Deadpool’s overhead is predictable and beaten by chicken blocking. Quick Work is also easy to work around due to the fact that it’s punishable by even someone like Thor. His zoning on the other hand… son of a *****.
Cap has a double jump, a projectile that pisses off even the best of players, conversions from any spare hit, and a stupid ass cartwheel that serves no real purpose other than making really mother****ing annoying sounds (The cartwheel is actually good, but the fact that anyone is close enough for him to cross them up with it is laughable in itself).
Akuma has Tatsu. He also has Tatsu. Oh, and did I mention he has Tatsu? You might think his 45 degree, multiple speed and minor offset angle variation, Gohadukenbatsutechomehadukenkatsendobashi is useless, but the fact that he can approach from parabolic air with it just barely ahead of him completely shuts down so many characters. Factor in how stupid his Tatsu is, the ability to combo off the damn thing, the complete fear of anyone and their mom calling in Sentinel for mix up purposes because of the purple lightning spin of bullshit, and you’ve got a character that outranks Cap and Deadpool.
P.S. Tatsu laughs at Deadpool’s meager attempts at zoning. It also laughs at his teleport. Mwhahahahahahaha – oh shit my Akuma just died… Fuck yo health Brokuma. Fuck yo health.
Well, if it’s like that then I respect your opinion.
If you think my list is flawed I also respect it, my tier list is based upon my own personal experience and I don’t agree with some of the other lists either, everyone has their own opinion.
Thank you. I seriously mean no disrespect. This is the internet and I take no extra effort to soften my words, so it can get skewed. I totally disagree with your list, but for what it attempts to evaluate I can mostly agree with it. Make sense?
In my opinion not only are these characters top tier, but almost all of these characters are bad matchups for wolverine, except possibly wesker, c. Viper, nova, spencer, frank west and task master. They’re not impossible matchups, but they’re at least 6-4, at worst 8-2 or even 9-1 imo in the case of Magneto, unless wolverine has an assist like vajra. To have so many bad matchups in a tier I question if the character should be in that tier in the first place. Wolverine falls into the category of characters who loses to zoners in general (not 100%, in general, please note that), such as felecia and iron fist. He has more in common with those characters than he does with any I placed above him. Sure they have ways around things, that’s obvious otherwise the matchup would be an impossibility, but just because they have ways around things doesn’t mean the matchup is actually in their favour and that’s what matters here. We have to assume that the start of the round is a 50/50 and that it could go either way, we can’t be biased to one character just because they can do something and win. We also have to assume the opponent can do something as well and that in this situation initiate a keep away pattern and run away. It’s easier for keep away characters to defend against wolverine and keep him out, than it is for him to get in and stay in, that’s why all of this is at least 6-4 against wolverine. We can argue this till we’re blue in the face so it’s probably best to agree to disagree, but that’s how I see it.
In regards to Amaterasu and Phoenix, these are both characters who’ve suffered heavily from nerfs. They’re both very potent characters but two I think underachieve overall. They are deffinately my wild card decisions though, Amaterasu most because I probably have less experience with her to make a good solid judgement, and Phoenix because the situation is so random, so you’re right to criticise them. I place Amaterasu where I do simply because she doesn’t perform well when it comes down to the crunch.
The problem with Phoenix is that not only did they nerf her number of actions in the air but they also nerfed the range and motion on the fireballs them selves. Phoenix has serious problems running away now, something which is critical to her survival. Her air H fireballs are ineffective at full range against a lot of characters and this is the place where she wanted to be so she can pin you down and escape safely without risking her partners getting tagged with a snap back and being brought straight back in again. Her best imediate option is probably j.M shot unless she is flying. She cant block in the air either after throwing a fireball, she essentially guard breaks her self if she goes for it, and leaves her self even more open if she tries to fly first. Her point game is okay, j.d+H is really good and and land well against other attacks, but as always playing Phoenix on point is a gamble, and when Phoenix is ever on point it’s not under her rules and her control. Her ability to get out of range, stay out of range and get away safely in the grand scheme of things is almost non existent and she relies solely on one incoming guess and following executional errors on behalf of the opponent to survive well. Phoenix was simply a guessing game and now she has to rely more on being random and unpredictable, something with her new limited options is going to be a lot more difficult to do. She probably has better options rushing down than running away which is kind of counter productive and risky to her game. I think once most Phoenix players start getting into regular paterns she isn’t going to be much of a problem. I mean this is all down to your own interpretation, but I’d probably say she’s upper mid at best. Most characters can survive one mix up, there’s no making wrong decisions with Phoenix, it’s all or nothing. She has probably what is the best hyper in the game though, shame it costs meter to use it.
LOLOLOLOLOL that guy had Phoenix in the bottom 3. I haven’t had tar that good in a long time bro, which dealer you buyin’ from?
From all the CREDIBLE posters so far, (i.e. the ones devijin has on front page/non-retarded ones) Phoenix averages to A+/2nd tier. Really don’t know why she’s at third on the front page if this is a general consensus.
What you said is mostly right, but I hope no one uses that overhead without an assist call or something. It’s a good overhead, but like all overhead it’s pretty telegraphed (except Joes <.<).
You are severely overrating zoning in this game. Also, you can’t approach tiering as JUST match ups. Wolverine adds something to a team that a lot of characters can’t and that is tremendous momentum. We can stop discussing this though, I can’t seem to change your mind. I promise you though, zoning is not as powerful as you seem to believe, unless it’s very specific zoning teams.
Dude, what does crunch mean? Ammy performs well at any spot on a team. Let me go find me tools list I posted again (scrolls up):
Ammy has more tools that most characters in the game do. She’s the second swiss army knife of this game (maybe the third, after Viper and Dante).
Disc: Great strings, Solar Flare counters are especially good in particular match ups, nice jumping H, Glaive: Huge range, huge jumping H (better for range than quick a quick overhead like Disc), a dive kick, thunder edge is safe, Rosary: HUGE jumping H (really just for spacing), Cold Star is fantastic with assist + stuttering, Overall: Paper is create for safe strings and screen control, Slow Down makes all of Ammy’s match ups easier, Okami Shuffle helps shut down specific match ups and has great utility as a THC, huge airthrow, solid damage, Cold Star assist is great and versatile.
As you can see, she has a lot of options. I’ll cut this short again for you to absorb and respond.
As for Phoenix, just the risk of her gaining 5 bars is enough IMO. She definitely is not the threat she was before, but you can’t ignore the fact that 5 bars will likely end the game. She still can escape several set ups with air dash up, flight mode, etc. Though she is definitely more suspect to snapback mix ups.
I saw all of Viscant’s matches on that stream. Zero was the worst character on Viscant’s team, didn’t do as much work as the other characters just built meter for Dark Phoenix. Also, Dr. Doom builds alot of meter by himself as well, so getting Dark Phoenix is a really high possibility. I’m talking about Ultimate MvC3 Zero not vanilla.
Agreed that many characters become monsters in level 3. Viper especially. I dont usually apply seismo pressure to get pushblocked in level 3 because here basic seismo air dash game is just too crazy.
As far as testing it I have already told you I frequently obliterate ENTIRE teams in a matter of 10 to 15 seconds with level 3 Viper. It is one of the scariest characters in level 3 in the game because air throw, ground throw, high, low, random air hit, seismo hit, burn kick hit all lead to death without any execution really required because she hits so hard.
You dont see Viper anchors because almost all Viper players design their team based around her and most start her on point… which is essentially her best spot. So most of the time if people get down to level 3 Viper is was basically by accident but it is a great accident to have. I run a Jill, Sentinel, Viper based team because I needed an OTG assist and refuse to play Wesker so Viper sits in the back at #3 and when it comes down to her she usually has access to level 3 XFC and man is it crazy how well she can run through a team so quickly.
Yea Viscant won a tourney with his week 1 Zero that should say something. He obviously did well enough with him to get enough meter for DP in most situations as well so I dont know how you can ignore that. Viscant was getting by doing the most basic of basic stuff, I cant wait to see his Zero in a couple of months.
All your opponent would have to do against anchor viper is jump, she’s alot weaker without an anti air assist. If it’s all ground based then yeah, C. Viper would be a terrifying anchor. I swear people forget about simple things. Good anchors can punish you from ANYWHERE on the screen. That’s a sign of a good anchor.
Ok, to everyone who put Doom in S-tier, I 100% disagree and say that you are wrong, because Doom has one tragic flaw that keeps him from that tier & that’s his inability to fight against keepaway characters & especially keepaway teams. Now, a lot of people don’t play keepaway teams or maybe have just experimented with a couple, but trust me when I say that Doom has seriously bad matchups against certain characters. I main Deadpool, and the Doom-Deadpool matchup is honestly around 8-2, 7-3 at the least. The fact is, Doom doesn’t have much answers to a distance game nor a legitimate way of getting in without leaving himself vulnerable.
(Assuming both characters are fullscreen, which is easily achieved)
He has plasma beam, whose durability isn’t that great, and is usually beaten out by a Keepaway character’s go to projectile, like Hawkeye’s piercing bolt; photon array, which almost anything can beat and even if it does connect, does barely any damage; hidden missiles, your just a standing target, which you can maybe get off 3 or 4 missiles before you are hit, and the missiles can be avoided easily.
Now, for Doom to get in: footdives are out of the question; ground and tri dashes leave him vulnerable; what most people do is super jump into air photons to cover their footdives, which works for the most part, but the time it takes for the photons or divekick to travel, the opponent has plenty of time to stop, jump back and pushblock, putting Doom farther away.
Honestly, ask any person who plays keepaway legitimately, they will say that they don’t have much problems dealing with Doom’s unless they made a mistake on their own part. Besides that, Doom loses to Hawkeye, Deadpool, Morrigan, Rocket Raccoon, & even Arthur. None of said characters are S tier, some barely make A, and the majority is B tier. If Doom were really S-tier, he shouldn’t have problems dealing with more than several B-tier characters.
As for NorCal guys lacking knowledge, it’s not like we’re particularly behind any of the other places. We tied with SoCal for having the most top 8 placers at EVO, our top representatives have beaten the top representatives of every other location at least once Primarily F-Champ beating Justin, Tihn taking second at SCR, me versus Flocker, etc. It’s best not to call us out just because we’re less publicized than SoCal. Viper has holes, all of which are covered by either other tools in her skill set or her favorite assists (Vajra/Jam Session/Missiles). Out of all of the excellent people I’ve gotten to play I have never felt I lost the match up because of a flaw in Viper, but only a flaw in my decision making or execution.
You are underselling the dramatic change that frame advantage over eating three mix ups means in this game. I would gladly trade 1 gauge to not have to test my blocking skills against an opponent with competent rush down, the best way to deal with mix up is not getting put in a situation where you can get mixed up in the first place. Of course connecting an EX seismo is even better, but on block and whiff it doesn’t behave like all the other reversals in this game and that’s part of why it’s so important. Having a dramatically low risk tool to convert things from defensive to neutral or to a combo on hit is incredibly important and keeps other characters from being able to execute their own powerful tools as freely as they would on anyone else in the cast. Additionally you bring an assist into this which if they summoned an assist, assists can’t block and EX seismo with proper execution should lead to the deaths of the popular assists pretty convincingly since on advance guard for each hit a seismic string off of EX seismo should either do 400K for the scrubbiest possible one, and 850ish for the semi legitimate one which also more than builds back all of the meter of having used EX seismo in the first place.
As for forcing people into bad situations, any time they block and you viper ball correctly it negates advance guard and if done perfectly leaves you +15ish or so, if you think a character with access to an assist, a 4 frame low, can kill off a throw, air dash down mix up, ambiguous single, double, or triple left right mix ups, and with proper team configuration can always unblockable off of an EX seismo doesn’t have available BS I must disagree. This isn’t like Hulk being left with frame advantage in your face, but a character that has faster more accessible mix up tools that can be set up to be visually ambiguous.
Hit confirming off laser is too meter expensive unless you really want the target dead, but not that hard. Hit confirming off long distance seismo on the other hand is just a matter of execution and doesn’t take any meter. The only specific thing it requires going in your favor is that you properly tiger knee the burn kick. or for the fancy types that you get your focus dash cancel assist summon viperball C, S land off correctly (At the very farthest tip of C seismo range you either need to do the burn kick exceptionally well, or use gauge on EX viperball.) As for with assist, with her block strings with rapid seismo there isn’t a particularly good reason not to summon vertical arrows or vajra or something similar when you’re planning to to a full distance single or double seismo. Laser is something that if people were moving forward is easy to confirm off of with EX seismo since it shuts down tridashes while it’s clearing things. You aren’t relying on people taking the shot like an idiot, you’re using your other tools to condition them to do certain options in certain situations. As for the 20+ frames and her eyes glowing, if you’re playing the character properly nobody is yet It’s just like Zero, there’s no reason not to have your laser charging at all times. If people are reacting to her eyes starting to glow then they should always be assuming it’s coming out. Laser is good for the same reason buster is in neutral since it can get rid of whatever issues were in the way in a way and soft knock down whatever was causing it, preventing people from using tools that are otherwise strong in every match up. Also, yes you can cancel laser into EX thunder knuckle and full throttle far or EX seismo semi far.
First, the change they did to take out the infinite was on the hit stun of Fierce thunder knuckle as opposed to TK C burn kick according to the change log. Focus dash + generic assist to insure pressure on failure and better confirm on hit before TK burn kicking is definitely ideal as that way you’re making a read where either of the two options are still favorable, even if not both being as favorable as a dead character. FA cancelling was mutually discovered by a lot of people if I’m not mistaken. At least on the forums a lot of people had discovered it on their own and posted there talking about it. It only leads to death if you’re doing it wrong and it’s not impossibly difficult. Saying that she can get a fierce thunder knuckle is like saying Ryu shouldn’t throw hadoukens in SFIV because if he does it wrong he gets a shoryuken in neutral which will get him massively injured for sure. It’s not a viable way to rank characters unless they rely on something which with practice it’s apparent that people cannot become consistent with IE Yoga Strike DHC unblockable Proton Cannon DHC Hyper Sentinel Force into 300% as opposed to Yoga Strike DHC a frame or more late blocked Proton Cannon Doing fierce seismic hammer consistently is not hard enough to warrant making execution errors with it a long term mistake, just a problem right now as people are getting accustomed to the game. As for confirming you get to do the same string on block or on hit, so all you’re confirming is that it’s not whiffing which is infinitely faster and easier. When your block options leave you in a favorable situation as opposed to leaving you negative your goal is just to set it up as opposed to hit confirming since it doesn’t use up your resources.
I agree on her upward air dash, but there are rarely times to use it when her double jump is that good. Viper DHCs are actually very good for keeping your enemy from doing certain things especially when you have fast activation supers that let you confirm. Burst Time hits on practically the frame after flash if you’re trying to confirm against an air opponent but the power of emergency combination is that you can use it in a lot of situations people have committed to something since most characters need to work exceptionally hard to get enough invincibility to avoid it. For leaving her in a position to be most powerful, on hit both of them let her play her neutral game with a starting advantage from the soft knock down while her opponents start grounded which is where she dominates the cast the most. Burst time is for random confirms against air like you’re saying, Emergency combination prevents them from using a lot of things depending on your situation. I’ll give an example from Vanilla that still works the same way.
Say I’m fighting F-Champ’s old (Mag/Sent/Dorm) against my old (Viper/Dante/Magneto) and I’d DHCd out Viper to save her earlier bringing in Dante, a situation you would not recommend based on previous posts. Now along with my scary Dante things like stinger, reverb shock, stand A, etc on the ground, there are a lot of situations where Dormammu can no longer use dark hole, dark matter, purification, or flame carpet because I can on reaction devil trigger XX Emergency combination to punish him and nothing outside of X-factor can get him out of it. Having an invincible beam eliminating DHC takes away a lot of options from people when you have a fast activation hyper to DHC into it. It’s an incredibly important tool to have available.
Both Marlin and K-beast used H TK as their assists for awhile, K-beast joined me with burn kick after some point but even now Marlin runs thunder knuckle assist. It just gives you another option. I still endorse burn kick since the characters she pairs with best can abuse it a lot more than they can thunder knuckle.
It’s a strong match up specific spacing for her, I’d definitely rather fight an X-factor 3 Wesker than Viper the vast majority of the time but people seem plenty happy with him. I think she’s top 5 anchors but not necessarily top 3 like she is in most other things. If it’s against one of the match ups where she doesn’t prefer her assists as heavily Say fighting some popular characters like Wesker, Spencer, Wolverine, etc. She’s still one of the best choices for anchor.
(I’ll respond to this next part in the next post. SRK’s post cap is way too small! D: )
Zero is still good, but he simply isn’t the best is what I’m saying, Dark Phoenix with 2 of the games best batteries won Viscant the tournament… If you looked at the stream you would see for yourself that his Dr. Doom and Phoenix put in most of the work. Just so you know I’m not BSing you since it seems you don’t trust what I say which is weird cause I try to stray away from opinion as much as possible and look at results, with a very little pinch of theory.
In order from left to right until i get to a/b tier, whereforth I don’t play any of those characters.