I think you’re missing the whole ‘use meaty so they can’t run away or attack on incoming’ thing. Tell me how one gets out of the X-23 setup if she calls Dante for Jam Session.
You can’t, but if you’re playing an X-23 team and you don’t kill X-23 who is the heart of any team with X-23 in it, you’re setting yourself up for failure.
So if she’s on any team she becomes the heart of it and must be dealt with immediately?
This is really not sounding like a character who is in need of buffs.
She’s not that good outside of the lvl 3 incoming mixup. That’s like saying nerf Strider because of lvl 3 xfactor orbs or nerf Phoenix Wright because of turnabout mode. There’s a reason she has no tournament success and it’s because she’s not viable by herself.
That really does sound like a character that needs buffs.
Issue is with X-23 currently she needs 3 assists to be viable. Three. An OTG type assist or extender, some type of horizontal coverage and then a lockdown assist.
That is the issue.
Lets throw in Talon Attack OTG while we’re at it.
You know who’s also not viable by himself? Haggar. Buff him too. I won’t deny Wolverine does what she does easier, but better, I’m not so sure. Unlike Wolverine, X-23 can stay in the air for a long time as well as get very high up, which if Frutsy proved anything with his MODOK play, it’s exactly how valuable that can be. Mirage feint is one of the fastest crossups out there, faster than Zero’s move. Her approach is really good if she has any form of lockdown, either with air mobility or that Charged Neck Slice thing. And relying on assists is NOT a bad thing. Never was, never has been. But some characters get far more from their assists than others. Zero, Morrigan, Haggar, Wesker, Dante, X-23. Each of these characters get massive boons from assists and a few are made because of them.
And as for the LVL3…That’s an extremely damn good reason to play her. You think it’s her only defining feature or reason to play her. Frankly, it is by itself. Incoming mixups are so important in this game, having something that strong on incoming makes her very useful.
X-23 has an OTG, so she doesn’t really need one. She may not get anything off it by her lonesome, but coupled with something like, say, Plasma Beam, she can continue a combo. And speaking of Plasma, it also covers the horizontal and is good at locking people down. So is Akuma for that matter. I know a friend of mine who makes MARVELOUS use of Nemesis’s wallbounce+Missle assist. Several assists can pull at least double duty for her and I really don’t think she needs that OTG.
Doom’s beam scales the damage and combo hard and cuts her damage output badly. Akuma’s is harder to extend with.
Yes but then she loses her horizotal. She needs a buff to allow her to combo off of her own OTG and she will be a great character. But until then she will just be used for Dirt Nap gimmick.
Any scaled damage is more damage than just letting it rock. More meter too. Ease of extension is a personal problem: if it’s possible then it’s up to the player to do it.
Hawkeye arrows, Task arrows, Disruptor, Rapid Slash are also moves that fit as far as distance covering lockdown. Add in wall bounces, ground bounces, juggling moves and moves that use long hitstun. There are many, many ways to continue the combo off her OTG.
What are you referring to here?
Except we’re not talking about nerfing people, we’re talking about leaving people alone. If you’re advocating killing X23 as a matter of priority on a dirt nap team, then you concede she’s a threat.
lol, this chun li convo sounds like, waaa i want chun li to be a point character beast, and not use her in her most effective points at all. the fact is chun li is best second, which still sucks, but at least she gets tac infinite. she has instant overheads, but only on most of the taller cast, and her left right mixups just suck vs non big or tall characters. her approach is weak as fuck, fairly linear and easy to react to.
to make chun better i would give her
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a command grab, because as a box dasher with little to do but box dash, but most likely hope for a dash cr b to connect, shes not much of a threat that you cant react too
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modify her hit boxes to make instant overhead threat a real issue on most of the cast short of small characters
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modify recovery time on her kikoshen since its her general ender super so at least she can get a small advantage for maybe ch sj lightning legs setups and or just general pressure.
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without a command grab option, they could modify her box dash and normals to something like xvsf where high low was a truly hard mixup to deal with, and shes in there again no problem
other then that i think shes best second, which still sucks, but at least you get the assist and tac infinite option. then if you have to pop xf, she can be pretty good in that, but overall her design was piss poor, and nothing more then a little better version of her tvc copy. when chun at her best was xvsf, and thats all the need to look at and copy, rather then be lazy and have her be her in tvc form for the most part, and not adjust her to the whacky world of mvc3 which isnt similar to tvc in any way at all.
xvsf chun in mvc3 with dumb ass dorm like hitboxes, good recovery after supers to allow for more constant pressure, and she woulda been point character of the century. it would be so retarded.
You know what Haggar has that X-23 doesn’t? Priority, multiple OTG’s, the ability to confirm into the same combos with the same assists off of grabs or mixups. Haggar is a viable character because you don’t need special assists for damage, because the same assists you use to get in, you can use to extend. I don’t think you’ve actually attempted to make a viable X-23 team or you wouldn’t be bringing up the points you are. X-23 doesn’t have the priority needed to maul in the same manner as Wolvie. Because BS is an attack, it’s a legit 50/50 when used to mix up, where you have to stagger attacks to unsure you’re not fighting your own mixup or negating your ability to grab. Sure you can stay in the air longer than most non flight characters, but she’s not MODOK in the slightest. All you can do in the air is stay in the air, you get no offensive benefit from it and doing so will make it hard to come down safely. Hienkyaku and Mirage feint are both unsafe on startup and finish and if there is differences in them, it’s that if Zero has a charged buster he’s safe after it. You’re naming unsafe moves as good moves for approach. There’s a difference between relying and needing. X-23 getting in solo relies more on the opponent making mistakes over tools she can use which is why she’s not viable.
Lvl 3/Lvl 5 hmm there’s a reason the Evo Champ wasn’t playing with the team he is known for. In order to ensure the mixup, you either have to kill 2 chars without dying or pass on using meter until you’ve ensured you have enough, and passing up on kills for meter is a bad strategy to go in with. There’s a huge difference between being viable and being a threat, and if your team revolves around trying to make an nonviable character a threat, you’re bound to lose more often than not.
Yes, and outside of that, she’s as much of a threat as Strider with no meter and no xfactor against an entire team, without the tools to avoid being lamed out.
Are you saying all characters should be equally threatening in all situations? Because that’s terrible design philosophy.
X-23 is a character with some excellent utilities, that can in many situations get two guaranteed kills of any touch. She also has weakness that make picking her for that utility a gamble. That is not a character that needs to be buffed.
- Wasn’t saying she was MODOK, only that being in the air in such a manner is a good thing.
- Again, Mirage feint is not an approach nor have I ever said it was. It’s a mixup tool and so is Hienkyaku.
- You stated that X-23 isn’t viable by herself. I stated Haggar isn’t viable by himself. That’s all. I have more faith in a solo X-23 than a solo Haggar though.
- Getting massive amounts of meter and still landing a kill is hard-ish but do-able. And certain characters simply can’t kill in that combo, so they reset, getting more meter.
- Staying in the air in such a manner isn’t really an offensive benefit unless you’re Zero. It’s more or less a defensive benefit against the likes of X-factor, where running out the time is pretty important
- I thought he didn’t go to the team he was known for because of how hard Vergil destroys that team and the abundant amount of Vergils.
Chun-Li needs to be on point to be effective. There is no debating this. All of her assists are mediocre at best, and basic X-Factor level 1 speeds her up to the point where her high damage bread and butter combos become impossible to link. Throwing her second or third only exacerbates this problem, especially since she has no way to approach the opponent safely. The damage increase from level 3 X-Factor doesn’t mean much if your character is moving and falling so quickly that you can’t even capitalize on it. You’re setting yourself up for failure if you aren’t using assists with Chun-Li.
And once again, we come back to the fact that she’s too assist dependent for approaching. Give her Hazanshu and speed up Kikoken.
Haha it’s not all that difficult :P. You pushblock the TA at the right moment to stay airborne above the dark hole, then use whatever air mobility your character has to get away. Not guaranteed to work but at least it’s better than dying.
IMHO every character should need a various amounts of assists to offset what weaknesses they have. This is where individuality and creativity comes into play : choices. What are you willing to sacrifice to be able to play your character to the best of your personal abilities. This is why characters like X-23, Chris, Storm, Ammy etc are imho the best balanced characters of the bunch. Unique strengths with weaknesses to offset them, which is why you pick certain assists to offset thoses weakness and (are forced to) find creative ways of dealing with the holes that are left.
Then you have characters like Magneto, Zero and Vergil who do everything by themselves plus a bag of chips for the same or even greater reward than the “flawed” characters. To me that spells imbalanced, and I’d rather that every character has weaknesses that need to be covered by either solid gameplay or solid team design than the current alternative.
EDIT. Hi Duke. So no one is great with her yet, eh? 
Just want to let you know that I fapped to your Avatar.
And if they wanted to make this game better all they have to do is give zero an infinite, and lower his damage so once he hits you you stay in his combo forever.
Forgive me, this is going to be long as hell.
I absolutely adore X-23, she was the first character I picked up the instant vanilla came out and I never put her down, and though I would LOVE some buffs, I don’t think she deserves them. She is damn good. She has a lot of tools, but they are in themselves more technical and a lot harder to use instictively. Let’s compare her to Wolvy, who most would agree is a less buffworthy character. Most recently at EVO many commentators, Yipes included, agreed that X-23 is a better Wolvy who hasn’t been explored, I would necessarily say that. But she has a ton of tools Wolvy does not.
So, let’s first just say some obvious advantages Wolvy has over X-23, for example, the ability to burn multiple meters by himself to get a kill, that’s useful. He also has a mode, which allows him once again to eat up meter for safety on point, safe DHCs, and better overall team synergy (though switching to X-23’s level 3 as they are blocking from another DHC, FUN). And Wolvy’s assistless crossups go further along the screen (X-23’s solo crossup requires cancelling a Mirage Feint M into a Talon attack L halfway through There’s a reason I only use that thing offline, it’s tough to do off of the top of your head when execution is not at a premium). There’s another one. And Wolvy has better instant overheads, X-23 many many many times requires the fuzzy guard for hers, Wolvy needs that less often.
So, let’s talk what X-23 has over Wolvy. 1 meter damage- you’d be surprised, and I always lament how of the things I abuse with X-23, her insane damage is not one of them. Thing is, all the good damage comes from the ground series, jump loops, TA loops, then you air combo, and because Crescent H and Talon Attack L never have little enough hitstun to drop, the right use of however many assists you have remaining makes her do some silly damage. Example:
[media=youtube]JEA_JPazTMg[/media]!
Then there’s massive frame advantage. Seeing as any of her M or H buttons can be MFC’ed for serious frame advantage, like +near 10 if I do it correctly. Her charged Neck slice, though leaving you vulnerable for a second, has good frames for you as well, and it catches slightly airborne and ground opponents in a stagger state for EASY confirms. She’s got two dive kicks too, that can chain into each other, both working pretty well as divekicks. And her air throw is good, allows combos if you have the right stuff.
And, obvious point, she’s damn fast. Great ground movement, low hitbox, bizarrely fast wavedash. None of these advantages are Dirt Nap, and then she gets the best tool at opening an opponent in the game? Awesome.
So, then there’s how you want to play X-23. And some positions for her will give her less access to assists.
There’s certainly the notion that if you wanna play a fine-ass X-23, she wants in front for all the assist help. It’s true, an assist helps her open people up easier, an assist extends damage, and lockdown is great for her. In point, she can easily rely on assists, because many Lockdown and horizontal assists allow her to extend (she’s one of the only characters who truly can abuse Sempu Bu assist wihtout the armor), and she can use a lot of neutral game assist to extend, unlike a lot of dudes. And because she’s fast, she can get close, crossup midstring, and use some extension assists for opening up (I like Nem’s wallbounce as a ghetto Iron fist assist at times, and the rocket let’s me multiple crossup drones-style if they stand, and they won’t stand. Oh, what’s that? Command throw, DON’T MIND IF I DO! Similar concept in play with bolts of Balthakk, but they don’t extend as often, and don’t leave that nice meaty confirm off an air hit).
And, my argument for Cap is similar. You’ll always have one assist available during a combo if you’re on point. Soooooo…if Cap has two assists that help his neutral game, and both of them have the ability to relaunch (Cap needs help in the corner), you’re set for life. Same with X-23, on a well made team, any assist she has access to should do just what you need at the time.
In second, she has some obvious perks and flaws. One assist, unsafe DHCs, bad things. Access to meter and therefore Dirt Nap, more incomings in that spot, decently damaging DHCs, one that puts them in a tech roll chase situation, and one that puts them in an air throw situation, good things.
And you don’t need Dante for that X-23 unblockable. Meep, with phenomenal timing used to use Iron Fist assist to set them up. I’ve seen it done by DHCing Zero’s skittles super into Dirt Nap. I use cold star, which is imperfect, but you’re invisible, and it basically becomes a mixup. Or DHCing from slow mode on occasion, which is deadly. You rarely need an assist when they’re moving at derp speed. I’ve done it without assists a LOT too, and then it’s just a mixup that they can’t see, and if they guess wrong, they die. People forget that Phoenix is based around the same thing.
Now here’s where she gets interesting. 2nd or 3rd, she can abuse X-factor better than most other characters. Why? Her otg relaunches. All the time. No more need for assist extension then. And since you can launch, go into CS H and TA down, it’s an infinite, in level 2 or level 3. And her Neck Slice charged can do the same. You can pop X-factor to kill a character at level 1 too, if you have the right combo, you don’t need assists, though they make it easier. With the relaunch, her level 3XF combos are kills even with the worst execution (AKA me), off an air throw, off anything (ground throw might be pushing it). And in level 3 X-factor, she becomes anchor Felicia levels of terrifying. Unlike other anchors, though, in second, she has all those kill possibilities, and she has great dirt nap setups. Anchor X-23 is if you wanna abuse her mobility and always kill characters, somewhat like a hot Dark Wesker without grabs and guns, but with a divekick, or two :P.
She’s got good runaway, I like it. TA H is fun stuff, not as amazing as Modok, but no one is as good as Modok, at anything. I’m joking, kinda.
Aww, you’re sweet. I like the Nem assist because its damage is absurdly powerful late in combos, and kinda goes around the fact that my X-23 is all frames and MFC’s and no combos. also, extension for a full combo off an air throw and Dirt Nap. I can relaunch twice if I have Ammy for 900ish damage combos in the right light, but the timing to relaunch twice with my specific assist is kinda wonky, so I don’t do it in battle much. My brother has a much better team for that stuff (X-23, Dorm, Wesker)
So yeah, she’s great point opens people up, does good damage, I’d say her point is equivalent to Wolvy. She’s good on second, if you’re generous about popping X-factor, touching the second character = you win, a la Kubo. X-23 third has a low otg assist to use (albeit a bad one, the assist has a ton of fun uses, low otgs always do), frame advantage like crazy, made better with XF3, same situation with her movement, which was already one of the fastest. Unlike Wesker, her level 2 XF doesn’t need assist to match her Dark counterpart. All that plus the unblockable. She’s awesome, but no one is great with her yet, no one. She’s got the same potential as Wolvy without considering the unblockable, but everything she has is harder inputs, and just requires more skill and thought. But it’s all there, and just like Wolvy, she can extend with approach assists, making team selection massivale y boost her potential. And, after all that fun, then she has the gimmick move. Yeah, she needs no buffs at all, but I’d still like some.
EDIT: Hi Trauma, I decided to take the X-23 board into another thread. lol.
X-23 needs buffs? Over Haggar?! Lol, fuck that shit.
She’s already stupid good right now. Just not as easy as Wolverine.
Haggar is fine too.