Are you guys talking about the lighting loop? thats the only zero thing i can think of thats hard to do
And even tho that exists no one ever goes for it in tournaments…
EvilToaster posted a vid breaking 1 million with zero + assists from corner to corner with 1 bar. DHC for more damage (Dante followups for example). Lightning loop not used in that combo.
X-23 and Zero really aren’t that far off in power if you consider everything both can do. It’s just X-23 has to do a bit more than ram invincible shit down people’s face that converts into TOD’s or invincible resets.
For one I was more so justifying how X-23 is and still will be capable of what Zero supposedly won’t be able to do in Ultimate anymore. Which is kill one character in one combo and then on top of that if she has enough meter afterwards basically GUARANTEE the death of the 2nd character. Not like Wolverine where it’s a mix up, you just lose the 2nd character. All it requires is burning XF1/2 and having 3 meters at the end of killing the 1st which is a fine investment considering the tone down of level 3 XF in Ultimate any way. X-23 hit box and zoning wise has to be at the level she is at this point because people are figuring out a lot of death trap situations with meter+XF+assists where if she was buffed she would basically be broken. XF1/2 tone downs may limit her ability a bit to do this as an XF1 character on higher healths but with XF2 it should be the same bullshit. Her limitations on offense and zoning pretty much keep her from completely running the game by herself. She’s basically designed to take the fight out of teams when you set things up with her. Just like Zero is designed to take the fight out of opponents by getting near them and ramming invincible shit in their face.
X-23 is also completely faster character than Zero and can get past zone considerably easier than he can so her strengths over Zero aren’t just in the cheesy 2 character kills aspect either. She has a real wave dash (the best one in the game), talon attack + assists allow her to close the gap instantly on any slight down time in a zone and Weapon X Prime basically gets her close if she wants to at the cost of having to turn on XF or safe DHC if it doesn’t hit. When she turns on XF (especially XF2) she moves at such a speed where she will just get in before most zoning tactics can zone her out any way. The main reason Zero just sits on everybody once he gets in is definitely because his ability to approach (at least in Vanilla) is slower and more of a grind than it can be with X-23.
The being able to get in issue is the main thing Zero players complain about and justly so. If Zero was able to get in better than the other pixie characters he would be broken. Zero basically is broken at close range but is balanced by sudden limitations that make it more of a risk to get within his “broken” range in people’s faces. This is why all of his specials can now be cancelled into buster shot. This gives you another big fear factor from a range that allows you to more safely use your specials to close the gap now that you most likely won’t be killing people in one combo anymore unless you turn on XF or have a ton of meter.
Zero has been winning a lot of local tournaments for a while in the same way that Dante has. Dante is kinda like Zero in that he isn’t exactly the point character a lot of the times on major winning teams but he’s always somewhere within the top 3 to 8 of a major as a point character.
Dante has had a bit more success at the major level than Zero simply because he has more options that close the gap suddenly than Zero does. With that…Zero pretty much controls the game when he gets in close range basically beating everybody in the game including the other top tiers at close range. The only thing holding him back is the get in of course which is basically required in Vanilla since he can still TOD.
The majority of characters in the game (especially the ones that are high tier) are designed in the way where they have something that is just basically stupid or broken but is balanced by some glaring limitation. The characters that make up the top tier are characters who’s limitations just aren’t limited enough. Zero is supposed to have trouble getting in but if he gets in he’s more stupid than Wolverine to deal with and can TOD you off any randomness. Wesker is supposed to be reset driven and be limited by not having an air dash but has 1.1 million health and access to multiple teleports. Magneto is supposed to be based more around offense than Doom or Iron Man but also zones better than both of them. Dante is supposed to be a character that can control mid range and suddenly close the gap when he needs to but hammer is so powerful that people can never get in on him to begin with. Wolverine is supposed to also have trouble gettin in since he has a bunch of moves that you must burn XF on to punish or punish extremely creatively…except he has invincible berserker slash so he doesn’t actually have trouble getting in etc.
Just to put that out there the characters I hate the most basically include characters that dont win tournaments regularly (except for Wolverine). That just shows how untapped this game is though.
Yeah sure…you could just pick Wesker but then of course you’ll most likely find limitations with Wesker that Zero doesn’t have and then just go back to Zero or find someone else. Wesker is losing health and will no longer have easy mode gun shot teleport combos so he will be much more reliant on assists to complete his offense than before. Wesker and Wolverine also both dont have self installed assists that cover their whiffs or invincible normals. Wolverine no longer having a tool that instantly closes the gap means X-23 will be able to get in more easily than him now.
Use your character’s weaknesses as an incentive to be creative and find things that will work around their weaknesses. You’ll find better results that way than dwelling on the few weaknesses they do have.
Marn does it in tourneys pretty regularly now. I know at least 3 local Zero players including my brother that can do it pretty regularly even off of basic shit like air throws and kill off 900 health characters pretty regularly from the air throw. One of those Zero players also pretty much swept Ryry at that tournament also and won without going to losers (with just basic shit like resets off sogenmu, didn’t even TOD or loop much).
(Ugh. Learning to wavedash on pad properly is going to be so damn annoying.)
Even just dicking around in training mode as always, I realized how damn glad I will be when Ryu can (wave)dash properly in UMvC3 because right now his :rdp:+:atk: pretty much useless outside of the corner and even there it has dubious use. I don’t know why gave him such horrible dash if they specifically put that move in from 3S and gave it a wall bounce since it’s not like it does any more damage when canceled a Shinkuu Hadouken when compared canceling from a Hadouken or Tatsumaki, at least when you can’t follow it up with anything from mid-screen. “Ironically”, even if they hadn’t fixed his dash, he could probably have gotten around this problem by Denjin Mode canceling out of the kick, though that obviously costs one bar in and of itself, so…
Uh, no one was questioning your skill; just your seeming victim complex for a character that was already top tier and whom only got better, you’re still saying he needs more.
Um…that applies to pretty much every character as well as aside from probably Dante and maybe C. Viper & Amatersu. Sure, Zero had lower life than a lot of other characters, but considering how easy it is/was to kill all but like six characters in one combo in MvC3 even without X-Factor for some characters. Considering that Zero was one of the characters who could TOD people, he already had a leg up there.
(I need clarification about the “high health/high damage” line since I tell whether’s that supposed to be “characters with either high health or high damage who can zone or have hitboxes that can contend with Zero”, of which there are few, or “characters with high health AND high damage who can zone or have hitboxes that can with Zero”, of which there are pretty much none. If you mean the latter, then literally the only zoning characters with high health and damage are Chris, who only really has landmines as options against Zero, and Taskmaster, whom I’m not sure Zero any especial trouble if the Zero is not being utterly predictable. So, yeah, I need clarification here, especially since as it is, I’m pretty sure Dante is the only person who can maybe contend with Zero’s hitboxes and I’m pretty sure Zero’s hitboxes active faster since his unbeatable Z-Saber has less range.)
However, that you’re honestly essentially saying that “but people who are good with zoners can actually keep me out!” like it’s a bad thing, especially when zoning as a whole is rather a less viable strategy in MvC3, is a prime example of what I was talking with your posts coming off as entitled and even whiny. Never mind that you’re playing a character who has access to one of the fastest, safest and most durable regular projectiles in that the game that he can charge up while blocking and still being able to push block, that’s usable from the air and causes hard knockdown allowing you to get in on said zoner.
…
While I was gone, it would appear that DevilJin 01 basically addressed this and everything else, so I’ll stop here, especially since I’ve been up for more than 24 hours at this point.
This is the Zero player you were talking about right DJ? Yeah, Miller is a real beast. He’s pretty fun to watch as well.
Yeah. Miller Genuine Zero. LOL. Plays Zero the way you should. Safe resets that can’t be counter poked into more safe shit until you die. He’s going to be able to pick up Ultimate Zero pretty much no problem.
I’m not sure how much Iron Man has changed since PAX but the PAX Iron Man made me cry. Could do nothing I used to be able to in terms of tri-dashing and Air H reps. Also it seems that in the recent build someone reported they nerfed his Uni-beam back to vanilla or something along those lines. Not sure wtf is going on with Iron Man but I fear for him since hes a mainstay on my team.
With a DHC that’s an easily over 1 million from even suboptimal hitconfirms. All you need is two assists that allow him to do the Steb ender.
x-factor kills off of airgrabs (or ground grab in the corner).
can do it from super jump height.
This is not mentioning his ridiculous resets (which is why nobody does these combos I guess?)
Ooooooh yessssss! I really hope this is true.
Basically…nobody is touching you as long as you have solid resets with good assists. It’s the walking mass of hit boxes that happens to be a character on the select screen after all.
After seeing that zero i can honestly say:
Zero + gustaff fire + lockdown assist = cheapest shit in the game LOL
After viscant team of course 
The characters I mentioned would be like Taskmaster, Wesker, She Hulk, etc etc. People he probably has to hit twice to kill and who kill him off any opening. Wesker has really good hitboxes too and his mixups can start from outside of Zero’s effective range so he has tools to fight him, and task masters hitboxes can beat Zero’s as well and all of his combos = 800k or more. She Hulk has trouble getting in but 1 random hit or air throw and Zero is done. I’m not trying to come off as whiny, I mainly came in here to defend him when most of what I see is in fact whining about him lol
Why complain about touch of deaths in Marvel? Nearly any competent player will kill you in one combo and then mix up the incoming character, that’s not something that’s specific to Zero. Health is getting reduced in UMVC3 around the board it seems too so TOD will be even more common I imagine. I feel like any character that has to work to get in should get easier kills.
Re: the lightning loop, I think the reason we don’t see it ALL the time now is that it can be unreliable on some of the bigger characters. I can consistently do it on smaller characters but people like Wesker just seem to fall out of it for some reason. Better to just go for the kill with something else then risk dropping a lightning loop most of the time.
You would say that…
:: trollface ::
I could just reverse that on you then. Why are you complaining about Zero dying in one combo if everybody dies in one combo any way? In Vanilla you have no reason to complain about Zero’s low health because he can kill in one combo any way. Plus that hard knockdown on buster that stops people pressing buttons for free and leads to TOD’s. Oh and those invincible normals and assist + command dash calls that just blow up everything.
In Ultimate…we’ll see what ends up happening but generally you’ll trade killing people in one combo for having an inevitably easier time getting in with all of that buster cancel crap so that’s a fair trade I say.
About the TOD in UMVC3 thing…they’re reducing HSD across the board and further toning down damage off air throws and XF so while there still may be TOD’s it won’t be as common or easy to do as in Vanilla.
As far as I see it the only thing in Ultimate that you can really “defend” about Zero is his low health. Other than that…just like X-23, Akuma and Ammy he has enough game controlling shit to stay where he is on health.
(Ugh. This damn computer. I was almost done with another post again when I had to force Firefox to shut down. I swear if Flash crashes on me one more time…)
On the one hand, I’m rather tempted to see this Miller Genuine Zero guy in action.
On the other hand, I don’t think I need anymore reasons to dislike Zero as it is.
So saying he was an already (stupidly) good character who didn’t need the buffs he got is whining? When you just complained that competent zoning gives Zero actual problems (oh no!) when he’s someone who should have to work to get in because they dominate up-close since otherwise he’d be literally broken/Ivan Ooze Tier? Uh…okay. There’s a reason that even though they buffed Zero, they turned that hard knockdown from his fully charged buster into a soft one.
To me, whining about Zero would be along the lines of saying that he’s such a stupid character to point he and people who play him are scrubby piece of shit since he takes no real skill to play because you will eventually get hit by him 99% of the time if he manages to get close to you. And it’s all too easy for him to get close to you between beam assists and especially with his hard knockdown, highly durable and fast as hell projectile that he can now pseudo-assist himself with.
You know, actual whining, like the same way that people currently bitch about (Dark) Phoenix even though that doesn’t make her go away and they don’t bother to prepare for her even with how prevalent she is? That is whining given neither character is going away, especially since the largest problems with them relate more to fundamental things like hitboxes or, in (Dark) Phoenix’s case, how stupidly easy it is to get meter even though Capcom mercifully had the foresight to not give you meter for whiffing things anymore.
Calling him stupid doesn’t mean that we don’t have to be prepared to deal with him (or Phoenix) as it is and even moreso in UMvC3 where he got buffs, especially when calling him “stupid” is pretty true since all the top tier have stupid shit (which is why they’re top tier).
All people are saying is, as stated above, is that Zero is already a great character and he didn’t really need anything UMvC3 seems like it’s going to very generously give him. That’s it. I don’t see what’s so difficult to grasp about that or how it comes off as whining, much less whining to the point where you need to “defend” him despite the fact that your only defense thus far has been “well, Zero’s totally beatable, you guys, and a few other characters are just as good as him.”
Yeah, no shit. Thanks for telling us something none of us knew even though none of us were saying he was unbeatable or that there weren’t other characters who were as good as him if not better; all we’ve been saying is that he has a lot of advantages as it is, one of which is being obnoxiously difficult to hit due to his absurd strength of his hitboxes, which is why he was necessarily a glass cannon in the first place (and yet he got one of only two health buffs of among all the characters going into UMvC3). Just because he hasn’t shown up in tournaments because other, similarly stupid characters have easier, more consistent and/or lazier shit doesn’t make him any less good overall, just overshadowed (for some reason) which is a marked difference.
Um, I wasn’t. While I fully admit that I find touch of deaths stupid in most instances, since to me outplaying someone shouldn’t come down to being able to hit them once and winning (ignoring any execution arguments), I never said anything about that. You brought up TODs first (well, technically second after that Taskmaster one), which is why I subsequently asked why exactly you thought Zero deserved to keep them with all the other he’s getting, especially when not every character has TODs outside of X-Factor; your answer was basically “well, he’ll have to actually reset people now” like that was something he was ever bad at, which is why I found/find it so unsatisfactory.
And, hell, if we’re going to even trying to argue touch of deaths were prevalent in Marvel, the only game they were really prevalent in, IIRC, was the very first versus game, X-Men vs. Street Fighter, where pretty much everyone had broken shit and infinites; maybe Marvel vs. Capcom 1 as well since I freely admit I never played that one much and I never really played it seriously.
Even in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, pretty much no character could reliably touch of death you aside from Cable, Juggernaut, Colossus and maybe Hulk (I forget). Cable needed two or three bars of meter and the latter three couldn’t touch the god tier since they were all bulky and slow as hell–Piotr had the best bet, but surprisingly people didn’t use him that much despite the fact that he was more than decent, probably because his supers were suicidal if you missed them/did them openly and pretty much all of his 100% stuff was corner only. The combo demons with infinites like Magneto or Iron Man/War Machine pretty much never killed you with the damage from their infinites in of themselves, but rather usually reset you once mid-infinite and killed you that way; not that they couldn’t kill you with their infinites, just that the damage from them scaled so heavily it usually wasn’t worth it unless you wanted to waste time or demoralize someone even further by showing off your tip-top execution.
This is rather marked contrast to MvC3 where people tend to have Juggernaut-like strength despite having Magneto-esque mobility. So now, not only is it easy for you to get killed in one combo even outside of X-Factor despite the damage scaling and “hit stun reduction”, but it’s also easy for you to get tagged by the hit (or throw) that led to your death in the first place, especially with the fact OTG is basically guaranteed now since you can’t roll early.
And yet I never was (openly) complaining about that since it’s something I’ve tried to come to grips since I still play MvC3 and like playing it more or less.
Could it be better? Yes. Am I going to mention that at every possible opportunity, including places where it’s completely irrelevant to argument (like here, initially) like other people who bitch endlessly about games they hate? No.
Besides, as DevilJin points out right above me, this second paragraph of yours belies your first one. All the people you mention can kill him, sure, but like others have pointed out already, those three can generally kill anyone in one go if they really, really want to, even outside of X-Factor. Well, maybe not She-Hulk, but she has the nastiest resets of three, so it’s effectively the same thing.
Anyway, given that you still don’t seem to get this–and I try to say that with as little condescension as possible–and even though I tend to like destroying people’s eyes with wall of texts, I grow weary of these encounters. I’m almost always fine with agreeing to disagree (especially since it’s only a damn game), so I figure that’s what will end up happening here ultimately. If you want to respond to this, I suppose I’ll probably respond back once or twice more, but after that, I’m done. If keep coming to come to the same separate conclusion or are still unable to at least see each others’ points as legitimate, I highly doubt we ever will and thus I’d stop clogging up this thread with anymore Zero talk.
As an aside, I have to say that I’ve noticed that Wesker’s falling hit box seems kinda weird as well. That was with my mediocre Doom, though, since I don’t play Zero, but something seems off about Wesker and a few other characters. Not sure what it is or if it even concretely exists though and instead is just due to my sub-par execution of things.
Damn that’s a lot of text… you win.
Here’s my Zero if you want to see me body / get bodied. 43 seconds in or so: http://www.twitch.tv/sctourney/b/296455665
Lol
heres how I see it. Next time you wonder to yourself “man, I wish Zero had some better mobility!” take a good long look at Haggar, Shuma Gorath and Hsien-ko.
look! all the sudden you’re in a better mood!
For the last time health is NOT getting reduced in UMVC3 around the board, in fact it has been proven that Zero is getting a slight health buff. Almost everyone is getting their combo ability nerfed and TODs will still be possible but a lot rarer and difficult to pull off, in particularly for Zero that is getting a lot of nerfs with his hitstun. Some people are really underestimating how badly characters like Zero, Dante and Magneto are getting hit in their damage output. So at the moment whether or not Zero is getting buffed is up for debate, he’s receiving both nerfs and buffs and he WILL play very differently in UMvC3.
Hsien-ko can move?