But but Seismos solve everything![/According to this and the previous thread]
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
I actually disagree, on the days where Iām playing well seismoās hit box is definitely more than enough, it covers a significant amount more space than it should, itās just the way that it works is harder to get used to. Its hit box is practically a mirrored Dante stand B from Vanilla placed at one of 3 locations on the screen. As for those 3 specific locations, as a Viper player you know full well that thereās a massive level of overlap between the spaces which is why when youāre rapid firing 7 seismos to test full push back the hits other than the center hit for a seismo overlap with the one adjacent to it. Thatās why you can do L, L, L, M, M, or L, L, M, M, M and still have both be block strings. My goal in general is more to win then to take an immediate hit. Iām happy to churn out 80 seismos that donāt connect into any specific damage if it prevents them from exercising their game plan, itās good on chip, okay on unconfirmed hit and great on confirmed hit which come much more often when playing an actual team to optimize Viper such as Vajra assist, akin to playing Sentinel commando or Sent/Cyke as opposed to just Sentinel in Marvel 2.
For respecting seismos, if youāre respecting everything they can do you arenāt doing much of anything. Good players arenāt getting controlled by seismos? This is news to me, last time I checked Noel Brown, Flocker, and F-Champ were all excellent players.
There are 2 holes in seismic hammer, very max distance of the screen and super jump height, and I acknowledge them plenty. The thing is that paired with her other tools and ideal assist these can easily be shoehorned into putting your opponent right back where you want them to be. If Viper had seismic hammer but Arthurās movement the holes would be a problem, however she can move forward and backward quickly enough to make them a non issue.
Laser is not ass. I actually thought it was when I first tried it at the EVO build of the game too, and even after I tried it in training mode. Itās very un-intuitive (My barely educated ass is incredibly aggravated that Chrome doesnāt consider unintuitive a word. >.<) to use correctly but itās very strong especially in the ranged game. It has a lot of oddities in how it functions that are incredibly important to how it can be utilized. It really helped in all of her bad matches since even once the laser disappears from the screen its durability is still there so it will make buster and other similar things vanish even with no red left visibly. Test this tool more before saying itās telegraphed and situational, itās very quirky, but itās far from bad. I couldnāt find proper uses for it until I labbed it for awhile, but now itās an important part of my game plan specifically in certain match ups.
As far as being male/female why would that even be a stab? I have no clue what gender people are online unless Iāve seen them somewhere or have something to confirm based off of, the only other tempest I know online is a female and sheās awesome. I donāt get why people consider it insulting when Iām just using an ambiguous term for lack of a specific descriptor. Itās not like either of us have in our signatures of sub-avatar script a large disclaimer āIām a Man! Punches a robotā
Youāre asking me to pay attention and I have. I do enjoy discussing things like this regardless of how much I disagree with you. This is far more constructive for the thread than people just saying āYouāre right Chrisis!ā or āViperās normals are bad therefore sheās ass!ā You have legitimate reasoning behind your opinions on this, I just happen to disagree on quite a few of the things youāre positing such as seismos not controlling an opponentās space well.
Even though Iām not terribly informed on who you are, that doesnāt mean Iām treating you any differently. Iām not surprised you did better than me at SCR, Iām terribly unhappy with my performance there as is documented in the previous thread. We drove from NorCal that Friday at midnight and I was trying to play Marvel with no sleep since insomnia had screwed me over the previous night. There are a lot of great people who did better or worse than me at SCR: RuiN and Shady_K both got taken out dramatically earlier than expected. I actually donāt hold the āIn specific tournament A I outplaced youā to be the best form of gauging skill level. At Devestation I took top 8, that doesnāt mean Iām better than all the people who werenāt top 8, just that the brackets worked in my favor. I had 3 hard matches in my pool as opposed to 5 or 7 in some of the others. If someone else there could say something like "I beat Yipes, Chris G, Fanatiq, MarlinPie and PR Balrog in a tournament but then ended up losing earlier than myself if I in contrast ran into 5 Joe schmoes and then one really good player that doesnāt mean anything. I would love to play with you at some point if youāre in the area at any point.
As for knowing what youāre talking about, people know different things about what theyāre talking about. I feel that a lot of the knowledge you have is good, perhaps you have additional knowledge that leads you to this conclusion that I lack, or perhaps I have some myself. I disagree that there are 5 characters who are currently better than her, thus my statement that sheās currently the best unless new information becomes available that changes that.
So far in my conversing with you the primary opinions of mine that have changed based on additional thought were:
1.) Reclassifying what happens with long range seismo into damage as more of an option select for on block/on hit strings that happen to lead into combos on hit while being safe on block since your confirm is actually happening later in the same pressure string that can be used regardless. Itās true you arenāt confirming off the seismo itself, youāre confirming off of the options that come after it for hit/block and only checking for whiff/not whiff beforehand. Youāre totally accurate in saying that hit confirming off of seismo isnāt reasonable, however hitconfirming off of a safe string that starts with seismo is, akin to not hit confirming off a single stand jab for some other character, but having a hit confirm string that starts with stand jab still makes it a viable thing to consider when discussing hitconfirms.
2.) Actually diagnosing Burst Time as a better DHC air hit confirm since itās easy and more thoroughly understanding where and why I do and should use Emergency Combination DHC with additional thought as to what match ups it helps various Viper partners with.
3.) Iām more aware that trying to use a neutral term like male/female in an attempt to not offend someone by avoiding the assumption that everyone online is male (Which has insulted some of the people Iāve chatted with before) is just as good at accidentally insulting them. >.<
*I hope what Iāve written addresses some of what youāve said and you take into consideration.
Her air game isnāt that good since most of her air normals suck and her specials are mostly ground based.
Hush you. Iām sorry but weāre going to have to ask you to take your logic and get the hell out of this thread.
I wrote a lot about why Tron is playable and not bottom 3 like everyone thinks just bottom 15 but I donāt think anyone read it, it was in response to Honzogonzo and is in the last thread if anyone cares to search for it. The only character who is unplayable on a team is Phoenix Wright, he is so much worse than everyone else at this point that to even have him in the same tier as others is straight retarded. Everyone else in bottom of bottom tier is around the same level the next worst characters are probably She-Hulk and Shuma. Hsien Ko is the hardest character to tier because her assist when gold is one of the best in the game, but otherwise sheās Pheonix Wright level. Sheās useful on teams though unlike Wright because even though youāve lost 90% or more when she comes out her assist is amazing now that other assists donāt fill that role.
Except Viper can also jump and can kill anyone off an air throw and a random hair hit.
Viper isnāt good in the air and many characters can run from her easily?
Why? because if she has lvl 3 X factor, then she doesnāt have assists and Viper is for ground dominance.
Yeah Iām learning chunli now, and Iām getting exposed left and right because I always like to mash out my combos, but that comes out as Lightning Legs as chun :(. She has some nice stuff like being able to get a full combo out of her srk.
Thatās still not enough options. Alot of characters in this game can do that. Sheās a decent anchor at best. Not among the best anchors though.
She can pull anyone down from the sky with a throw or a random air hit-burn kick, relaunch death.
As a fun little experiment:
Top 8 major tier list
[details=Spoiler]SSS Wesker
SS Wolverine
S Magneto
A+ Akuma, Dormammu, Spencer, Frank West, Iron Fist
A Ryu, Taskmaster, Hawkeye,
B+ Firebrand, Doom
B Sentinel, Storm, Skrull
C+ Nova, Iron Man, Dante, Trish
C Chun Li, Vergil, Strider, Amaterasu
C- Felicia, Phoenix, Nemesis
F Arthur, C. Viper, Captain America, Chris Redfield, Deadpool, Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Haggar, Hsien Ko, Hulk, Jill Valentine, M.O.D.O.K., Morrigan, Phoenix Wright, Rocket Raccoon, She-Hulk, Shuma-Gorath, Spider-Man, Thor, Tron Bonne, Viewtiful Joe, X-23, Zero[/details]
details
[details=Spoiler]-Letter grades denote significant gap in value/representation, +/- grades represent relatively minor, but still notable gaps.
-All characters within a specific bracket are considered extremely close to each other.
-All tiers except F tier (which is alphabetical) are in order of strength
[/details]
logic
[details=Spoiler]-Weighted system based on overall placement in the top 8 of the three majors weāve had so far( winning valued significant higher than second place, which is valued significant higher than third place. Third through 8th decrease linearly in value, with a character having no value if they didnāt make top 8 ). I know Apex was relatively small, but it was an Evo qualifier, so I do think itās notable enough to cover for now.
Iāll probably make a second one that includes large scale weeklies too when I have more free time.[/details]
Because they do not dominate differently with in the top 10. Each of the top 10 contribute an equal amount of importance and dominance to the team in their own way. Iāve seen Viper and Zero do well in tourneys but count the number of teams with them in it that placed high with in all the recent broadcast majors? The number/ratio isnāt different from the characters popularized with in the 10. Infact the ratio of usage and tourney success isnāt good eough in quantity to warrant them as the only S tiers. This is why, IMO i do see 10 characters that have the right to be S tier.
Zero, Wesker, Wolverine, Doom, Strider, Phoenix, Viper, Dorm, Magneto, and itās a debate with Dante, vergil or spencer (IMO at least).
Did you even watch the Frosty Faustings stream people linked you to? First real Zero players Iāve seen.
The sooner people realize this, the better.
Super jump-airthrow-dead
superjump-burning kick-dead
random j. L-air series-burn kick-dead
No options at all.
You can super jump and run from all XF3 anchors. How does that work for most people ? o.O
How isnt that enough options? So in your opinion who are the best anchors and why and what options do they have?
The bottom tier makes me go huh? None of those belong in the same tier as Wright and Hsien Ko as well outside of her having the best assist armored up.
I barely am able to put Tron in the bottom three in my list. Haggar on point with assists as Bum shows is a massive rushdown beast as is IF.
We may need to expand it to +/- or to SABCDF, D is Ko and F is Wright. Yes Wright belongs in his own tier list.
The problem with setting something up like the top 10 characters are S tier is that it would become very innacurate as everyone in that tier wouldnt be equal or close to equal. I would love for this game to have 10 S tier characters, hell I would love 20ā¦ but you cant force these things. You need to naturally figure out who is better than others and not set up fixed things like 10 in S 10 in A 10 in B etc.
If you personally believe that the top 10 are all S tier worthy and very close to each other in their rank then I respect that. But when you set things up like 10 or 8 or 6 have to be S then you are sort of setting yourself up for inaccuracy
Loligagger: They were both good. Itās expected though since neither Zero players won the tournament. Still, Zero is good and all just not the best there is.
El_Maiz: Enough options to be decent but not the best anchor I said.
Yeah, youāre hopeless.