No argument there. I do agree that Hawk eye and Strider can destroy phoenix in a snap. I recall clockwOrk using Phoenix Against floe’s strider, and the moment Strider at orbs just destroyed dark phoenix in 3 seconds.
I kind of want to save this post, it’s so hilarious that it’s beyond belief. Allow me to summarize what has happened up until this point.
-I mention that people aren’t willing to consider alternate views, bringing up Wright and Chun who I think are underestimated.
-People tell me that I’m wrong and should argue my points.
-I argue my points.
-Rather than people disagreeing, I’m told that I’m flat-out wrong, that my own game is theory fighting, that my opinion is invalid because I haven’t placed at a major, and that my game is based on fighting computers (your own words, sweetcakes).
And then, here’s the fun part, I’m told that I’m the one with the elitist attitude because I think pros could POSSIBLY be wrong (because Vanilla Sentinel was totally best in the game for sure right?) on a character that has been completely underexplored.
Lawdy lawdy.
Strider and Spiral were never multi-tiered. The people who made:
Top tier
Spiral - with Sent
Mid tier
Spiral w/o Sentinel
Were like 3 people out of the 50 people giving a single tier list.
Characters should be judged at their viable potential. The way a character works with a certain assist isn’t an reasonable thing to minus because this is a team game based on chemistry and dynamics.
I don’t particularly care about the rest of the arguments in this thread, but St. Louis is 2 hours away from the middle of Missouri and they have a very active tournament scene with great players. Go a few more hours south and Central Arkansas holds bigger tournaments twice a year as well. Our last tournament had almost 200 people including 50+ for Marvel 3 and 70+ for SF4. And if those are too far away to travel to, then host a tournament yourself. It’s not that hard and it eliminates the excuse of not having tournaments readily available in your area (even though, as I said, St. Louis is only 2 hours away and they have a ton of skilled players).
EDIT: Not being aggressive, just trying to encourage people to go to tournaments.
You do realize this early into the game’s life their still region specific tech and many regions lack players who are strong with specific characters. So some people are saying different things based on that.
Most people near me think Zero is only ok “high but not top”. That’s because we don’t have any solid Zero’s. Doesn’t make it true. However, I agree though Viper isn’t top.
- The biggest problem with you is your views on Phoenix Wright. That is the only thing being nitpicked. And what we are trying to tell you that Wright is not being underestimated but you are Overrating him way too much.
- Because you are wrong
- Your points are bad because if those are Wrights pros then how can you even dare to say Tron and Hsien ko are worse when their positives out weigh the positives you wrote about Wright?
- That’s still disagreeing because you are making such a big deal about these “strengths” of Wright as if you are the only one who has seen these certain “viable” options you have detailed in your posts. And we here are saying that those factors do not make Wright viable at all. We are being nice enough to give you the benefit of the doubt to showing us other wise, so saying “open your own tourney and show this” shows that we are nt being elitists. We are being for real here. On and On you have claimed to have tested this and that with Phoenix Wright, something that not even the Pros have discovered yet so yes show us all on how we can take your posts of any credibility? I mean i can write about Hsien ko too and post about all the positive things i’ve tested with her that proves she is Mid to A tier, how do you think this will go for me?
Sorry dude but you are the one being an elitist because you think your posts are valid and should be given more cred. With out legit material then all these details you are telling us is just over hyped Fanboyism. Don’t take it personally but Phoenix Wright is claimed to be a gimmick character and not meant for Viable game.
-Overrating a character = trying to prove that they’re not the worst in the game and are better than at least two others?
-Amazing job proving that you’re not elitist.
-Okay, I’ll give you a chance to prove your case here: show me a time when Wright was used by a pro and did anything other than mad-grab for evidence then fish for Objections. Because every time I’ve seen a pro play him, that’s exactly what they do…And ask any Wright main, it’s a horrible strategy. I’m fairly sure everyone acknowledges that Turnabout Wright is good, the matter of debate is whether getting him there is viable or not…To which I say that he is, but people play him far too carelessly. Also, for reference, if you made legitimate arguments as to why you feel that H-Ko is decent, I’d at least give you a shot and I certainly wouldn’t claim that your opinion isn’t valid/you’ve only tested this on computers/you’re just theory fighting.
Asking to be acknowledged as something more than theory fighting isn’t elitism. Elitism is ignoring a differing opinion from someone just because they don’t have the same level of popularity as other posters. It’s absurd that people overreact so badly just because someone brings an alternative view to the table.
You’re wrong about what Tron can do, her damage varies by meter and what started the combo but even at the low end it’s ok damage and it’s ok because she can combo off everything and it leads to a reset or if you have meter a kill, in vanilla she could one touch you off everything thanks to the DHC glitch but now that that’s gone you have to hit twice or spend meter, her airdash is good, if you think it’s horrible you are doing something wrong, attacking out of it is fast and because of her good air hitboxes hard to anti air when backed by a proper assist, if you’re using it to close space you should be whiffing an attack to fall faster, now that the patch made it so you can block on the way down it isn’t as unsafe so you can dash in behind an assist and not get hit by an S for free, when you force a block which is pretty easy to do you are at frame advantage from the air, and your pressure is amazing when done with the right assists or generally safe when you use boulder at the end. She doesn’t zone so I guess she’s outzoned by almost everyone but she doesn’t get zoned out, in fact it’s generally easy to get in except against Zero, Dormammu, Dante, and Ghost Rider.
Arthur on point is terrible he’s like Phoenix Wright but his zoning game is much better than Wrights and he has a great assist, basically Taskmaster or Hawkeye arrows, in X-Factor 3 he becomes a great character with a shockingly amazing high low game thanks to J.S… But he’s also a bad character relative to everyone else.
Slip-up is 25 frames start up not in turnabout, one of the games best overheads? Get the fuck outta here with that shit, he can only combo off of it if properly he didn’t call Maya to shield himself recently as well. The items you listed and there uses just suck outside a vacuum, all his zoning gets beat by actual zoners or just ignored by rushdown characters, it might give Hulk some trouble but any real character doesn’t care about it at all. Also he can only have three items at any time, he has to earn them, and they’re randomized. Missles has such a small hitbox and it takes so long actually get to you that by the time it has you can just move out of the way or have hit Phoenix or something else. It really isn’t good I don’t know what game you’re playing where it is. As a combo extender his assist is ok but that same roll is filled by actual characters and most often better (the same can be said of Trons assists to be fair). The Maya super arguement is so weak I don’t even care to address it, it should be obvious as to why that’s a terrible arguement. Order in the court is an ok ender but his damage outside turnabout still isn’t good and and good luck getting a hit.
As for me mentioning tournament results I actually try not to and I believe I’ve only done so once when I was directly asked if I was that person and now. The only reason I would bring it up is to support my knowledge about Tron. I’ve almost certainly played more matches with her on point than anyone else (especially after Claky D dropped her from his point team long ago) and I’ve played against very good players. As such realistically my arguments specifically about Tron are probably at least slightly more valuable or at the least more informed than most others who did not play Tron as much. I would trust, for example, Chrisis’s arguments about Firebrand far more than my own or someone else who hasn’t played or played against good Firebrands. When the game came out I tried to play Phoenix Wright but he gets destroyed so bad by anyone who knows how to play at a decent level it just isn’t even close every match against a good character feels at least 2-8 and that’s not even against the best characters which feels 0-10. Next time St. Louis has a big tourney you should go and play against their best players to see how hard trying to play Wright at a high level is or you can try to plan a trip to UFGT8, Chicago isn’t that far and if you go you can also MM me (or just play casuals) and make me change my mind about Wright.
I should go up to ST Louis to play you guys some time.
It actually isn’t that far, and I need to get my ass beat to level up.
- With this PW issue, yes. You are over rating him way too much.
- Here we go again. Contradicting you and telling you the facts is being an elitist to you? Because you, regardless of being contradicted by everybody, are the only one right and we don’t anything?
- Thats the only thing that can be attempted in majors. That is how limited his options are in real matches. Get over yourself, none of the strats you talk about are the best gameplay for Wright in actual competition. Trying to go for overheads with Wright against a Strider, Wolverine, Zero, Wesker, Captain or any character is to much of a high risk because Wright has one of the poorest normals, the worst mix ups games, and too much frames in his attacks. As a zoner and a keepaway, he is still inferior to everyone in the cast.
- Hsien ko has been played in majors. Regardless of her tier list, she is still used as a main to some players who participate. So obviously her pros and capabilities have a basis.
What the hell? You are not asking to be acknowledged you are forcing down your arguments that only you say it’s legit. Then you just point fingers around calling all of us elitists and making it sound as if you know better than all the pros that have Studied and tried to work with Wright in real comp. You are just butt sore about being told by everyone to be straight up wrong.
r-read Karenata’s post btw.
To nearly everyone who is still arguing about the Phoenix Wright is or is not a terrible character debate I have something to say to you.
[media=youtube]dEtm_Q2LK9g[/media]
Rather than discussing the pros and cons of the character himself all I am seeing is people arguing about the attitude/behavior of other posters and how these other posters view them, how posters present their ideas and people being insulted regarding others beliefs.
I see insults flying around about other people and their level of skill at the game, even though they haven’t actually seen them play before and thus have no way of actually telling.
I see people getting sidetracked, going off on wild tangents that are irrelevant to the main idea that we are supposed to be discussing in the first place, which is…
How strong is Phoenix Wright as a character in this game.
That is the question, there are three major points which should be discussed in answering it, which once looked at will help to answer this question. These are…
1. What are the Pros and Cons that Phoenix Wright has as an individual character?
2. What are the Pros and Cons that Phoenix Wright has as part of a team?
3. What style of team does Phoenix Wright work most effectively with?
This is what people should be focussed on discussing, rather than tossing out insults at eachother and going on about other factors which have very little significance to the question that you are trying to answer.
Sorry about having to go on a rant there and I apologize if i have offended anyone in the process, I just feel that we need to stop with the endless fighting and look back to the main point that we are supposed to be discussing.
I’m not going to bother addressing the first and last paragraphs since respectively, Tron discussion is an entirely different issue, and the last goes back to the “Place in a tournament to make your opinion valid”.
As for the second:
-Arthur still isn’t good, but TM Wright easily outzones him by basically having the same gimmick of homing projectiles with mad chip, but faster and more accurate. But the point is that solo (as in base forms, no XF), Wright’s mixups are better and aren’t the worst in the game.
-Slip-up is fast and combined with Maya M or H, you can have a situation in which it’s extremely hard to block. Also, I didn’t know we were playing a game without OTG assists, because if we’re assuming assist-less, then there are a helluva lot of characters who need to be re-evaluated here.
-Um…No? Have you ever even used the other items? Or seen them used? Cell Phone is far and away the best but the others are amazing and cover multiple angles in addition to being fast and doing great damage and chip. What part of them isn’t good outside of maybe Watch/Folder? You can’t just argue by saying “He sucks”, that’s really not valid.
-Missile isn’t great but it’s passable as a low-hitter. Press the Witness is average enough. Break the Witness still does mad chip and gives a wallbounce which is great for any assist. Paperwork (both versions) has great durability and is good for mixups and defensively. The point is that Wright’s assists are solid-to-great, certainly not below average.
-You can’t say “I’m not going to address this argument because it sucks” and expect to have any legitimacy. What part of the Maya super isn’t amazing? It beats Bionic Arm outright and can’t be interrupted by anything short of a cinematic super. It keeps the opponent in blockstun for ages allowing safe tags or evidence gathering. It does good damage. Sorry, but I can’t see how that’s a bad super at all.
I never said people write Strider/Doom, Spiral/Sentinel in their tiering. The point I’m making here is that multi tiering does exist, even if we don’t write it down on paper. Spiral and Strider are top because they have near inescapable chip paterns, these paterns require key assists to even work, without those assists the chip patterns don’t exist and their relevance in the meta is questionable. Some specific conditions make characters better, far better than they actually are, more so than simply adding an assist, to the point that it entirely changes how the character is played.
Like I said before, if an assist induces something game changing, like for example one single assist making it piss easy for PW to get in to TM, we have to assume TM is the norm and can’t discount him just because IM or CM suck and it’s not likely for him to access TM in any other circumstance. What’s more important is a characters relevance in the meta based on a team, it doesn’t matter what team that is or how many variations of that team there are, if they are relevant in the meta on point they are not bottom tier. Whether that will happen with PW or not is not my point here, what’s my point is how multi tiering is something not to be discounted in certain circumstances because it makes a flawed tier list that simply does not make sense and implies individuality over something which ought to be based on team principles.
Dude, this has nothing to do with popularity. This Mo-Tempest dude rarely posted(i actually never seen him post before) but he made some intelligent posts about Viper and why he felt she’s not S tier(which I actually kinda ended up agreeing with) without getting heated up when people made counter arguments which he responded to. No one was like “lolwhothefuckisthisnoob, get him outta here”. In the end, he got his point across without being “popular(lol is this some teen highschool drama or what)”.
As for my opinion, Wright and Tron are in the same tier. The irrelevant tier. Why do I feel like that? Because for wright, the amount of work required to make him playable requires sacrificing too much, and Tron because she just sucks. Hsien Ko has gold assist which is annoying but isn’t that much higher.
In the end, we could all be wrong and Wright could be A or S tier. Many people didn’t believe chrisis when he said Viper was the best character in the game at first . Many people didn’t believe me at first either when I was saying Zero and Dante were the best in Vanilla. You just gotta brush it off and try to prove what you’re saying. Getting mad and calling names on the forums isn’t gonna convince anyone to see things your way.
@demon dash. I’m not contradicting you, i do catch your drift now but there is a good reason why Multi-tiering should be in this. We should just look at characters from an over all. that’s all…
*PW fans…
It’s just PW is a character that was purposely designed around winning slowly in a game where you still have to win fast. There’s more characters that can slow down the pace of the match now that the game is more zoning oriented but, especially with no real tournament sightings (you have to look hard to see PW in a tournament…period) isn’t helping things.
I don’t think many people saw Viper to be low tier during the Vanillas early days and regardless the reason why there were people who were very against Wright being voted to be in this game is because they predicted him to be this bad (or a joke tier). I think Wright can have some days offline because the level of comp and occasional lag situations exist. But offline, legit-level play… nah.
If such a thing were to happen, we need to move PW up the tiers, not tier him twice.
Calling names? The only names I’ve thrown out are calling out trolls: Cisco is a known troll and the other guy accused me of spreading misinformation which was blatantly wrong. I’m not even mad that people disagree with me, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I’m just frustrated that I try to bring an alternative view to the table and it very quickly degenerates from legit discussion, to outright insulting my game. I’ve tried to address anyone who has given legitimate arguments as to why they feel that Wright is lower tiered, but so much of this discussion has been related to me. I’m not part of the equation other than offering another view on the character and saying that I feel like I have a new strategy to bring to the table that I feel is better than what I’ve seen. I’m not asking to be agreed with, I’m asking for a civil discussion. And honestly, I feel like the fact that the reaction to one person offering up another view has been so bad really reflects poorly on this thread: a good tier discussion should be open to ideas and definitely shouldn’t devolve into calling out individuals on their game. If people aren’t even willing to consider a character, then discussions like these aren’t going to move forward and the game won’t progress. Anyone should be considered, even if their view is unpopular.
Anyway, it’s late and I think I’m done arguing for the night. I’m sorry if I offended anyone or was too aggressive, but at the same time, I’m standing by my opinions and I can only hope that this thread will collectively become more open-minded at some point.
Well…that’s over.