Had you actually read the post, I explicitly said that these were old arguments.
And wow, it’s pretty pathetic that your form of argumentation is to incorrectly summarize points and then say “OH THAT’S DOESN’T WORK.” It’s like you learned how to argue from Cisco.
LMAO at phoenix wright being the hardest character to use. Thats only because he is so ineffective. I can’t believe you just said that.
As an Iron Man player (admittedly a very mediocre one who just picked the game up a month or so ago and is still learning), I figure I’ll take a stab at this. The most clear-cut distinction to me is Iron Man vs Hsien-Ko. I certainly don’t feel they belong in the same tier. Assuming that the 40 minute Iron Man vid on the front page isn’t enough alone, I’ll compare his characteristics vs HK specifically:
Normals: The biggest advantage IM has in this department is c.M. It has a lot of range and only 7 frames of startup, whereas Hsien-Ko’s only low attack that hits beyond throw range is her c.H which is garbage by comparison. 12 frame startup (nearly twice as much as IM c.M) and even after it becomes active, it takes a few more frames after that to reach max distance whereas IM c.M hits pretty much instantly. IM can confirm any c.M into the Krispy Kreme combo for ~700k as well, so this is pretty huge.
I think IM’s air normals also stomp on HK’s before even considering that IM has, y’know, actual air mobility options to help his air game. His j.H comes out faster than HK’s, has a silly hitbox, and can even be aimed up or down as necessary. The hitbox on his j.S is also enormous and it can cross up. I’m obviously not familiar with HK’s hitboxes but I find it hard to believe that she has anything on IM j.H.
Specials: Unibeam >>> Anki Hou of course. As far as other space control options go Hsien-Ko only has the gong, which is pretty good, but has some critical flaws. First off it doesn’t reflect beams, which sucks since rushdown chars like Wolverine are so often paired with them. The second issue is that people can just reaction super it which makes it a poor zoning option against alot of chars, whereas trying to super on reaction to Unibeam L usually results in the super getting stuffed since Unibeam goes fullscreen instantly. Finally, it’s just worse because it’s not instant. It limits the opponent’s movement options, but still leaves them free to move and avoid it; an opponent can still move around and take action while Hsien-Ko is performing the move, so it effectively places her at frame disadvantage in exchange for the space control it provides. Unibeam both controls horizontal space and actually places the opponent in hit/block stun to place IM at frame advantage. Unibeam can also stuff assist calls which the gong will never do.
Then IM has other useful options on top of just Unibeam. He even has his own slow-moving horizontal space control tool in the form of his c.H; Repulsor Blast is a better anti-air than anything Hsien-Ko has and actually allows IM to control space behind him, allowing him the potential to blow up things like teleports; and Smart Bombs let him control space below him while airborne, which HK can’t do at all.
Hypers: Hsien-Ko’s hypers are garbage outside of combos. The blades are far too slow to accomplish anything and the balls have no range and no invincibility (so they aren’t even good as a reversal). Proton Cannon has the potential to punish mistakes or just inflict alot of chip from fullscreen, most notably it can easily blow up predictable assist calls, and you can try and hit opponents with the cannon itself (which comes out in 3 frames after the input IIRC) as a hail mary reversal. Iron Avenger comes out fast with a ton of invincibility and can blow through stuff from half to 3/4 screen, giving IM a true reversal and a great move to use with XFC.
Mobility: lol
Mixups: This one should be pretty obvious too. IM has plenty of up/down mixups with ADD shenanigans, his problem is just getting in to do them. Hsien-Ko has trouble getting in and then doesn’t even have mixups to do once she’s in there. Once again her options for hitting opponents low are pretty trashy and I don’t recall her having a fast overhead.
Damage: Iron Man is actually not too shabby in the damage department as I recall, the problem with him isn’t that he doesn’t do damage but rather that his combos are too hard for most folks to bother with. I don’t imagine that would matter in a theoretical situation where characters are played to the height of their potential, though, as tier lists generally assume. I don’t know anything about HK’s combos, but looking through what’s listed in her combo topic, I don’t see anything that breaks 500K without using meter or an assist, so it should be pretty clear that Iron Man wins. It’s also worth noting that Iron Man can combo off some of his throws, whereas all HK can get is a hyper IIRC.
Assists: This is the only area where I feel Iron Man doesn’t clearly win, instead they’re just tied. Golden swing is godlike but requires you to spend a bar and, more importantly, create a situation where you can activate it and then get Hsien-Ko back out without getting punished. Unibeam isn’t as good as golden swing of doom but it doesn’t have the strings attached and easily beats anything normal Hsien-Ko has.
So yeah. Move Iron Man up or make a D tier (or C-, or something) for Hsien-Ko plox.
And then you insult everyone at the end implying those who claim he is low tier only play derpy characters.
And even in your own post you mention the luck factor WHICH is one of the reasons why several people rank him low. He depends on luck to achieve his role as well as XF3.
What about opening people up? He only has one mixup outside of airthrow and his range isn’t as big as other characters who have an OS airthrow as well and better air normals.
And then he only has a low assist which other characters have better low assists that have more uses as well.
This is some severely big issues with his gameplan.
The funny thing about gamefaqs is that when ever a poster posts something negative about Wright they immediately think that I am using a different S/N or that poster is trolling. It’s like they believe that “Wright is the lowest tier” is an argument only believed by me.
Your points on PW are all wrong, Dotsdfe. The fact that you even listed Ironfist as part of the bottom 5 while leaving Wright absent from the list shows enough. Keep scapegoating me on the Wright issue please. :lol:
edit: BTW: that post of yours that you copy+pasted was responded to with “GTFO with that theory fighting shit”.
Skimmed through this thread a bit…
Friends don’t let friends make Mahvel tier lists without a designated S tier. That shit is crazy. Also, I was surprised to see no D tier from the start. No way Iron Man or Iron Fist belong in the same tier as Shit-Ko. I mean… they are made of fucking Iron you guys.
Iron Fist
-intuitive jump cancel combos
-rekkas for OTG or even wall bounce I believe
-Great DHC/THC synergy
-Damage out the ass, can build extra meter and has good hurtboxes
-Fastest wavedash alongside X-23
-One super has great left right coverage(dragon) against teleports, the other super has tons of invul frames/gives you a free wall bounce into another hyper or DHC and his level 3 has a gigantic hurtbox that makes it hard to drop. Level one supers fuck up assists hardcore
-He hits like a grown man
Iron Man
-Has normal specials that cover tons of horizontal space
-Can OTG on his own
-Has flight mode and tri dashes even if they aren’t that fast
-Level 3 has invul frames out the ass
-Super has tons of horizontal coverage and is great for DHC/THC purposes/blowing up assists
-Has his flight cancels even though they are not very intuitive
-His assists are solid
-His air to ground normals cover decent space
They’ve got their problems, but they definitely rank mid tier. A competent player has the options to make things happen with both these characters. Iron Man needs to lay off the booze though because it is nerfing him real bad.
Also, Gene. Gene’s trenchcoat is legit and he is not a dick like Wesker.
Yes, chiplike situations can be avoided with X factor, but Firebrand can still go for an ublockable, dormammu can stack at least two big fireballs and teleport making it deadly and keeping himself safe.
However, let’s imagine none of this happens and Viper just blows X factor and blocks perfectly (assuming Firebrand can’t set an unblockable for whatever reason), what will Viper do against those characters when X-factor ends? Then you’ll start to realize that my tier list isn’t as wrong as you thought when they have to face in 1v1 combat where Viper isn’t in a “S” position anymore.
dotsdfe would you mind going into a little more detail about point #2 on your list. I think that would help us out a lot because most of us are only use to playing PW who basically just have the hurry the hell up and collect evidence gameplan. Like could you give some specific examples of what you would do to alternate your gameplan and what not.
Well 1v1 isn’t the name of this game. Of course Firebrand is a bad match for Viper. He can beat 3/4th of the cast 1v1. She actually can fight Dormmamu rather easily. She can control his slow ground zoning specials with seismo and laser. Her approach is a little overwhelming for him with meter also, with EX Seismo or Thunder Knuckle if he does a slow start up move. So, Firebrand vs Viper = Firebrand. Dormammu vs Viper = Viper.
Certainly. Well first of all, it’s mostly dependent on who I’m fighting. Against zoners, the standard Maya Shield -> Evidence gather tactic usually works. However, against rushdown characters (or in the event of zoners trying to pressure you), I shift to a defensive style of play and look for punishes or opportunities for throws before looking for evidence. If things really look bad and my Wright is heavily outmatched, I don’t hesitate to look for a chance to switch, then DHC back into Wright later on to get more evidence. Against weaker opponents (Hsien-Ko, Tron, Haggar, etc), I’ll actually play some rushdown with IM Wright because Maya M or Maya H can make crazy pressure tools that help keep Wright safe. Finally, if I know I can outzone someone for sure, I won’t hesitate to switch to Court Mode before 3 pieces of evidence and use paper + evidence to zone opponents out. It’s really just a matter of keeping in mind both opponents and playstyles instead of just going for evidence at all costs.
Sounds like Pheonix Wright Sux.
What you’re arguing is d somewhat true. He isn’t completely useless or horrible. He can do those things pretty well, but how many characters can do that better than him? A lot, if not most, of the characters. See, these tiers are for competition, not to deter you from playing who you want to play. Not that you can’t compete with Wright, but as we evaluate the characters of this game we have to take into account that you are putting yourself at a more disadvantageous position by picking him over another character.
Make sense?
As far as Haggar goes can’t I just point you in the general direction of Bum’s stream and call it a day?
On the topic of Dormammus stalking flares… I literally have no idea why people try and run away from them when they have decent life or are in x factor to negate the chip. You are basically forfeiting your chance to just pushblock it until its gone… to give Dormammu a chance and teleport and turn it into a legit mixup now (so now instead of blocking it for free you are gonna actually get hit by it). Giving that up for what exactly now? The smallest of chance in hopes you will hit him first so the ball will disapear? This shit happens like once every 1000 Dorm matches.
Unless you cant afford to take the chip (low life on last character or whatever), or you have some sort of tracking teleport to get directly behind or in front of him (even then the risk doesnt outweigh the reward), just pushblock that shit until it gone.
Everytime I watch a stream or play against someone who runs away from the flare for no reason I go into facepalm mode.
This is what he has been arguing pretty much is that PW isnt useless. I can understand the frustration as people are trying to make him look like he is trying to convince PW for high tier in which clearly he isnt arguing at all. Simply he is just saying he isnt bottom, but that does not mean he is stating PW is the second coming of MvC3.
Um…
How do you accurately portray all the variations of teams possible in relation to one another?
I mean; saying you have to “consider the team” is one thing…
but how do you logically go about doing it?
My earlier post about the 19600 Combinations was admittedly meant in a joking manner…
but that IS how many variations there are.
There are ways to simplify this of course:
We could give each character the same assists,
Or have a pool of assists that are all considered equals…
But that would require us to, again, look at them as individuals.
I honestly don’t know the best way to go about this…
I thought individualized evaluations would be fine,
but people seem to think that that is wrong somehow.
I am no expert in evaluations,
but I do know math and logic to a degree…
not that those philosophical concepts mean anything here.
Haggar gets payed for the shit he has to go through. Near 100% chance of death upon being touched by his massive hands, with relative ease too. More than I can say for other characters people think are bad.
I don’t even remotely expect people to agree with me that he’s middle-of-the-road. What I’m trying to argue is that he’s not useless and he’s nowhere near as bad as Hsien-Ko/Tron (neither of whom are viable). Everyone I see, even pros, play him wrong and think his gameplan is “Grab evidence like mad, and if you somehow live, spam Objection and hope it hits” when he’s a lot more complex than that…And when that doesn’t work, they completely write him off. It really really bothers me to see him lumped down with H-Ko/Tron and in some cases, put into his own tier at the very bottom when he’s nowhere near that bad.
Call dooms missiles, super jump, hope DORM gets hit is pretty legit. Most dorm players don’t even pay attention.
None of that is effective against regular competition. His zoning ability is piss poor, Hsien ko is so ahead at her zoning game and she has a better at close combat. I’m sorry, but this is one of the biggest theory writings i’ve ever read it’s like you barely took in concern that most of the characters (including the weaker characters you’ve listed) can crap all over your said strategies with less effort.
Because we know what types of assist or what types of characters work will with who.
Zero works will with a multi-hitting assist that holds the opponent in place for Sentsuizan enders. Several assist fill that criteria, but Jam Session also covers vertical space, which Zero cannot cover without using H Raikousen.
See my logic? You are being far to literal with this. If you play this game for longer than 4 weeks, you’ll know the characters pretty well and easily identify their assist and how they function on a basic level. Then you can start to piece together basic synergy like Wesker + Beam = good. The long you play, the more in depth you’ll see things like Spencer + Dr. Doom good. Those are just rudimentary examples. Get it?