I’ve never seen it, that’s why I act that way. I am uncultured with MODOK.
Don’t hold your breath. Did you forget this is the community that is so lazy we were saying Zero did low damage for around 8 months.
[details=Spoiler]Top 15 Characters (Meta-Game changers included, not taking assists into account). This is in no particular order, just alphabetical[details=Spoiler]
- Albert Wesker
- Crimson Viper
- Dante
- Doom
- Dormmamu
- Felicia
- Firebrand
- Hawkeye
- Magneto
- Spencer
- Strider
- Taskmaster
- Vergil
- Wolverine
- Zero
[details=Spoiler]Top 10 Underrated Characters [details=Spoiler]
- Amaterasu
- Akuma
- Captain America
- Chris
- Deadpool
- Haggar
- Morrigan
- Storm
- Super Skrull
- Trish
My Chris and Thor team laugh at random Gimlets.
Thanks for wasting a meter by hitting me with a toothpick.
Well, I think her rush down is more than mediocre without assist too. The unblockables can lead to more damage than a combo can (depending on what character is doing the combo of course). They can also be used in situations outside of combos.
Amaterasu can get pretty big damage, but I can’t disagree with it being underneath those others. I just think her ability to shut down a lot of characters in this game is too powerful to ignore. Her low hurtbox can mitigate cross up attempts, her tools can answer a variety of situations, and she’s even a damn good anchor with XF3 + Slow Down.
It seems we agree mostly, save on where the characters should fall in the tiers. Which sounds contradictory, but it isn’t. We both respect all 4 of the characters we discussed, I just prefer their utility over Vergils. It could perhaps be directly involved with player preference.
Just wanted to say that I don’t personally see any point in making separate tier lists for point characters and assists. In reality, neither exist in a vacuum. When you choose a character, you’re using 1 of 3 character slots and getting XYZ (i.e. their contributions to the team (as a point, battery, assist, anchor, etc)) out of it. The specific contents of XYZ are irrelevant. Their value only exists when taken in proper context as a whole.
It’s like making a tier list of who has the best normals. Viper would be low tier, but what does that matter? That situation (i.e. characters only having normals) does not exist and therefore is pointless.
Revised List
Spoiler
A+ - Zero, Dante, Hawkeye, Wesker, Dormammu, Doctor Doom
A - Vergil, C. Viper, Strider, Magneto, Trish
B - Firebrand, Morrigan, Viewtiful Joe, Nova, Spencer, Frank West, Taskmaster
C - Wolverine, Jill, Storm, Iron Fist, Felicia, Dr Strange, Akuma, Captain America, X-23, Amaterasu, Phoenix, Rocket Raccoon
D - Haggar, Sentinel, Super Skrull, Deadpool, Chris, Ryu, Iron Man, Thor, MODOK, Nemesis, Ghost Rider, Arthur
E - Chun-Li, Hsien-Ko, Hulk, Tron Bonne
F - Shuma Gorath, Phoenix Wright
Taken some criticism on board, had a longer think and revised my list a little, last one was only a rough draft so it was vastly incomplete and served more as a structure for me to look at. This one isn’t perfect but I’m pretty happy with it, it’s based on personal experience, personal opinion and tournament footage. Criticisms and opinions more than welcome, my reasoning and method is as follows. If people want character specifics I’ll post on request.
A - Characters who either dominate or have qualities that outshine most others in their respective character types. They cover important space, have varied teleports, have long range, high priority normals or hypers, above average damge, potent assists, they just excel in many ways other characters don’t.
B - Characters that give Wolverine and all the other characters of his type trouble, but also do well against top tiers. Among the best keep away characters in the game, they control important space, keep characters out well but can also rush down just as well.
C - Characters that can compete on a high level but have a hard time against keep away. They also have some problems against Ghost Rider but they have qualities that make them better than the majority of the cast, such as fast overheads, crossups, good air mobility, high priority projectiles and invincibility. Great characters but have flaws and tend to lose to most of the above.
D - Characters that can compete with Ghost Rider but lack that extra little something to reward a higher spot. They have arguable keep away capabilities but have limitations and generally lose to more capable rushdown characters.
E/F - Characters which are just poor all round. Sub par projectiles, average rushdown, lack of teleports or movement options. Lose to almost everything in comparison to the rest of the cast.
lol
You did some serious thinking I see.
Update:
When I posted my first tier list, I decided to keep it in a neutral format without using tiers like A+ or B-, IMHO, it made things easier for me. However, rules changed and I had to divide the characters from the “A” list in two separate tiers.
Adding an A+ tier isn’t the only change you’ll notice, several characters moved from one tier to another.
Notes:
-Many things changed in my tier list, I will add explanations in my original post for every single decision for my tier list during the week, starting from S tier to D.
-My tier list is still based in self-sufficiency and individual abilities for each character.
-I do NOT consider assist-backup for a character in my tier list, however I do consider the assist options offered by that character.
-I highly disagree when somebody says that this game should be tiered based on teams. Even if this is a team-based game, we need to understand that each character in our team has its own reasons to be there. Every character should be tiered as an individual… if you don’t agree with that, you might want to stop reading by now.
-Meter efficiency is really important, if your character spends too much meter in order to be effective and isn’t able to gain levels by himself, don’t expect him to be top tier.
-With the new format, A+ stands for my old definition of A tier characters and A- is the new tier for bottom A characters and top B characters.
There’s isn’t a particular order within tiers… yes, that goes for Zero as well.
UPDATED TIER LIST
Spoiler
S (Any of these will make your team better.)
Amaterasu
Dante
Dormammu
Zero
Doctor Doom
Akuma
Vergil
A+ (Characters that can be on point and shine for Middle and Anchor positions)
Storm
Super Skrull
Spencer
Strider Hiryu
Morrigan
Magneto
Firebrand
Felicia
Nova
Wesker
Taskmaster
A- (Strong characters for Point and Middle positions)
Modok
Trish
Hawkeye
Viewtiful Joe
Viper
Deadpool
Sentinel
Nemesis
Wolverine
X-23
B (Good characters with good assists that may need some specific team building)
Rocket Raccoon
Ryu
Jill
Haggar
Chun Li
Thor
Arthur
Hulk
Frank West
Captain America
Iron Fist
Chris
Dr Strange
Iron Man
Shuma Gorath
Spider Man
She Hulk
Ghost Rider
C (Charaters with serious flaws that need entire teams and strategies designed around them in order to be effective)
Hsien Ko
Phoenix
Tron Bonne
D (That’s what you get for throwing paperwork at Doom’s face)
Phoenix Wright
Well, I think this list is more accurate than my first one, maybe you’ll understand better when I update with some explanations.
Here’s the original post. (My tier list changed but the message is still the same)
Spoiler
Warning: THIS WILL BE A LONG READ.
I have been reading these forums for a long time now, but this is my first time posting here. I hope you guys can take my opinion in a constructive way even if I don’t agree with some of your points of view (sorry if my english isn’t perfect).
First of all, I think that some users are having big mistakes while selecting characters for their tier lists because they have misconceptions on how to do a proper list.
I understand that opinions are mostly subjective, however, if we want to keep this tier talk for real, there are some basic points that should be revisited.
Let’s remember MvC2 tier list, the game is old enough and never had balance changes… so we can say that its tier list is pretty solid. Tier talk should be about actual KNOWN data and not “what if” or “he is top tier because there’s some unknown potential”.
TIER LISTS SHOULD NEVER BE ABOUT UNEXPLORED TECH. That’s why they keep changing, because people discover new things, until a big discovery happens, HOLD TO THE CURRENT KNOWN DATA.
Also, for individual character tier lists, we need to evaluate the following points:
Character’s individual abilities and stats: Ok, so this is when you start analizing the character’s individual potential. Is it a good battery character (Magneto) or does it require another character to get HC gauge in order to spend it (Phoenix), is it a zoning character and if so, what kind of zoner, keep-away (Hawkeye) or terrain control (Dormammu) because there’s a clear difference between them. Also ask yourself which role is better suited for him (Point, Middle or Anchor). Most of the time, the true “S” tiered characters end up being the best options for anchors since they don’t need assists and have enough tools at their disposal to make your enemy’s life a living nightmare.
Normals and specials: These are the tools that your character has in order to get the job done and this will define your characters gameplay for the most time. Frame data, move priority and hitbox knowledge help with these. Also, factors as super armor and kara cancelling should be considered.
Hyper combos and gauge management: How good are your HC options with that character. You need to evaluate utility and damage. Is it worth spending meter with that character and if so, which is the best way to do it?
What assist options can this character offer to a team. Even though we are trying to measure individual character “tierness” (if that’s even a word), our character needs to be evaluated as an assist himself because what he can provide as an assist can be a game changer (Haggar in vanilla MvC3 is a perfect example). Note the difference, we are not evaluating how good our character is while being backed up by assists, we are doing it the other way around, our character as an assist for others.
Character’s weaknesses, limitants and match ups: What’s stoping our character from winning? Is it other character that can counter mine in many ways OR is it that my character doesn’t have enough options at his disposal? Remember that one character countering yours isn’t going to have a significant impact in tier lists either for one character or the other, however, many characters countering yours is gonna end bringing him down in that list.
Character’s Mix-ups and mobility options: It’s Mahvel baby! Mix-ups are deadly, does your character need an assist in order to set them or can he do it by himself. If you are playing rushdown, you need to reach your enemy, are you going to air-dash, wave dash, plink dash, teleport or use a bionic arm? If you are running from a rushdown character you also need to use one of the aforementioned methods. Try to find out what the metagame for your character should be like.
These are some of the most important points to take into consideration before making a decision, after analizing known facts, we can now properly place Zero in the “S” tier position!!.. wait, what?
Yep, Zero is an example of an excellent character that can deal against almost any other character that isn’t named Hawkeye, he offers solid assists and can be placed as point (excels here), middle (excels here) or anchor (pretty good).
After revisiting these points, I will post my tier list and some thoughts behind it. Please be advised, I know I’ll probably get flamed for some decisions (Viper).
Spoiler
S tier is for characters that don’t have a strong weakness and are dominant in most matches, they have solid assists, have some the best uses for HC gauge, can set up deadly mixups and have assistless options for any kind of situation, can be on point, middle or anchor without any problems.
A tier is for characters that are excellent doing their roles and are able change their playstyle if required and still be good with it, usually better placed at middle and anchors, but still good on point characters, they offer nice or okay assists and can be monsters without the need for assist back up.
B tier is for characters that show their best when having assists. These characters may excel at one playstyle but may lack at another and need at least one assist to be 100% effective. This are NOT bad characters, they are actually pretty effective but some of their weaknesses make it clear why they should be on point or middle AT most and not as anchors.
C tier is for characters that need to be backed up by assists in order to function properly, they can put in a good fight but they need a team built around them. Some assist characters will be in this tier.
D tier is for characters that have serious flaws, they don’t offer enough reasons to have them in a team and even with two assists, they may struggle to win a battle.
The characters per category aren’t in a specific order, there may be better characters than others in the same tier.
S Tier
Strider
Zero
Amaterasu
Dante
Akuma (Seriously, his assist is still really good, he is an incredible anchor, can kill most of the cast with 2 levels and be a monster without the need of assists. If played smart he can do well against zoners)
A Tier
Firebrand
Morrigan
Nova
Dormammu
Hawkeye
Doctor Strange
Wesker
Deadpool
Dr Doom
Trish
Storm
Spencer
Super Skrull
Magneto
Taskmaster
B Tier
Vergil
Viper (see details below)
Nemesis (People want to play him as Hulk, but he is in reality a pretty solid zoning character, excells at mid screen and has great command grabs)
Chris
Ghost Rider
Rocket Raccoon
Ryu
Wolverine (He has serious probems against zoners unless he is backed by an assist)
Iron Man
X-23
Modok
Felicia
Viewtiful Joe
Spider-man
Sentinel
Hulk
She hulk
Iron Fist (underrated character, he isn’t in the same tier as Hsien Ko that’s for sure)
Captain America
C Tier
Haggar (A monster if played right but needs 2 assists to get the best from him)
Shuma-Gorath
**Arthur **(A ground dash would make him so much better)
Chun Li
Frank West (needs assists or team DHC options to lvl up, from level 3+ he gets pretty good, he always gets a second spot for the assist and to fish exp. points)
Tron Bonne
Thor (S tier for training dummy)
Phoenix (Even if Dark Phoenix is S tier, she depends in an entire team to get HC Gauge for her, getting to lvl 5 is harder now since the lvl gain nerf and meter can now be stealed, she is easier to chip and she can’t participate in a fight unless she has 5 levels, which makes her a gamble that may or not pay off, with that said, the selection of the first two characters is pretty limited too)
**Hsien Ko **(Bottom of the C list)
D Tier
Phoenix Wright (the nerf in his assist made him nearly useless since he depends in luck, even with an entire team designed around him he has terrible flaws)
I’m open to discussion, but right now I want to speak a little bit about Viper.
Viper has been in the spotlight in this forums and many times when she gets questioned by somebody, they get flamed or accused of being trolls, when somebody asks for proof about Viper he either gets one of the following responses: “Viper takes time to master” or “don’t feed the troll”.
In all seriousness, Viper made it to “S” tier in these forums because of unquestioned theory, asking for proof isn’t something offensive since she has been questioned several times without a true answer.
Let’s analyze Viper (this is coming from a Viper player)
Spoiler
First of all, is Viper a good anchor? If you have seriously used Viper then you know what the answer is, a BIG NO, there are better options for anchors and Viper is placed on point or middle spot, why is that? Because she needs at least one assist to be 100% effective. She doesn’t have enough tools by herself that could make her a good anchor. Does this mean that every anchor is an S tier? No, but anchors are the ones fighting by their own against another character or even entire teams, so it’s something important to consider that.
She isn’t in the same level as Strider or Zero, saying that she is “S” tier is seriously overrating her, and I’m going to give a step ahead and say that she’s “B” tier (according to my tier explanations).
Let’s look at some A tier characters and see what Viper has to offer in order to earn that place in the same tier.
Magneto: Great ranged game, Attraction / Repulsion options, sick mobility with fly/unfly tech, can be placed within any spot in the team, high damaging combos without the need for assists, great battery character with powerful Hyper Combos. I haven’t seen a team where Viper could provide as much as Magneto and he is usually accepted as “A” tier, not “S”, wonder where’s Viper in the tier lists.
Trish: Best example of an “A” worthy character, she is really strong with keepaway tactics, she offers great assists, she can switch to heavy rushdown, she has flight mode with blazing fast dashes, her C. m dodges beams, she has a Dive kick, great Hyper Combo options for damage or lockout. Is Viper in the same level as her? Really?
Storm: Some of THE BEST hyper combos in the game, great mobility with flight mode, can easily reset combos by herself without having to work in some absurd mix ups, can play a good zoning game thanks to her nice specials, can be placed within any spot in the team and cause plenty of chip damage.
Morrigan: Lots of new technology has been coming out for her, Chris G showed us how much of a powerful zoner she is at a high level, her assist is pretty safe and gives meter, can be placed within any spot in a team, has flight mode, her air dashes are pretty fast now and her lvl 3 hyper is crazy good. Some of her new combo technology is harder to execute than Viper’s and pretty much her technology is harder to master, then I wonder, why is it taking so long to discover Viper’s super hidden technology? Is SHE REALLY that hard?
Firebrand: His moveset is just sick. Even without the fully charged unblockable move, the move’s angle and speed is pretty good, he can be placed in any spot in a team, he can maintain pressure if he cancels his normals into flight specials, can attack with fireballs and cover many spaces, put his own flamecarpet, his mobility puts others in shame and his white armor is a huge plus, not to mention when paired with his lvl 3 HC (what happens when you add X-factor too?). I honestly can’t see how Viper competes against that.
Spencer: This is the best example of a rushdown character that is “A” tier worthy. Great assists, beats advancing guard with Zipline, easy execution, high damage, can move around zoning (Watch PR Balrog against Chris G), has good priority moves and can set easy resets WITH COMMAND GRABS and has brutal Hyper combos. Not to mention that his Hyper Combos are a luxury since he can be a monster without spending meter. Viper players tend to believe that Viper’s reseting technology with grabs is pretty strong, but that’s old school technology and is unsafe, anyone that knows how to play against viper knows that she will go for a reset for the most time and be prepared for it.
All these comparisons were made against standalone characters in the “A” tier, not taking assist backup into consideration.
Assistless Vipers can be zoned pretty bad, the problem that Wolverine has against zoners, is the same for Viper and she doesn’t make it any better, Seismo is not an option because if the enemy pushblocks, Viper gets thrown to the other side of the screen (for real), is that the place where you want to be against a zoner or a character that has projectile options? I don’t think so. People speak about how nasty EX Seismo is, but as a former Viper player I can also see how nasty the level cost is.
However don’t get me wrong, I know that Viper is a monster in competitive gaming, but not a game changer by herself. She needs a team in order to function properly and if we were throwing teams into tiers, then yes, she could be “S” tier worthy, as far as an individual character I don’t think she offers as much as those in my current “A” tier.
I’m going to throw one last comparison for those saying that Viper’s technology is incredibly hard to develop, look at some of Borawserboxer videos where MODOK’s tech gets discovered, MODOK is PURE HARD EXECUTION and has plenty of tools to discover much more stuff with him. In my own personal opinion, if people really wanted to put some time into it, MODOK could be much more of a problem for other characters than Viper. THAT is true hard tech to come up with, made me remember when I thought Viper was hard. At least a MODOK player CAN BACK UP THOSE WORDS WITH PROOF because there are actual videos showing it, something that “Theory Viper” can’t. The bad thing with MODOK is that Borawserboxer seems to be the one of the only true scientists trying stuff like.
Viper was probably one of the best characters in Vanilla when rushdown was godlike, but UMvC3 brought strong buffs for zoners. Not saying that zoning is the way to go now, but rushdown is not where it was before. This affected several characters but in a good way, since players need to learn to make a functional team.
The problem with these lists is that people tend to rank their characters while saying “Yeah, Wolverine can beat zoners, just throw in an assist”, tiers are for individual characters and should be done with individual character’s data. Does it mean that a “B” character will get bodied in a match by an “S” character?? Absolutely not, tier lists are just a reference to individual character’s potential, this game is team based and that’s how characters like Ironfist get to win tournaments, with good players and good team synergy.
Let’s make a real tier list for what we have RIGHT NOW and if something gets discovered along the way, then we can consider it and change it.
TIER LISTS ARE NOT FOR FUTURE POTENTIAL, THEY REPRESENT WHERE THE GAME BALANCE IS AT RIGHT NOW. PLEASE KEEP IT THAT WAY. Didn’t we learn that from MvC2 and Street Fighter 4? If we keep looking into future potential, our dreams and hopes of getting an accurate Tier list will be destroyed by patches every 3 months.
I hope you had a good read, it took me some time to write it.
He explains what each letter means in his post. It is a little different than your A is better than B than C etc. list… but it makes some sense.
I will for sure take my time to read. You should edit it though and add some spoiler tags so it doesnt look like such a huge wall o text.
Why on earth are you not tiering based on teams?
Your ellipse and the word some completely sum up my point.
You can’t tier characters without considering what teams they’ll be on. It’s stupid to do so, absolutely. This is a team game. You either tier them as what teams will make them best (Zero) or by what they can add to the team via assist, dhcs, anchor abilities, etc. (Strider).
There is such thing as having an own opinion. I await you reason, logic and wisdom to explain what you think is flawed.
Also, why the what the heck are you saying that MODOK has videos and Viper doesn’t? Viper has legit tournament showings, which MODOK has very few of. I’m not saying that’s important, but you obviously think it is, so why do you ignore it?
I am going to comment on more about this list later but I have to address this right away. This is just simply wrong. Dark Viper is one of the best anchors in the game. Essentially it makes her great neutral game even more fantastic and takes away the need for any serious execution as basic ABC combos will kill off characters. Air throw, ground throw, random air hit, ground hit, seismo hit, burn kick hit all lead to instant easy death. The chip she does with seimos in level is is also absolutely insane.
She isnt on the same level as Zero or Strider in level 3, in fact, she is better (except when Strider has 3 meters and only needs to kill 1 character).
I hate using arguments where I use my personal experience as an example but I frequently decimate teams in a matter of 10 to 15 seconds with dark Viper with her basic seismo tri dash offense.
Alright, I’ll stop being an ass.
We’ve discussed Wolverine in detail, so I’ll skip that. I still stand by him not losing to zoning, as many others did.
Ammy doesn’t lose to zoning either though. Firstly, she crouches under half the zoning available to in this game. She has her own zoning tool in Cold Star, that with an assist + stuttering his ridiculously good. She has the green solar flare counter to stop one dimensional zoners, and Okami Shuffle and Slow Down are ways to spend meter to counter zoning. I will post a little at a time so you can refute.
Phoenix definitely doesn’t lose to zoning because he whole gameplan is to get five meters and then go crazy. Zoning a Phoenix team is inevitable futile because only helps build meter for the other team.
Okay, that’s enough. I have more, but let’s start there.
I didn’t say that Viper doesn’t have videos, but I used Modok as an example of an underexplored character and compare that to Viper’s tech so far.
Yes I know Viper is strong in tournaments but I haven’t seen “S” tier material from her without assists. My list is based in individual characters and not around teams. Same I did with wolverine.
son I am dissapoint