normals, projectile durability and that’s why he’s here. Lots of strong strengths paired with lots of painful weaknesses.
-Thor: I’m not certain that he should be here, but I think that Thor is a threat, projectile zoning isn’t as terribly awesome against him as it should be and his mix up can be scary, but normal based zoning from Dante, Taskmaster etc just shuts him down so hard that it’s miserable. People who can keep him at sword length can convert into damage in such miserable situations for the big guy. I believe he ended up the highest of the heavies on my list.
-Deadpool: People have been claiming he’s S tier and I don’t currently agree. He has some cool tools for controlling space and going in, being one of the few characters who has angled up straight and angled down in one set of space control tools. However his strengths aren’t as overbaring as those who place higher than him on the tier list so I’m putting him here.
-Hulk: Hulk has a lot of interesting tools that are very strong that I think mostly make up for his weaknesses, he has good pressure, things to eliminate a lot of zoning tools and command movements that can double as pressure. However his movement is odd and clunky, this may not matter at all at some point but I feel he commits too much in situations higher tiers don’t need to commit in.
-Storm: A lot of people more knowledgeable than me on Storm have said she’s ass so this is one of the placements that is most likely to be wrong. That said however I feel that with as many instant punishes for any location in this game as there are DHC into hail storm got such a dramatic kick up in validity that she needs to be here. Also her movement is exceptionally good to the point that if this were a movement tier list she’d be top 2.
-Frank West: This character has a role on a team and stable ways to get to higher levels where he’s arguably quite good. He definitely needs a team developed entirely with him in mind to get the maximum yield out of him, but with things to aid his pressure he can legitimately play a stronger rush down chip game than the vast majority of the cast.
-Doctor Strange: Strong tools tempered by painful weaknesses. Spell of Vishanti is amazing and could warrant him being higher, especially when paired with his excellent mix ups, teleports and ranged pressure tools to force mistakes. However he has miserable normals for a lot of situations, issues against characters that can blast through his stuff on reaction in ways that 7 rings doesn’t help him with and gets blown up by a lot of strong characters in general especially once they’re inside.
-Nova: Solid left right based tri-jump character, I’m not terribly certain on my placement of him and it may change once I see more of him, but I’m not terribly impressed as is.
B- Tier (13): These characters have some really strong tools, but the amount of weaknesses outweigh it by a fairly significant margin.
-Sentinel: I’m conflicted about putting Sentinel up here. It’s almost entirely based around his jump B being amazing. Sentinel takes a very careful thought process of why every button needs to be pressed in order to get the most out of him but he has among the best limbs in the game when used right. We all know his wall of flaws so I won’t dwell on that.
-Amaterasu: The only member of top 7 who was totally brutalized by the ultimate changes. It seems like everything aside from X-factor went against her to lower her overall viability. The primary issue was the nerf to her movement and lack of high enough durability projectiles to cover approach. She has reflector but that’s more for maintaining or in certain match ups. I feel that she has a miserable time against a lot of characters now.
-Super Skrull: Unsure on placing him here, he’s a strong character and not as random as people like to think he is when played well. He has some massively under rated tools and normals that control a lot of space in very sword like ways. His mobility although okay is far from the good characters and I feel a primary issue in his game plan, if he had flight and 8 way dash I would contemplate playing this character.
-Chris: This character just became more polarized, I still feel that every flight mode and air domination character beats him including Sentinel, however the match ups he doesn’t lose he does much better in, able to really hammer characters who don’t have good responses to his tools.
-Captain America: He’s better than he was, he’s still flawed and nowhere near as good as the top tier. The main thing he gained from Ultimate was that teams need to be less specifically tailored to him in order to get the full yield out of his tools, but when properly assisted his strengths didn’t magnify that greatly.
-Viewtiful Joe: Match up specific strengths relatively fast, very useful projectile, over all some good strengths but the characters that get to stop them just become painful problems for him as his normals leave much to be desired.
-Akuma: I’m not buying the Akuma on point hype yet. I feel he has some great tools for punishes and now has better mix ups, but the primary reason to play him is still his assist as the higher tier characters can do everything he does better.
-Ryu: One of the characters who hits like a truck and has a few options he shuts down by existing, but I feel his neutral game is lack luster in comparison with many others.
-Ghost Rider: This is another character that’s incredibly match up specific. If characters can zone him or have decent ways around his tools he needs to work far too hard for far too minimal a reward.
-Iron-Man: The worst 8 way air dash character, if they’d just changed everything about him except his dash he would have been a much stronger character. However being the worst 8 way air dash character still means you have some level of movement and he has other strengths which outweigh the lower characters.
-Chun-Li: Improved, real reversal, can deal with up back, this may be placing her terribly low but I don’t have a thorough enough understanding of her new tools to put her higher than any of the other characters that are above her.
-Haggar: A lot of people have been putting Haggar as A tier which I feel is rather generous, he’s better but he still has a lot of faults that keep him from being anywhere near that high in my opinion.
-Arthur: Another character where some of his strengths are really scary but I fear his faults just keep him from being higher.
C Tier (3): These characters flaws are apparent before their strengths and are much harder to get around than the B- Tiers.
-Shuma Gorath: Bad mobility, terribly risky, needs to work exceptionally hard to get the same rewards as stronger characters. Not bad mix up once inside, strong assist, adorable <3.
-Nemesis: I really am not seeing the hype train, his tools seem to not work against good characters at all since it seems all of them have options that blow up everything he does. He’s another case of debilitating match ups lowering his placement.
-Phoenix Wright: Some of you may be shocked at this, but I don’t have PW in the lowest tier, when he’s set up properly and everything goes his way he can be a problem for characters above him. However I don’t have enough information to figure out whether stable ways of doing that are possible. Even just PW with 2 pieces of evidence is better than people are rating him however.
C- Tier (2): The amount of work you need to do with these characters in order to warrant reward is phenomenal, they may have some strengths, but it’s very hard to capitalize on them with their weaknesses.
-Iron-Fist: Amazing dash and damage output paired with few if any other redeaming qualities. Justin winning with this character shows how strong a player he really is.
-She-Hulk: She was just above average in Vanilla and they nerfed her beyond belief, she has positive points but she’s far from threatening in a far neutral game and it’s much easier to keep her there than before.
D Tier (2): These characters are very hard to win with against players of equivalent skill levels.
-Tron: The fact that I have her as the second worst character shows just how strong everyone in this game is, it’s not a matter of her being bad as much as everyone else being really good. Winning with her is possible and she does have some positive points, it’s just they all get outweighed by her faults.
-Hsien-Ko: This is a character that such simple things would help so much, if she had fixed mobility she would instantly be vastly better as a character, I have no idea why Capcom would keep her this comparatively slow with the rest of the cast.
I’ll write up an additional list with assist and DHC tiers in a bit, but this is what I have for now, hope to hear all of your thoughts!
Everyone loses to rush down get out of here with that. Dorm also has the means to keep people away from him with most of the cast wish they had.
Most of the characters in the game are limited in what they can do once their gap is closed any way. The game just doesn’t give you enough options outside of pushblock to deal with rush. As long as you can get enough space to throw around sword ass normals (Dorm/Dante/Zero etc). you’re good to go. Most of the game is just spacing until you can frame trap someone into a mix up with an assist.
Once you push block them out enough to get some space you can pretty much throw Dorm’s normals + assists out where you want. Plus they always have to respect his supers when calling assists.
I just wanted to point out, Chrisis mentioned anti-Jill OS’s, they exist to blow up cross up-overhead teleport, but Jill has other options, many of which will actually punish an attempt at the OS, so I don’t particularly recommend using that particular OS.
Doesn’t EX burn kick’s first section hit behind her enough for the teleport behind, high enough in the air for up and far enough back for back? Though it is still vulnerable to somersault which in turn has other options. I think if you time the EX BKF right that it lets you block somersault too.
Chris Redfield is too low.
And for your reasons of Hsien-Ko, the reason she’s bad as she is now is because of her Golden Armor.
In before you go “Wait Golden Armor is her only redeeming quality!” Consider two instances of separate versus games with permanent hyper armor. In MvC1, Golden War Machine was incredibly silly. As for TvC, we had PTX-40A and Gold Lightan, AKA the giants. You know how well that went, because I surely do. All match-ups involving a hyper armor character becomes a game of cat and mouse.
Permanent hyper armor (or semi-permanent for Hsien-Ko’s case) is not something to easily sleep on. Let’s say we make Hsien-Ko faster and hit harder, to the point where she becomes a reasonably good character. At this point, the question to consider is: “If she is a good point character, how much better will she become in Golden Armor status?”
The problem with Hsien-Ko is that she is balanced around her Golden Armor hyper instead of it being the other way around.