Thank you a lot DeveilJin01 for making this.
Ive bean asking for ever for a general consensus tier list but am way to lazy to do it. I think this is going to help alot to reach a “definitive” tier list trough the games life.
I agree completely with your list.
Only thing I think should be changed is Strider should be higher.
DJin… I was thinking that in your OP you should make a note that people should just edit their original tier list on the front couple pages or so instead of making a new one every week or month or whatever to keep the clutter to a minimum. People should just make a note at the top of their original list saying “this is the date I made changes” and then make note of the changes below the list.
i didn’t really mean trish vs. tasky in an actual matchup, i meant exactly what nini was saying in terms of how they each do against the cast
but for trish vs. task i think it’s down the middle 5-5 maybe slightly in tasks favor
@acekillah yeah i’m on the 5b bandwagon that thing is really good
Like this tierlist too, except switch Viper and Doom, and everyone from Ryu~~Chris should be “B+”
Gotta keep this short, I’m leaving soon
[LIST]
[]Has pretty good mixups (one of the faster trijumps in the game, float instant overhead).
[]Mobility (fast wave/dash, 8way airdash, float)
[]Good set of normals (some of which are jump cancelable, which boost her mixup game), hitboxes are rather good. c.:l: is +2 on block, s.:s: is only -1 and hits… everything 
[]Hail Storm is a very good assist punish.
[*]Overall team utility. Whirlwind is a little slow to startup but still quite usable, can eat a lot of other FBs and pushes the opponent back. IMO her biggest strength in this dept is Hail Storm: excellent both for THCs (1F start iirc) and as a DHC option.
[/LIST]
I feel her only real weakness is relatively low damage.
I really think she’s a strong character, it’s just that people look at her and compare to Magneto and go “ehh…”, when they’re not necessarily that similar.
I guess this is a good question to ask.
In MVC2 IIRC Strider/Doom was considered effectively a top tier combination of characters. Would you not consider Dorm with a beam and an OTG assist capable of basically being a Strider Doom type where he gets everything he needs as long as you equip him? I don’t think the character’s specifications should deny them from a top spot if that’s the case.
It also depends on how much damage he can get without an OTG assist or would you say OTG assist is necessary to really maximize his damage?
That’s not even considering Dark Dorm which essentially has the ability to stop most of the other anchors from even moving and stopping a 2 or 3 man team from calling assists anymore. Plus great at chipping out that last character if they already burned their XF.
im surprised spencer isnt ranked higher on these lists. He has very high damage, high health, good mobility, amazing hypers, good mixups and doesnt rely on assists but still benefits greatly from them. Also because of the long hitstun on his moves + zipline its possible to convert pretty much any hit into a high damage combo. I dont think zoning is that effective against him either, his wire grapple and bionic arm make it risky to throw anything out, if you get tagged once you’re pretty much dead. The fact that an invincible hyper like bionic arm puts the opponent into such a long juggle state AND causes a hard knockdown is ridiculous.
His assists arent half bad either, his slant shot is by far the best assist for resets imo and at the same time can extend combos in ways that no other assist in the game can.
I feel like a contrarian since this is my first post in the new thread. >.<
I must say on a lot of these I disagree with you, I’ll cover why on each point but can definitely understand where you’re coming from.
1: Guile, O.Sagat, and Dhalsim were predictable at far ranges. That said the things which Viper should be doing which are predictable are done to force people into various circumstances which they’re required to deal with BS. I have not yet met a player who could pressure accordingly to deal with good use of EX seismo, partially because of how it functions on block and whiff. Viper being safe on whiff and massively + on block is silly, especially in a game where one correct opening can easily change the tide of the match. EX seismo automatically converts the match from a situation you didn’t want to be in to a situation they didn’t want to be in which is incredibly scary.
2: Seismic hammer and spamming it are two very different things. The inclusion of the laser made it dramatically more powerful since laser has enough durability to beat every air to ground projectile in the game along with eliminating the vast majority of assists. On Viper on point teams she can use an assist to combo after hammers and I do regularly. Anyone who thinks this is an issue for her needs to play the character with slant shot, vertical arrows, vajra, uni-beam, etc. She can easily continue after max range seismic hammer hits with assists and unassisted she just needs good execution since TK forward heavy burn kicks connect if you do them right off of any seismo. Saying the fault with a move is that players with low execution will get another move is not a terrible blow to the character. It means players need to step up their execution. I have bad execution and get C thunder knuckles but I’ve started EX BKFing them as that if done off of rapid seismo leaves you at frame advantage and mid screen instead of screwed. Seismic hammer at any point can always be cancelled into EX, Viper has the best defense in the game, that’s part of why she’s a problem. Learning how to place seismos intelligently is really hard, but doing so will dramatically ease match ups. As stated inability to use the tool correctly isn’t important to tiering if it’s totally possible to use it correctly within human limitations.
3: I agree that Viper should be on point, but I 100% disagree about not worth saving with a DHC. Maybe I’m just of the Marvel 2 mind set in this way, but if I have a chance to recover 50% of Viper’s life that’s 50% more they have to kill. I agree that her DHCs are bad for neutral, but they’re all pretty exceptional on hit since they have high damage, leave Viper in position to be the most powerful and are a constant threat as instant/fast DHCs from things that can’t hold up to emergency combination’s invincibility. Saving Viper has rarely ever been a bad idea for me unless I wasted X-factor or did an unsafe tag. As for incoming mix up, she has one of the better sets of tools for correctly dealing with incoming mix up in something that destroys all normal class projectiles, a double jump, and an air dash paired with the ability to do high damage off of throws which force mix ups with slight holes to be much more respectful of her. I really can’t disagree more about Viper falling in being very strong and scary.
There are very few teams that I endorse having her in second by default since I like saving characters in general and the best way to do that is a fast and safe DHC which she doesn’t have. However there are quite a few characters which she can be placed second after based on how their tools work, the primary of which being: Vergil (round harvest DT raw tag), Dante (Hysteric DT raw tag), Trish round harvest raw tag, and Firebrand neutral set up unblockable with burn kick raw tag combo. Additionally she has one of the best cross counters for coming in and if you have difficulty bringing her in that’s one place to start.
As for her as anchor I feel it’s match up dependent, K-beast used her as anchor against pretty much any team in Vanilla and he was completely viable with that set up. I wouldn’t anchor her against Trish, Firebrand, Morrigan, Dante (With tons of meter for devil trigger), or Zero. However against most of the game’s other characters she’s an exceptional anchor assuming you have a solid neutral game with her. She’s another character where if she’s in back you can’t blow X-factor early since she can chip you from full life in safe ways against the entire cast. This paired with good air throws and mobility makes her a serious issue as anchor but I wouldn’t recommend it against strong air to ground lame characters.
4: I’m not certain if I agree with you on this or not. I do think that in order to get rid of all of her bad match ups she requires assists, however I feel Viper solo has completely dominant match ups against the vast majority of the cast even when they’re covered by assists. She shouldn’t be worrying about too much stuff being on the screen as she has one of the faster projectiles that covers the most space paired with top 3 durability projectiles in the game and exceptional movement. There is no character in the game currently that can keep Viper from controlling the ground, if you’re saying she has to take to the skies you aren’t using hammer, laser, and her near ground movement correctly. Additionally the flow of Viper pressure is normally Viper’s space control–>assist–>pressure, unblockable, or return to space control. If you’re trying to use your assists to open your dominance you’re not using your tools correctly. There is one exception to this and that’s disruptor assist which is the reason I used it in Vanilla, you don’t need to rely on an assist to stop people from moving, you need to know your space control tools.
I agree on your last statement of her refusing to pass the ball. Her primary issues as I see them are: She doesn’t have a DHC for use in neutral to be safe. Her assists are not neutral game assists so she only helps characters who already have strong offense with them (Firebrand, Dante, Zero and Strider are all pretty BS with burn kick), and that playing her like other characters will get her killed since she relies on an entirely different fundamental structure for her gameplay than just mash on high priority normals until it works.
Just a reminder… starting from this page on please use SPOILERS for tier lists. That way people can read posts and not see lists every other post. I’m not going to get all SRK police about it unless a specific poster gets really out of hand. I would just generally prefer such.
I’ll just have people follow the above rule instead and I’ll link to some of the updates or they can update on their own and tell me to link etc.
HSD’s timer decayed it’s hit stuns to the point there was nothing Haggar can do with it. Haggar could do 9 reps because Haggar’s launcher has a lot of base hitstun frame to decay.
Now that my required Viper corrections are out of the way back to the heart of the topic. I’m unsure about the viability of coming to a consensus on tier lists in the way we’re attempting to do so. Obviously getting a collection of people’s opinions and compounding them is better than nothing but I have an additional suggestion that I feel would be beneficial to the thread as a whole.
We need to talk about match ups, preferably match ups where both characters have the ideal assists for the situation. If I say Zero is stronger than Wesker because lightning xx buster is stupid then someone retorts that a 1 frame command grab on a teleporting character is ridiculously stupid as well we haven’t really made much progress since both things are true and pretty obvious. What would be a better way is figuring out what match ups Zero wins and why, what match ups Wesker wins and why, then comparing how they deal with various things because a 1frame command grab may make Wesker incredibly stupid, but if it’s a non issue in his hard match ups because he either doesn’t get in a situation where it’s often applicable Trish/Firebrand or because the characters have specifically tailored techniques to escape it Ex seismo/bold blocking despite its incredible stupidity in the meta it’s not as important.
I would highly advocate that twice a week or so we have 3 characters and go through their match ups with the entire rest of the cast. This requires going to their specific boards, getting their expert opinions, and then going into discussion when there’s a strong disagreement about a match up IE I’m sure someone will say that Arthur beats Viper since she’s free to zoning or other nonsense like that. and upon discussing it we should all gain a better understanding of why people think various match ups are easy or difficult. Cause analyzing any set of tools in a vacuum they can appear as strong or as weak as something based on what you compare it to in your mind. Without knowing how stupid the other characters in the game are hearing “There’s a character that can gain hyper armor, that she can have as an assist, a moving projectile that reflects other projectiles, and can kill you if she touches you two to three times” would be pretty miraculous in other games, but in here that character is pretty miserable. Also having a match up chart by the end would make adjusting things much easier especially if we keep all of the characters’ match up charts stickied as spoilers in the first few posts or so.
Just my 2 cents after I so rudely interacted with M0-T3MP35T since I have a very strong disagreement with a lot of what he or she posted.
[sarcasm]
Yea Chrisis, you came off as a total dick with your counter to Mo Tempests explination on why he doesnt think Viper is S tier. Will you ever be able to articulate an argument without coming off as a complete asshole? My guess is no… some people were just born to be rude I suppose
[/sarcasm]
If you really want to get deep into matchups you’re going to be here forever, by all means talk about it but there’s so many variables to take into consideration that if you’re going to sit and discuss every possible aspect you’re wasting your time IMO. The simpler and probably quicker way is to just ride the game out for a couple of years until certain teams dominate consistently on a tournament to tournament basis and figure the rest of the cast out on how they fit into that meta game. I know it’s probably not the answer you want, but I think it’s the most realistic one.
I think you are understandably confused. This thread is about discussing tiers/matchups because no one will build those dominating teams without an understanding of how to dominate in this game. This thread helps to understand what dominates and why.
Sitting on the sidelines waiting for the results to appear in a few years will give us … no results since no one did the thinking.
I value accuracy over expediency. ^.^;
ok just so i understand
matchup trish vs. wesker imo 7-3 and wesker can have all the assists he wants
trish vs. xf3 wesker 4-6 maybe i don’t know but i do know the speed changes things
so how do you rate this; is it 7-3 or is it an average of the 2 ?
Still wondering how I’m not in that post-1 list especially considering some of the other names in there (NOT naming names).
Well it depends. I don’t think Trish with her favorite assist for the situation loses to XF3 Wesker, it’s just a harder fight than it was previously. If being in XF3 benefits a character more than having assists that’s a very important thing to keep in mind however as it’s rare that a character with XF3 has better options than the 2 assisted + a DHC variety, but there are definitely those who benefit from it and that helps with figuring out team composition.
This week is Phoenix Wright week.