Honestly just sounds like you’re getting the benefits of a raw tag without any of the negatives, sounds like something thats timing specific rather than any super-execution heavy inputs.
that would explain why no one has ever accidentally done it in a tournament or something.
EDIT: i can verify that DHCing after looks normal. looks funny when you DHC into strange’s SoV though lol.
ANOTHER EDIT: lol now i’m getting it to work with storm’s elemental rage! this is fun.
I was at the panel yesterday and Nitsuma did indeed say no more patches or updates. But while discussing this with some Norcal playera near a Marvel freeplay station, they all said its bullshit and Capcom is going to patch the game after EVO. Apparently it was well know there that Capcom was going to denounce the patch at their panel and the do it well after EVO. I guess their PR restrictions are huge, even the images of Cyclops and the clash system shown at the panel were pushing it.
I don’t know what to believe anymore. I mean Capcom has lied to its playerbase in the past. For now at least its worth getting down Iron Man’s TAC infinite because it is one of the better ones.
Well if this is true and Cykes makes it, Boss Shit. Hopefully he will have his fully invincibile gene splice assist. Other than that it’s whatever really. I don’t see why they would do a balance patch that adds a character or two as well and not ask for money. If anything they should patch the damn combo system. Storm should be able to do more damnit.
At this point I don’t care if this is the final version or not, I just want to know when and when not to believe Capcom. They said the ‘no more’ updates thing about SF4 3 times too…which is how many additional iterations we got.
So Nitsuma says its the last version but everyone here says its bs. He was sitting next to me during top 16 too and it looked like he was taking notes tinfoil hat
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if it is true (that this is the final version) then its time to pick-up zero.
That means we gonna get Mega Manz?
I would pay for Mega Man.
I know that’s nor reasonable nor objective. But… I am a fanboy.
First, an opinion and statement of legit substance. If they WERE to balance out the TAC glitch, I get the feeling that they’d do a good number on how it works and likely severely hurt Doom, Storm, Magneto, MODOK, maybe Sentinel and others. I’m not sure about the others, but MODOK and Doom would hurt the most. MODOK would lose his Cube combos, Doom would lose his crazy ass damage.
Secondly, I hate to be one of ‘those guys’ who thinks his word is law, but I have my own balance patch to state. It more or less popped in my head earlier and unless I get it out to SOMEONE it’s just gonna bug me. So feel free to ignore me or whatever, but I will say I’m gonna try to be as fair and balanced as I possibly can, so you may find something you agree with.
In order to be viable in UMvC3, a character needs 3 things. They need damage, they need a way to do damage, and they need something unique to make them stand out and be picked over others. There are small things like angles and DHCs, but for the most part these things are not enough. With this in mind, lets start eliminating people who don’t need balanced that much or at all. First and foremost, we need to look at the level of technology available to them and decide whether or not they are fine with just that as far as both getting in to do damage and getting in period. Please note that unless it is a special case, the AMOUNT of damage done is irrelevant, low damage character is a low damage character. Also note that while a lot of characters aren’t used, remember that not only may this be because of how high a level other choices may be, but also because those characters may or may not be explored enough.
Jill
Strider
Chris
Arthur
Frank
Wesker(Yes wesker, we’ll go over why in a little bit)
Dante
Trish
Felicia
Spencer
Akuma
Viewtiful Joe
Haggar
C.Viper
Ammy
Nova
Hawkeye
Doctor Strange
Rocket Racoon
Captain America
Dormammu
Deadpool
Wolverine
Iron Man
Doctor Doom
X-23
Storm
Thor
MODOK
Spider-man
Hulk
Skrull
Phoenix(Again, I will explain later.)
Magneto
She-Hulk
Taskmaster.
Each of these characters has either already found their niche, been explored significantly, or is strong but not batshit crazy enough to deserve a nerf. But I put at least a few people into the controversial pile and I would like to justify some others, so lets get started with the big ones
Phoenix is an example of an extremely powerful character that on the surface still seems broken. But you know what, that’s your own fault. Phoenix has several countermatchups now. Strider, Hawkeye, and of course Vergil to name a few. Each of the characters also make great anchors meaning they’re in prime spots to beat Phoenix. But there’s more. There are bits and pieces of tech running around that decrease Phoenix’s power, such as the Japanese glitch, but most importantly, if you let Phoenix come out, it’s your own damn fault. Snap outs are there for a reason, and they remain one of the strongest things to beat Phoenix. If you aren’t snapping her in, and then complain if she steam rolls you, you have no one to blame but yourself. If you’re opponent gets meter before you do, that probably means he’s landed enough combos to do it and is thus out-playing you. In that instance, you can’t really blame it on Phoenix because you’re already losing more than you think.
Wesker is a tough nut to crack as far as balancing is because he’s so hard to determine exactly how strong he is. At lower and mid levels, Wesker is an absolute beast, which is why so many people call for his nerfing, as most people are not in the upper eschelon of play. But once you get up there, you quickly realize exactly how limited Wesker can be. Without an assist backing him up, Wesker’s approach becomes much harder, and you’ll often see people spending more time firing the gun(Which IS something that demands respect) than actually trying to get in people’s face. On top of that, as of right now, Wesker has a lot of trouble against many of the ‘tops’. Zero, Vergil, Phoenix, Hawkeye, I think he has trouble with Magneto and Dormammu but I dunno. He and Doom are both in the same boat: incredibly powerful characters with somewhat wonky mobility that suffer badly from matchups. Then there’s the issue of Dark Wesker. First of all, X-Factor comebacks are overrated. It’s much harder to kill whole teams at a higher level. More commonly, X-Factor is burned on one or two people and then the last character is left to finish honest. Meanwhile, the opponent’s own team may not have used X-Factor already, so you’re left in a very poor situation if you can’t one shot characters. But that’s not being far. It is entirely possible that that one X-Factor Character can sweep a whole team. But then again, so could a whole mess of other anchors. And those anchors could be much better equipped to be on their own. Strider, for example, may not have damage, but he lands hits a LOT and is more than mobile without his teleports. And lets not even get into Vergil. Furthermore, each of the above bad matchups are all common anchors(Cept Zero but I believe he can be a good anchor anyways. Not as good as on point but meh), so Wesker vs a bunch of other bad matchups without X-Factor(Assuming it was burnt) and without assist. No wonder he’s started to drop off in high play. But back to the grand question, does he need a nerf? No, not really. Wesker is very, very linear, maning that once you figure him out, he becomes a lot easier to deal with and in the end this is his big issue. Given enough time, we may find him almost rarely used in the current game.
Besides those two, there are top characters who aren’t very…scummy? Is that the right word? Whatever. Doom and Magneto are good examples here. No one calls for Magneto nerfs because Magneto is pretty much the ‘best’ character. And no, I don’t mean he’s the best in the game. What I mean is he doesn’t rely on or use things like orbs, swords, fireball spam, dive kicks or other defining features. He’s just fast and he hurts, using tools several other people have while requiring some level of skill to maximize his effectiveness. And that’s key as far as public outcry is concerned: the level of skill. People hate losing when they feel like they’ve outplayed the opponent, hence the outcry over Wesker. But that is neither here or there, so I’ll go on. Doom, similarly, requires a lot of skill to use, a lot of skill to be TRULY effective. He has Foot Dive, yes, but relying on Foot Dive is just not smart. You have to evolve your game past that.
Now there are a few of the ‘low tiers’ on the above list, such as Jill, Thor, or Iron Man. It’s really simple: they have tools and skills, they are just HEAVILY unexplored, only a handful of people churning out good tech or representing them on stream. But the little we’ve seen is enough to clarify that they can be viable and therefore do not need nerfed/buffed.
With those untouched by the patch out of the way, lets move into those who need buffs. Some of these are minor, some of these are major. I’ll cover each individually.
Nemesis
Firebrand
Phoenix Wright
Ryu
Tron
Chun-Li
Hsien-Ko
Shuma Gorath
Ghost Rider
Iron Fist
Sentinel
We’ll start with Nemesis. I main Nemesis, he’s my man. But while there are many things that can make him better, I believe he’s decent now, just tough to maximize his use. There would be 3 changes. First, his Bio Hazard Rush AKA the punching Hyper with armor is more or less totally useless because it’s armor kicks in 11 frames later, making it terrible for an…invincible reversal like Thor, Hulk, and Haggar have. I’ll accept it being terribly unsafe, most reversals are and should be. Next, his LVL3, the Fatal Mutation or the most disgusting hyper evarr. This may be the absolute most worthless move in the entire game. There is no invincibility, it’s a 15 frame grab, and to top it off, he has his normal command grab which nets him more damage without burning 3 meters and over twice as fast at 7 frames. It has nothing going for it. Again, it’d be unfair to overbuff it, but it should at least be invincible or much faster to justify the 3 meters, slow startup and poor after combo. Lastly, this is gonna sound weird, but Nemesis’s damage is weird. It’s something that a lot of the new characters suffer from, but their bottom scaling is very, very low. The best example would be his last hyper, The Rocket OTG one. At max scaling, a big charactr like Nemesis doesn’t even crack 100K. I would rather tweak the damage a bit to help his overall damage.
Firebrand is another character who is rather underdeveloped, but he has good technology backing him up. The problem is that he has no damage. He doesn’t have a damaging LVL3 like Strider to compensate for this and like Nemesis his damage at max scaling is pitiful. I present several options for debate on how to buff him. Either give him increased overall damage, or improve his LVL3 to do this for him.
I’m sure most of us could go on for days on why Phoenix Wright is bad, so I’ll keep this brief. PW is going to be hard to patch because he is fundamentally anti-marvel. He sits in the corner and remains vulnerable while collecting evidence. The character in Turnabout mode, he’s good, I accept it and the payoff isn’t that hard. And just as Frank West and MODOK’s gimmick can be abused via different combinations, Phoenix Wright can also. Certain matchup combinations let Phoenix not only Search all 3 times, but can land an objection right after. So we know he has these setups and we’ve seen how successful MODOK and Frank can be, why not PW? Bad evidence. If it were JUST getting 3 pieces of evidence, then PW would be much better. He’d require a specific team to be truly maximized, but you can make other stuff work if needed. This all goes out the window if you get a piece of bad evidence. It simply takes sooooo long to recover from pulling something like that, and PW is already pushing it with the sit in the corner thing. Yes, you have Order in the Court, but that requires a bar and may not always be there. Therefore, my buff to PW is simply just that, get rid of the bad evidence. The meat can stay since it’s somewhat beneficial and you don’t have to waste a motion throwing the damn thing. There are other problems with Phoenix Wright, such as his ‘ultimate form’ being on a timer, but y’know, that’s at least something people can work with more than bad evidence.
Ryu…I’m not sure on Ryu. On paper he seems fine. But I think the main problem with Ryu isn’t that he’s bad. Just that he’s incredibly lackluster. Like some others I’m going to mention, he simply doesn’t have enough tools, damage, or ways to open up people regularly. He’s got some trickery, some damage, and some tools. So lets give him something. Again, I have a suggestion rather than anything definite. Let Ryu be able to get a combo from his Shoryuken L. People were able to get that sort of thing in other SF games if I recall, and while it may have just been another DP, this is Marvel, you get combos from everything. Giving him an Invincible move that starts up fast, cancels to safety with paying a bar, and gives a combo. Sounds a bit like Haggar, doesn’t it? Haggar with Zoning, beams, tastsu trickery, an overhead. Yeah, there could be something here.
Tron has damage. Lots and lots and lots of damage. That’s pretty much it. She’s more or less on the cusp of being decent in my mind just because of that. So to compensate, all we need to do is increase her getting in powers. Her air grab is good and her air moves are good. Lets improve her high/low mixup game. Make her jL come out fast enough for instant overheads. It won’t combo, but that’s what assists are for.
Chun-Li is another one of those characters who is hard to judge. Most list her as god awful at worst or irrelevant at best. But then you got Brian Kasugano who proves there is something there, but buried very, very deep. Her speed and mobility are both nice. Her damage is piss poor but her supers are good and giving her damage feels like a mistake anyways. Her main problem is that she has NOTHING respect-worthy. Her normals are OK at best, her specials are meh to nice, she has no range and she doesn’t have anything to get past swords or any other big hitbox, so she gets outprioritized a lot. I’d probably first make her confirms a bit easier so as to get more people involved with her, then…I don’t know. Frankly I’m stumped. Perhaps a dive kick or something of the like. But like Ryu, the tools she does have are OK at best and nothing really screams WATCH OUT FOR ME.
Poor Hsien-Ko may be the worst character in Marvel. Nothing really seems to be going her way. Except a loopable super. And it’s all because of her extremely, extremely, EXTREMELY low mobility. It’s so easy for even Haggar to just keepaway from her and be safe. Gold Armor is nice and all, but again, she needs to be able to catch people. Opening up people isn’t TERRIBLE since she has somewhat decent grabs and a few tricks, but she could benefit from a little more. I think she’d benefit most from more moves to cancel from. Primarily her dash and her…spinning blades thing in the air with a Chinese name. If you could cancel both early, it would increase the power of the left/right mixup she could have and I perceive that would be enough as far as opening people up. Now on to mobility. In conjunction with the early cancel on spinny blade move, remove most of the startup for it so that you can actually use it to approach and chase.
Shuma is like a mix between Ryu and Hsien-Ko, except Mystic Smash is actually pretty decent as chaser compared to Chinese Name, well at least the air version. But Shuma neither has speed/mobility nor does he have damage. He has Chaos Dimension, and while that’s good, it’s nowhere near enough, especially with X-23 walking around. I would suggest buffing his speed rather than his damage though, as he does have a LVL3 and I feel as if his combos could be extended the damage would be OK.His normals are very tricky: he has a 6 frame low with great range that confirms well, they’re mostly fast and all safe, though his sH is mad pushblock and punish bait. His Mystic Stare also has some interesting comboability if you can land it too. Improve his wave dash, his walk speed, and give him some other form of air control. My suggestion is to give him an 8-way air dash, and let him be able to dash cancel his Mystic Smash, as well as the speed boosts I mentioned above.
Ghost Rider is another odd ball. He does his job, gets damage, he’s low mobility but that’s fine for him. But there’s something missing. He can’t deal with zoners well and vs rushdown is hit/miss. Let Zoners have this win, he can more or less fight them OK ish. But about rush, what to do. He has option select Heartless spire which is nice for ground, and his launcher for air. So what to do? Well, frankly, he needs to be able to escape and renew the chase. Give him a teleport, but make it slow and unabuseable. Other than that I really feel like he just needs to be used more.
Oh Iron Fist, you are love by Justin Wong and no one else. The man has damage to be sure. He has speed to back it up too, but he simply cannot open up people. His grab game is ass, he has no left/right and only barely has a high/low. His air control is poor, but he does have Spirit of the Dragon, which I believe is a good AA if nothing else. We need to give him SOMETHING. A grounded overhead should solve left/right, especially if it were far reaching. That would combo well with his ground dash. As for his air control, give him a double jump and go from there. And for the love of the character, give him at least one more normal move that hits low, his cL perhaps.
Sentinel really only needs one buff. Actually he needs several, but people have been making Sentinel work so something must be right with him. Make his jH much faster on startup so he isn’t so much grab bait anymore.
And that’d be it for buffs. Now for the nerfs. Given how many I listed off, there’s only a handful of ‘real’ nerfs, one to Zero, one to Vergil, one to Morrigan. I don’t plan on nerfing them into the ground to the point of uselessness, and the strategies they have going on right are unique and awesome, so it’s more or less finding some way to keep them from wrecking while still letting them do what they do.
First, Vergil. Vergil was always a stronger character until recently, when ‘sick vergil combos’ were discovered. Swords was always a good Hyper, but their existence caused heavy levels of damage scaling, so they were fairly balanced. However, I don’t think nerfing Vergil’s overall damage is the way to go, it’s more or less fine. The issue is how damn protected he gets with them on and how easy it is to turn New Oroboros into a max damage kill combo. Again, I don’t really feel like nerfing the defense is the way to go, though it certainly can be. For me, the answer is simple: Swap the Shooting Swords with the Spiral Swords. Vergil spends 1 meter for the hyper and Shooting Swords come out, then spends another to turn it into Spiral Swords. It keeps the combos, but can disrupt timing. In addition, while Shooting Swords may have equally damaging combos the trade off is that he’s no longer protected by the Spirals. Seems fair to me
Zero is one of the safest characters running around because of Buster Shot LVL3. Again, I don’t think nerfing the Buster is the way to go. Go after something far, far, far more important: Lightning. Change it from a soft knockdown to something that causes a lot of hitstun instead, thereby adding a ‘flippout’ time. Zero’s main source of damage, the Lightning Loops, will be cut short. He can still fish and probably do extended combos, but as long as he can’t OHKO easily, I believe people won’t be so pissy about him. I could be wrong of course as I see why people would still be mad, but again, I feel the Lightning Loops are what really push him into ‘need nerfs’ territory.
Finally Morrigan. Since this new strategy is more or less unexplored, I don’t want to nerf it too hard, but still. First, take away meter gain, that’s a given. Not sure how I feel about The Sisters after that(though I will say reduce the hitstun so juggling becomes a bit harder), but I will say this: reduce Shell Kick Priority. It’s the unsung hero of Morrigan because of how easily it just ignores stuff. Morrigan can still have frame 1 Flight cancels and the maze and whatnot, since that’s a strong strategy, but still, building meter while juggling 7 100K fireballs in a row? That’s a bit much.
That’s all the major changes. I might throw a little smaller change here/there, like causing up-graple to scale with Spencer, but past that, nothing significant
there’s an easy way to fix the TAC infinite without touching TAC (although I personally think it should be reworked entirely, that’s a much bigger project). All they need to do is clean up the ‘hey did they land?’ check?
I would nerf Hsien-Ko’s dash such that she no longer moves forward. She just disappears and reappears in the same spot.
With Wesker’s air teleport recovery frames.
nova needs to get beat with haggars pipe
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Sir, you are woefully misinformed. Chun-Li has a meter neutral bread and butter combo that nets her 715,300 solo. Her problem is that she has no reliable way to approach the opponent from half screen and actually use it. She is completely dependent on beam/projectile assists to accomplish this because Kikoken is so damn bad. Adding Hazanshu as a new move and speeding up Kikoken would fix her.
Yeah damage isn’t really that much of a problem for Chun-Li. I do agree that she has nothing respect-worthy though. EX SBK would be… but projectiles, sword normals, and well placed normals beat it out. It needs more invincibility to really be scary. But her major problem is just getting in and that’s what I would like addressed.
If she can’t land a BNB reliably then there’s no point to it. There’s a difference to what can be done and what realistically is actually done. Extended Chun combos often use EX SBK for it’s low minimum damage scaling and Kikosho at max scaling is also pretty damaging. The trade off is the tighter execution. 'Sides, I said not to buff her damage anyways. I’ve seen Brian combos. Damage can be done but is often either scaled hard by Legs, confirms are a off, position on screen messes stuff up somehow, or a lot of meter is blown. Shuma combos are ‘damaging’ in the same sense(he can link hypers and do 900K on his own outside his LVL3), but them existing and actually landing them are two different things.
If they ever balanced the game I just hope they don’t take the fun out of it and also not make any poor choices. I honestly think they should just focus on the low/mid tier characters while slight nerfing the top tier characters.
Then by your logic, all of Chun-Li’s combos are pointless because she has no reliable approach options outside of an assist. *This is what I am trying to tell you. *She needs buffs to make her approach game more viable. Everything else about her is fine.
Again, didn’t I say that? She has decent speed and triple jumps, so her mobility is fine, but she lacks anything to work with once she gets into range, making her approach on the unsafe side since so many people can just smack her out of it. It’s why I recommended a Dive Kick or something of the sort, something to make her approach feared and respected. I’m not sure on mixups, but I believe her high/low game is pretty good because of how her dash functions, so that’s fine.
What does Chun get without the 2 hcf motions in the combo?
Lets discuss giving Morrigan’s priority buffs to X-23 along with startup invincibility on her mirage feints so they can be used on reaction to projectiles.