Iron Fist sucks he’s not phoenix wright tier. But Haggar is better.
Who wins, Justin Wongs Ironfist team or Bums Haggar team?
I feel like C-tier is the unknown tier - character who just have not been studied enough due to a poor quantity of usage, players, and maybe even media. It’s not bottom or even mid rank, it’s just a “mystery at the moment” bracket… or that’s the C tier in my definition.
If anything you can be a hell of a lot surer of the characters in C tier than you can in B tier. B tier is the unknown tier, it’s basically “haven’t got a clue so just gonna shove them all in on tier,” tier. Four tiers and one sub tier isn’t enough for 50 characters, I don’t see what all the fuss is about maxing it out at C, all tiers indicate is that the characters above are better than the characters below. Having a D tier or even an E tier when you have 50 characters doesn’t magically make these bottom tiers absolute garbage and unusable.
well, now you’re getting past the point of a tier list. tier lists in team games are very difficult to do, and really don’t always work as well as intended. for instance: is C.Viper without an anti-air assist better than Strider on point while he isn’t using Vajra as his assist? Neither is the optimal way to play the character. The characters have too many options and synergy based strategies for team concepts to me considered, so they just go with overall potential. Well, if you look at overall potential, its pretty clear that Wong>>>Bum, and theres your answer.
Teams or players? With any other players, I’d say Haggar team. Even with Justin vs. Bum, I can see Bum giving him a run for his money.
She only has one method of approach from above and no teleports. Her only normals with reach are crouching light and j.S which scale her damage really bad. Astral vision is good shit, but it’s not safe to throw out and Finishing Shower is not very good outside of specific situations. Her damage is ass and her combos are harder than average to pull off compared to characters like Wesker. She also has no normal OTG moves/specials which makes getting good damage a chore off hard knockdown(Shadow servant away if you’ve got the space though).
She has redeeming qualities, but she is pretty much a zoner with meh moving options and bad normals. That does’t cut it for high tier in Mahvel. She’d be up there if she had a flight cancel capable OTG spike kick(like her older versions) that you could combo afterwards, a normal ground dash for an alternate approach path and faster speed/OTG qualities on her finishing shower.
You obviously have no idea about Thor if you think he and Tron are alike in any way at all…
You don’t just throw out normals with him willy nilly. If you try to get in, you should do it with Mighty Strike. His air normals are only used in specific circumstance like tri-jumping, box jumping and coming in from above with an ambiguous j.:h:.
[LIST]
[]Thor’s damage is anything but average. Tron can kill anyone for 3 bars? Thor can do it with 1.
[]He’s far more mobile.
[]Has one of the best command grabs (ground and air) in the game and it leads to death on pretty much anyone if you land it.
[]Good resets, although you should just go for the kill if you can help it.
[]Has one of the best tri-jumps in the game and can cross up with it.
[]Can get around zoning much better.
[]Can also fight back against zoners from a distance if they get predictable.
[]Has armored moves.
[]Mighty strike is probably one of the best moves in the game.
[]Mighty Punish is one of the best supers in the game and can lead to tons of BS options selects.
[/LIST]
Hardly anyone knows how to play him that’s all. He’s actually quite viable now, which is more than I can say for Tron. He’s just a lot more technical than people realize. You don’t play him like the other Heavies. He’s like a larger version of Magneto (but obviously not nearly as good).
Frankly all the supposed good Thor players are only scratching the surface with him. He has the potential to be a force.
I’d really love for Thor to be one of the sleeper A-tiers ya know?
Goldilocks got hella better during his transition to ultimate from vanilla.
Thor needs more players.
Well the guy above me said that haggar was better than ironfist. In fact Haggar recently got a BUFF in general opinion because of bums success with Haggar. You can’t deny that. The question was more of a flavor of the month question than anything.
You can’t deny that performance influences peoples opinions in tier lists.
On Chris:
[details=Spoiler]Chris is an interesting character. He is often passed off as nothing more than a subpar zoner in a game where there are zoners better than him and overall zoning just not being very good. This could not be farther from the truth.
While initially it seems like Chris’s moves work towards keepaway, there is an underlying agression underneath all of his game. By that I mean, all of his moves are little ticks in the armor of your opponent, daring them to come and take a swing at you up close. His machine gun and shotgun are not duckable, and force considerable chip even at long distance. His grenades explode upon contact with him and have noticeable AoE, which can throw any opponent off his game. His magnum is extremely high durability, which allows it to plow through most other forms of projectiles in a sort of counter effort. Counter is the word I would use to describe Chris.
He counters your offense in wierd ways, and forces the opponent to come in close, where he has pretty solid options of countering offense still. For example, Chris is blessed with having pretty decent frame data, his s.h being about -2 on block with a large push. Using this, he can cancel that hit on block or hit into an H grenade, which has a bit of startup that is usually covered by the block or hitstun. The mind game then comes in that tagging Chris with any move at this point will make the grenade explode, and pop the opponent high up in the air, which allows Chris to land his extremely damaging ground BnB with the additional 130,000 from the grenade tacked on…that’s a dead character for more than half of the viable cast.
Another way he can force the opponent to move is his hyper combo, Grenade Launcher. There are many characters that have a move that is pretty much safe to throw out from almost full screen that is supposed to force you to just block. Dormammu’s Stalking Flare and Storm’s Hail Storm come to mind here. However, both are plagued with either a lack of speed (Dormammu) or long startup (Storm). This is where Chris takes advantage. While having a bit of startup, it’s nowhere near the 20+ frames of startup that the other two supers have. The first hit also comes out fast, and that’s the key to it. Every grenade has high priority projectile durability, which means hitting another projectile of lower or similar durability cancels that one out. Storm and Dormammu’s are on the same level and have high priority, so Chris’s initial ice shot cancels the other one out. However, whereas this means that Dormammu and Storm are locked in an animation that forces them to stand still, Chris continues on with his or in Storm’s case, is hit out but does not actually take damage, therefore FORCING the opponent to either DHC that either wastes a meter or at worst sends a character off to his death if the DHC is poor, and lastly, leave the character to be killed by Chris’s monstrous damage.
The last type of offense he counters are the long range keepaway/zoning types, which are becoming plentiful in UMvC3. Here, one of Chris’s buffs to his game significantly helps here. The answer to countering here lies in his Prone Shot. Prone shot was not a good move in MvC3; it had 27 frames of startup and the lag between each shot in the prone position was very long, not to mention the almost . Now it was reduced greatly to 10 frames of startup, which means that going into it from even midscreen is not really a hassle anymore. The best part is just how low his profile gets. There are very very few moves that can hit Chris if your opponent is firing projectiles on the horizontal plane, and now, the prone shot has extremely reduced recovery, so he can fire off shots pretty fast, and there is a bit of stutter to them, so they will stuff every move your opponent does if they get desperate and try to mash on specials and non-invincible hypers. While the Prone Position does leave you in a bit of a vulnerable state, there are two ways to get around this. One is the very quick recovery, which is 5 frames, and even faster if you hold up to jump. This allows Chris to visually recognize a threat coming and and jump to either chicken block or use an air throw. The other tactic a lot of people worry about is teleporting, specifically cross up ones. Chris has a unique answer to this that takes advantage of a sort of glitch in the way the game engine works. When Chris is crossed up, he is forced to stand because the game can’t recognize him in the prone position not facing an opponent. When he gets up, for whatever reason, he’s completely invincible until he gets up. So if a Phoenix or Dr. Strange teleports behind you, any move they throw is vulnerable to a throw because their move will go right through Chris.
So what does it all mean? Chris can force you to come near him or do a move that is not advantageous to to you which he can counter and kill you off of. Frustrating with Prone Shot to the point where you are forced to approach, which starts up the grenade mindgames, as well as Chris’s very long range Standing H and Crouching M, which are relatively quick (10 and 8 frames respectively) and have quite a bit of range, particularly s.H. Maybe in the fight to combat his Prone Shot, you take to the skies and maybe airdash your way in. With no way to block as you airdash now, Chris can jump up and land a simple MHS air hit into a full combo on the ground, or air throw, or stand up quickly and throw out a flamethrower, which covers the unique area around his head and is now cancellable, so if there is a misread, a simple cancel to shotgun or landmine can save you. And he can force a character to burn an x-factor or waste a meter DHC’ing if he uses his Grenade Launcher hyper to stop projectile type hypers.
Now all of this would be for naught if Chris didn’t bring the pain…which he does, in spades. Assuming you are playing with his best possible assist (Strider Hiryu), then his typical BnB does 860k, and because the combo builds 1.25 meters (Chris builds incredible meter, due to natural huge meter build and flamethrower, which builds about half a meter if inserted into a combo at all), Chris can use a second meter to make it do 1,024k, which means a dead character for the most part. For a landed magnum, from 3/4 of the screen away, he can do 863k for one bar (That is built int he course of the combo), and 1,017k if an extra bar is burned. Chris’s damage went up due to being able to hyper combo cancel his d+H OTG gunshot into his Sweep Combo hyper, which was also changed so the last 7 hits of it OTG, which tacks on quite a bit more damage. I have yet to test, but the recent flamethrower buff may actually add to these combos meter build and damage capabilities, but this needs more testing.
Overall, I think Chris is a fantastic character mostly due to the way that there are some characters that are very relevant in this metagame (Hawkeye, Nova, Wolverine, Dormammu) that Chris either does very well or beats. However, due to how I feel Strider is very necessary to keep Chris’s defense and damage to their highest capabilities, I feel I can only put him in the B tier, which means that he is good but is reliant on an assist or two to realize his max potential…which is very high ;D[/details]
Justin underestimates his own character I think, it’s likely people just put him bottom tier because he says he’s so. But honestly, Iron Fist is fast, has good safe pokes, has confirmable overhead, above average solo damage; he lacks from a decent low and has a god aweful launcher but be has quite good mixups regardless. Just because Justin says he’s ass and still wins doesn’t mean he’s actually ass.
Iron Fist definitely isn’t awful, but things like good pokes and overheads make you top tier in SF, not in Marvel.
Playing an intricate footsie game while your opponent does an ambiguous teleport crossup setup with an assist is just difficult to compare.
I don’t think Justin or anyone is underestimating Iron Fist…he’s just ass.
One of the first times I’m looking through this thread. I think 95 percent of the characters in this game are extremely viable. That, and I also feel there’s a cluster of high and high mid characters that are really hard to separate in terms of power. I really think after the top few characters (I think Wesker, Spencer, and Zero) most of the rest of the cast falls into a high and high-mid tier list, followed by the low tier which is again a few characters (I think Tron and Hsien-Ko).
It’s very hard to elaborate on a full tier list in this game because the balance is actually pretty good considering the circumstances that allow the game to be what it is.
^That’s why if you look into my tier list, I have a C tier only for characters that are like bunk. Everyone else is crammed into the B and A tiers, with only the super-super dominant characters in S. That seems to be how the game is for the most part.
I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about her hit confirms being bad.
Example: Vergil has a giant fucking sword to continue his combos he can hit you anywhere and has an incredibly good chance to HIT CONFIRM into a combo because of their range. Unless you’re going in with a j.S every time as Tron what are you going to do? j.M is ok for air to air, but hard to start a combo with, j.H knocks the opponent back too far UNLESS you’re close enough to them which no one is going to let you do. Her st.L is like a Rocket Raccoon normal it’s so stubby, st.M is alright, st.H will send people flying too far some times, her launcher is ass with a hit box that I guarantee is smaller than the animation it self (she slams the ground it still whiffs pretty close it seems). Her j.L and cr.L are awful moves to use in a combo because of HSD, her cr.M and cr.H aren’t really going to be used outside of the middle of combos. So what are you left with? j.S and a TK Drill covered by a projectile assist and people say Sentinel is predictable? The drill doesn’t stop anything either so especially good luck with it. You also can’t properly utilize a Clakey D Ender by sacrificing a ground bounce and Tron will pretty much crumble if any of her team mates die moreso than probably any character besides Phoenix.
J. Wong on the SRK podcast after he won a tourney with Fist came out and said that he wasn’t as low as people first perceived but stays around mid tier and also stated Zero is the best.
He is not nearly as bad as people take him for. Projectile/projectile nullifying assist and AA assist and he is good to go. Wong only has the one for approach, and he is dominating people. IF he learned Spencer/Strider and put them on the team, his team would be insane.
this has nothing to do with your post but you’re one of the best so i want your opinion
i’m a hsien ko player
and i honestly feel that hsien vs. taskmaster is in her favor;
i’m terribad in this game but i have pretty good win/lose ratio against him when we both start on point (not including the really bad task players)
if task decided to arrow ko to death he won’t win(hasn’t against me yet) with his assists being projectiles they go back and forth but if she has a projectile assist it’s a losing battle for him.
i’m a huge advocate of tasks normals especially 5b and 9c i think they’re some of the best but her 6h, 5iad c, 5c have been beating tasks pretty consistently.
i think she has better mixups then him; he has high/low, swordmaster. she has high/low (better imo) left/right (not the best but there), command grab
damage i won’t even try to argue that being in her favor it just isn’t. but depending on how much meter she can build and how much damage is dealt while they are having projectile wars she could kill him off of one touch. if i’m not mistaken he can kill her as long as he has one bar stocked.
for assists you have tastu i assume, i don’t really know how it works but i do know it won’t care about the reflected back arrows but does anyone know if the tatsu goes through an air gong.
anyways i know it seems like a stupid comparison to look at an high tier character against a bottom tier character but i really think she fights him well
Performance should have influence on the lists though, its the only thing absolute.
I should say ‘sustained performance’ though…
One of the nice things about marvel is that its always pretty damn clear whats happening, so something like Bum’s haggar can rightly have a huge impact on how people view/play the character.